Yesterday's Mass Shooting.
- Thread starter Unclebaldrick
- Start date
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
New York man found guilty of murder after 20-year-old woman was shot and killed when car turned in wrong driveway
Kevin Monahan was found guilty of second-degree murder Tuesday for shooting and killing a woman who was a passenger in a car that mistakenly drove up his driveway in rural New York last year, according to Katherine Thompson, deputy chief clerk of Washington County Supreme and County Courts.
Monahan had pleaded not guilty to charges of murder in the second degree, reckless endangerment and tampering with physical evidence in the death of 20-year-old Kaylin Gillis on April 15, 2023. He was convicted of all charges after about two hours of deliberations.
Monahan shot at the vehicle when it accidentally turned into his driveway while the occupants looked for a friend’s house in Washington County, roughly 55 miles north of Albany. Gillis died a short time after the shooting.
District Attorney Tony Jordan will seek a maximum sentence of 25 years to life when Monahan is sentenced on March 1.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Live updates: James and Jennifer Crumbley, parents of Michigan school shooter, sentencing
Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of Michigan high school shooter Ethan Crumbley, were sentenced to 10-15 years in prison after being found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Follow for live news updates.
A very Christian sentence that judges and punishes and doesn’t make the world a safer place. imo.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
There is some talk in that article about this case being part of an effort to expand the circle of people held accountable for mass shootings. If only we could find a way to include lawmakers who act as if thoughts and prayers are the most they can do. But that's another matter. The judge said holding parents who knew of the danger, had been warned ahead of the act and failed to take proactive preventive action should be held accountable "as a deterrent" for others. I don't know if there is data to support the idea of deterrence but the judge seems to think there is.Live updates: James and Jennifer Crumbley, parents of Michigan school shooter, sentencing
Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of Michigan high school shooter Ethan Crumbley, were sentenced to 10-15 years in prison after being found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Follow for live news updates.edition.cnn.com
A very Christian sentence that judges and punishes and doesn’t make the world a safer place. imo.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I don't know all the details but the defense attorney claimed there is no evidence the parents knew about his plans. Regardless, this 'wider' punishing seems another form of more severe punishment, which has proven to be ineffective when it comes to reducing crime rates. I don't see how locking up the parents for over a decade is going to change the many factors that do play a role. Never liked the 'we need to set an example' (and therefor longer sentence) argument either. They get punished for what someone else did, and then the sentence is based on what others might do or neglect to do. Christian free-willy way of non-addressing the root issues.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
Just because what you said made it pop in my head...
Isn't that how terrorist cells work? The cell might get training, weapons, radicalization from a different cell, but don't necessarily know what the other cell is going to do with it. His parents radicalized him, armed him, and covered for him when the school was telling them he was a danger. People can get in trouble if their dog kills someone, I don't see much difference in this.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a false equivalence, of a different order. Weapon training and radicalizing is just being a good republican is it not?
One of the arguments for the sentences was the lack of remorse. Which too fits my point. Assholes get longer sentences than people whose parents instilled some decency and morals in them. It's not like I care about the parents. Locking people up that aren't a threat to society instead of taking drastic measures to prevent the next shooting doesn't address the actual threat to society.
Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
I haven’t delved into the facts of the case at all but I would have to ask “what were the warning signs and were they blatantly ignored”? If the answer is yes, then punishment is warranted IMO, incarceration is how some people are punished.
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
How are the parents not a threat to society? They provided a 15 year old with a firearm and failed to ensure it was secured safely, especially after getting called into the school. It would be different if it was a 18 year old that would be legal age and bought the firearm themselves, but they were responsible for securing the firearm.
I get what you're saying about the assholes getting longer sentences, but showing remorse and/or accepting responsibility points towards rehabilitation, does it not? It would also be a clue it trying to decipher intent when a crime occurs.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I read through articles on the case a while ago and don't want to do so again. I came away from those articles thinking the parents knew ahead of time that their kid was a threat, not only because of his home life but because of what the school told them was happening there. The standard that had to be met at trial is:
To convict someone of manslaughter through gross negligence, a prosecutor in Michigan must prove that the defendant knew of a potentially dangerous situation, that they could have averted harm through ordinary care, and that the disastrous harm to others presented by the circumstances would have been apparent to an ordinary mind — what the attorneys call “foreseeability.”
That standard was met through testimony and evidence presented by the prosecution before the jury with the defense given the opportunity to challenge the evidence and the jury decided to convict.
Regarding the idea that they are being punished for what their kid did. Yes, they are. The kid is under their supervision and there is a reason why kids aren't held to the same standard as adults. It's the responsibility of parents to supervise their kid. They bought him guns despite several warnings from the school and others who warned of threatening behavior right up to the day of the shootings.
So, IMO justice was done. With responsibility comes accountability. I'm dog tired of people shuffling off responsibility when it comes to gun deaths. If anybody deserves harsh treatment, it's not just those who pulled the trigger but also people whose irresponsible acts lead to harm and death from guns. We can't just shake our heads and say thoughts and prayers. no more.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I’d have more respect for this judge’s decision if even one legislator were currently awaiting trial for the Jan 6 conspiracy.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
Stuff like this that the mom said he just needs to hide it better or something like that
From the AP article:https://apnews.com/article/james-crumbley-jennifer-crumbley-oxford-school-shooting-e5888f615c76c3b26153c34dc36d5436
doublejj
Well-Known Member
Former assistant principal charged with child neglect in case of 6-year-old boy who shot teacher
Court documents filed Tuesday reveal little about the criminal case against Parker, listing only the counts and a description of the felony charge. It alleges that Parker “did commit a willful act or omission in the care of such students, in a manner so gross, wanton and culpable as to show a reckless disregard for human life.”
apnews.com
Court documents filed Tuesday reveal little about the criminal case against Parker, listing only the counts and a description of the felony charge. It alleges that Parker “did commit a willful act or omission in the care of such students, in a manner so gross, wanton and culpable as to show a reckless disregard for human life.”
Former assistant principal charged with child neglect in case of 6-year-old boy who shot teacher
A former assistant principal at Richneck Elementary School has been indicted in the case of a 6-year-old boy who shot and wounded his teacher in Virginia last year.
apnews.com
doublejj
Well-Known Member
Ohio to purchase mobile homes to train public school staff in firearms
www.theguardian.com
Ohio to purchase mobile homes to train public school staff in firearms
In a first, the state has purchased shoot houses designed for indoor gun training to help school staff ‘respond to active shooter’
www.theguardian.com
BarnBuster
Virtually Unknown Member
"The visualization below illustrates these rates for the country and each state between 1979 and 2021. Select firearm deaths, firearm suicides, firearm homicides, total suicides, or total homicides from the drop-down box and hover or tap on a line to identify individual states."
Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
I didn’t have to delve to deep to see that the parents were partly responsible for the tragedy. Not sure why the punishment was even questioned really. Our/your justice system punishes by incarceration until they come up with a different method ……. Stasis perhaps
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Yes some people. Some more than others. Especially in former colonies in north and south america. How’s that working out?
List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
From the article I posted:
"They are the first parents to be held criminally responsible for a mass school shooting committed by their child"
Seems fair, since it's a first, to question it. Especially with 10-15 years sentences. Not like this is a normal sentence.
@Fogdog: thanks for the summary, I only skimmed through the article I posted, which was about determining the sentences. I do not question the process of the parent's having been found guilty of a criminal offense. I'm talking about the proportionality and the arguments presented for the 10-15 years.
I have zero trust in all parents responsibly supervising their kids to a point that prevents the inevitable extremes. So I consider it the responsibility of the government - and thus the people putting them there - and thus the authorities, to prevent people from buying guns (other than for hunting, sports, and job related purposes, and only after rigorous checks). Anything else is just inevitable symptoms, asking for problems. Responsible parents and responsible gunownership for everyone... in what universe?
Whenever I fail to make a point I tend to come up with analogies, without going reductio ad absurdum in a fallacious way. It’s hard in this case, cause the reality is the absurdum. “That's like allowing everyone to buy guns and then locking up parents of kids who shoot other kids, for 15 years” should be at most a reductio ad absurdum, an extreme analogy of something that of course doesn’t happen, makes no sense, would be absurd. But then, it happens. Almost half the civilian owned guns are in the US. If there was ever a case of people being a victim of their environment... the parents, as well as the kid and the victims and their parents... Anyone accepting the modern interpretation and application of the 2A, especially those in power, is complicit. More retribution isn’t going to help anyone.
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The problem is them being able to buy guns to give to their kids period. (without the audio of your posts it sounds like the emphasis is not on 'they bought him/ provided 15 y/o guns but on the remaining part of your sentence).
Lady justice is supposed to be blind and treat everyone equal under the law ánd remain consistent. Their past actions not their character or possible future actions should be on trial.
Rehabilitation is one of the goals of punishment that doesn’t seem to apply to this case at all. And 15 years incarceration for the sake of incapacitation, to protect the society, not so much either. That would at least be disproportionate. (People like them are generally speaking a threat to society, sure.) 15 years as denunciation/deterence… I think that‘s the worst argument. The circumstances for all those other messed up parents and kids that led to this tragic situation isn’t going to change by such a harsh sentence. The idea that it can have that effect seems to stem from an emphasis on people having full autonomy no matter the circumstances.
Which leaves the law of Moses: retribution. To satisfy feelings, emotions, a desire for vengeance. Justice? Well, a form of it. All i’m saying extra retribution under the guise of denunciation doesn’t seem right, nor helpful.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
US gun laws are insane in the way they enable this kind of carnage. I've given up on the idea that gun availability is going to be restricted any time soon. It's possible that my punitive attitude stems from frustration with the lax attitudes gun owners demonstrate to these weapons. I don't/won't own a gun because I have no sporting reason to own one and guns homes less safe simply by being there. A preponderance of gun owners and their lobby are the ones most active in protecting their right to own any god damn killing machine they can afford,. So, god damn it. They own this problem, not me. Lock the fucker up when we can prove negligence, which isn't easy.Yes some people. Some more than others. Especially in former colonies in north and south america. How’s that working out?
List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia
From the article I posted:
"They are the first parents to be held criminally responsible for a mass school shooting committed by their child"
Seems fair, since it's a first, to question it. Especially with 10-15 years sentences. Not like this is a normal sentence.
@Fogdog: thanks for the summary, I only skimmed through the article I posted, which was about determining the sentences. I do not question the process of the parent's having been found guilty of a criminal offense. I'm talking about the proportionality and the arguments presented for the 10-15 years.
I have zero trust in all parents responsibly supervising their kids to a point that prevents the inevitable extremes. So I consider it the responsibility of the government - and thus the people putting them there - and thus the authorities, to prevent people from buying guns (other than for hunting, sports, and job related purposes, and only after rigorous checks). Anything else is just inevitable symptoms, asking for problems. Responsible parents and responsible gunownership for everyone... in what universe?
Whenever I fail to make a point I tend to come up with analogies, without going reductio ad absurdum in a fallacious way. It’s hard in this case, cause the reality is the absurdum. “That's like allowing everyone to buy guns and then locking up parents of kids who shoot other kids, for 15 years” should be at most a reductio ad absurdum, an extreme analogy of something that of course doesn’t happen, makes no sense, would be absurd. But then, it happens. Almost half the civilian owned guns are in the US. If there was ever a case of people being a victim of their environment... the parents, as well as the kid and the victims and their parents... Anyone accepting the modern interpretation and application of the 2A, especially those in power, is complicit. More retribution isn’t going to help anyone.
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The problem is them being able to buy guns to give to their kids period. (without the audio of your posts it sounds like the emphasis is not on 'they bought him/ provided 15 y/o guns but on the remaining part of your sentence).
Lady justice is supposed to be blind and treat everyone equal under the law ánd remain consistent. Their past actions not their character or possible future actions should be on trial.
Rehabilitation is one of the goals of punishment that doesn’t seem to apply to this case at all. And 15 years incarceration for the sake of incapacitation, to protect the society, not so much either. That would at least be disproportionate. (People like them are generally speaking a threat to society, sure.) 15 years as denunciation/deterence… I think that‘s the worst argument. The circumstances for all those other messed up parents and kids that led to this tragic situation isn’t going to change by such a harsh sentence. The idea that it can have that effect seems to stem from an emphasis on people having full autonomy no matter the circumstances.
Which leaves the law of Moses: retribution. To satisfy feelings, emotions, a desire for vengeance. Justice? Well, a form of it. All i’m saying extra retribution under the guise of denunciation doesn’t seem right, nor helpful.
What else do you propose we do? The people who prevent enacting laws to do what you recommend are the same ones who are causing a lot of havoc by failing to be a responsible gun owner. Since we can't stop them from buying the gun then they ought to be held accountable for carelessly causing injury or death due to their gun. It might not save lives but it is justice. Since they won't let me enact laws that will save lives then I want lawfully applied justice after the dumbass gets people killed.
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Buying a 15 yo kid w/issues a concealed firearm??? INCOMPETENCE ON STEROIDS,how about taking Junior to the local Rod/Gun Club for target shooting w/a rifle/shotgun and teaching him ALL about gun/safety in the process along w/responsibility as a first step to building esteem in the kid and bonding w/your son.To just throw him his own pistol at 15 yrs old is retarded,WTF were these people thinking??IMO the judge had to hold them responsible for dereliction of duty as parents w/death resulting.I mean a 15 yo w/some issues,probably playing violent video games for yrs.,and they're OK w/giving the kid a pistol??DUH