Where oh where?

Where oh where do all the libertarians come from? what kind of jobs do you guys have? And what turned you all into Libertarians. This is mind bending for me, to see so many greedy individuals all sticking together like a pack of vultures is interesting, so come on, give me a little Bio here. I've pretty much let you guys know where I stand and how I got here, so pony up!

Med,
Your characterization of libertarians as greedy is insulting,at best! It reflects a level of misunderstanding and contempt which appears to be at odds with your purported age.
You are either stunningly ignorant or you purposely misconstrue to such an absurd degree as to avoid any serious discussion of real issues.

It seems you have a preconceived notion that all ganja connoisseurs have to be leftward leaning….as this site demonstrates….this is not necessarily so!
The word prejudice comes to mind.

I agree with Wavels, Med. No suprise there. You continue to disparage anyone who believes in liberty as "greedy." What's more greedy, Med ... a guy who gets up early every day, goes to work, strives for excellence, works 60 to 80 hours a week, accumulates a few assets for himself, raises a family, instills good morals into his children and teaches them to become good productive citizens. OR ... the guy who has an entitlement mentality, quits school in the ninth grade, impregnates several women out of wedlock, goes from job to job and because of a rotten attitude, continues to be fired from each of them ... then when he's desperate, he EXPECTS other's to take care of him with assets he hasn't earned. Whch of the two is the greedy person, Med?

Vi

I agree with Wavels, Med. No suprise there. You continue to disparage anyone who believes in liberty as "greedy." You guys are so fucking hard headed it's pathetic. I ask a simple question: What do you guys do for a living as you all seem to be so fucking greedy and you answer the post with a deriding epetaph. There is no communication with you guys, just a monologue on your part like: Lets tell the dumb bastard the way it is and fuck him because he's too stupid to get it. Hey, I get it. you guys have your own little libertarian club going here and you really Don't like anyone questioning your warped mind set, Well fuck you tooo. I'll be posting anti-lib stuff every day untill the grim reaper gets me, so stay tuned.

Med-

I think that the reason you aren't getting it is that you only understand libertarian thought in theory, not in practice.

I'm 42 years old. I quit high school when I was 16, and I make 30,000 a year. I donate regularly to a charity, as well as side projects when I am able (just this last month I donated 500 dollars to a fellow employee who needed a new prosthetic leg.) I am NOT a self centered or greedy person; but I feel very strongly about defending YOUR right to be self centered and greedy.

Your question about how I became a libertarian really made me think- I really hadn't contemplated my personal political arc, and how I went from a socialist to a libertarian in 20 years. I really do think a lot of it has to do with a natural maturing process that just comes from "living life"; I came to realize that people are by and large responsible for their life situations, and that you cannot save them from themselves. I also realized that I was happiest when not dealing with government in any way shape or form. In 42 years, I have not been served efficiently by any government agency I have ever come into direct contact with. Even outside of government, my experiences with groups of people working together (beauracracies) have been largely unpleasant. I also have gotten in touch with the fact that I like to choose my own values, and I don't want to be coerced by others into activities and projects that they think are important. However, I have found that people as individuals are basically good. Its when they get into groups that things start to go off the rails. Somehow, groups of people are able to spread the concept of responsibility so thin that it evaporates. But individually, people tend to be very responsive and responsible. These experiences have led me to the conclusion that individual responsibility is where the answer is.

I think we view the world very differently. When you talk about a corporation being evil, I can't relate. If you wanted to talk about the individual customer of the corporation being evil, then we might have something to talk about; the individuals who spend money there are the ones responsible for its success. If you talk about an employer being unfair, I can't relate; an employee can go find work elsewhere. The employer/employee relationship is not adversarial, it's cooperative. If anything, the employee has more of the power in that relationship. I sincerely believe that (with rare exception) people responsible for their own situations. If I saw a grossly disfunctional system, I might feel differently. But I don't. We have some problems, sure- the biggest one being what we do with our drug addicted and mentally ill (we call them "homeless.") But even our poorest citizens can only be called "poor" in relation to the megarich. Things are okay dude, really.

Lastly, I'm not a pure libertarian. I happen to think that the health care system needs some fixing, and it's going to take government intervention to do that. I'm also a little uncomfortable with some libertarian thinking when it comes to the environment. But I call myself a libertarian because it is the system I MOST identify with. You might be getting a little hung up on the label.

Now all of those opinions can change over time. I expect some of them will. But right now, they make sense to me. And I'm not a greedy rich person, I'm a lower middle class dude, and a really nice guy. Just ask me.

Thanks dank, You've enlightened me quite a bit on your philosophy. If the other libs would have just done the same without spanking me, all would be well in Med town. I must respectfully disagree with some of your tenets, most specially the corporate thing. The power to rip someones life apart by firing them just because you (the boss) don't like the color of their tie is extremely repugnant to me. I'll also preface this with the fact that there are times when an employee needs to be fired, but random firings or layoffs to increase the bottom line for investors is a scandalous offering! Also runaway corporate profits while trimming the workforce, paying ridiculous salaries to Managers etc. I don't agree that such powerful entities as large corporations should be without some restrictions on their operations. I also believe in individual freedom and where I am in life makes me happy. What libs fail to see is the fact that one persons freedom might impinge on another mans rights. There needs to be government controls on the society at large or we'd have anarchy. You must also see that at this point in our history (US) we are basically a functioning Plutocracy. A society where the few (Rich Men) control everything from the top down. Now if you call that freedom, I'll have to disagree with you. And just to set your mind at ease, I'm also a nice guy. I just hate to be talked down to by some extremests that really don't have a viable plan except anarchy! Again thanks for answering my question. The other Libs seem to have some dark secrets or something, anyway, I'll keep up the fight against anarchy by exposing libertarianism for what it is! A huge bag of bull championed by rich plutocrats. Maybe you're the exception, I hope so!

Danky sez ...

"The employer/employee relationship is not adversarial, it's cooperative. If anything, the employee has more of the power in that relationship."

Trying to convince Med of this would be an impossible task, Danky. I suspect that, as a devout union member, he never gave one second, or one inch to the job that he wasn't paid for. And ... he probably whined about what he WAS paid for and how much he was paid. His posts that relate to employee/employer relationships are all the same ... the bosses taking advantge of the worker. Its the same old communist song. Mao Rules!

Vi

"Quick call the asylum, the escapee is up to it again, putting his ideas into anothers realm and then raving against them! Is there no sanity here. What you think I think Doesn't count for squat! I won't even try to defend against this insanity!"

This rant is just more of your totalitarian thinking, Med. The Nazis burned the books written by the authors they didn't agree with. Stalin threw his opposition into mental hospitals and called them insane. Again ... you are nothing more than a Red.

Vi

Vi says:This rant is just more of your totalitarian thinking, Med. The Nazis burned the books written by the authors they didn't agree with. Stalin threw his opposition into mental hospitals and called them insane. Again ... you are nothing more than a Red.

Well the insanity is at a boil, were down to name calling now! And you would lower the minimum wage or abolish it. call the asylum he's escaped again!

medicineman said:

The power to rip someones life apart by firing them just because you (the boss) don't like the color of their tie is extremely repugnant to me. I'll also preface this with the fact that there are times when an employee needs to be fired, but random firings or layoffs to increase the bottom line for investors is a scandalous offering! Also runaway corporate profits while trimming the workforce, paying ridiculous salaries to Managers etc. I don't agree that such powerful entities as large corporations should be without some restrictions on their operations. I also believe in individual freedom and where I am in life makes me happy. What libs fail to see is the fact that one persons freedom might impinge on another mans rights.

Click to expand...

I just can't buy into the idea that firing somebody "rips somebody's life apart." But some of that might have to do with the changing workforce- you are a generation older than me, and from a time when people worked their whole life for a single company, and getting fired could fuck up your retirement and shit. Nowadays, its really unusual to not change employers every few years. That point aside though- you might as well say that the employees are capable of destroying the company willy-nilly by walking out for no reason.

Your last point, that libs fail to see that one person's freedom might impinge upon others, is really inaccurate- they are KEENLY aware of this, and it is exactly the reason why they are hesitant to extend "rights" not delineated in the constitution. It's almost impossible to give one person a "right" without limiting somebody else's rights at the same time; you can't give me the "right" to make at least 5.50 an hour without taking away my rights to freely enter contract. It comes down to which right we value more as people. The libertarian thinker is almost always going to go with whatever "right" offers the largest degree of individual freedom.

I think that the founders were also keenly aware of this phenomena, and structured the Bill of Rights accordingly. It is interesting that the Bill of Rights is really mis-named; it should be called the "Bill of Restrictions." If you read the individual articles, they don't grant any rights at all; instead, they limit the right of government. The first amendment doesn't grant the press freedom; it says that government has no right to limit the press. All of the articles are structured in the negative, basically saying "the government cannot.....(fill in the blank.)" Anyway, I am personally VERY aware of the dynamics around doling out "rights."

On a completely different note, I just picked up an old Social Distortion CD. Damn those guys were good. Ya'll should get some old school Social D.

That point aside though- you might as well say that the employees are capable of destroying the company willy-nilly by walking out for no reason. There is usually a good reason if employees give up their hourly pay to show the employers they have some power. To give all the rights to the employer and none to the employee is from what I can gather here, the libertarian way. It has been proven over and over by history that the employer will take as much away from the employee as he can get away with. And that is what I believe this site is all about. trying to convince people to just give the rich their freedoms and everything will be just fine, while history has proven time after time that is false. That is where we have evolved from. You guys would put us back to the dark ages with serfdom and slavery, where all the laws benefited the wealthy and fucked over the poor even worse than today. To argue with you guys is rather pointless so I'll not argue. I'll just post!

Dankdude ...

That was an excellent, insightful post you just made there.

Med ...

Over the past five years, I've actually witnessed Dankdude transform himself into a genius. Maybe there's hope for you too.

Med sez ...

"You guys would put us back to the dark ages with serfdom and slavery, where all the laws benefited the wealthy and fucked over the poor even worse than today. To argue with you guys is rather pointless so I'll not argue. I'll just post!

You can't argue truth with wind, Med. And ... if you want to see how your brand of politics would lead us back to the Dark Ages ... read the book "Anthem" by Ayn Rand.

Liberty is light. Collectivism is darkness.


Vi

There you go again! Enough with the Ann Rand thing! Vi says: read the book "Anthem" by Ayn Rand. Your a one trick pony!

Nope,not a one-trick pony. I'm just trying to help you out, Med.

"To give all the rights to the employer and none to the employee is from what I can gather here, the libertarian way."

The employer (owner of the company) has made the investment. The employer sets the rules of engagement. The employee AGREES to the rules of engagement when he/she is hired. It is up to the employee to produce at least what he/she is being paid for. The "right" the employee has, is to leave the employment of the owner if the employee grows dissatisfied with his/her employment situation. The employee has NO right to take more than he/she is being paid for, or what he/she agreed to when he/she was hired. To do so is theft. The employer is NOT the employee's enemy. In fact, it is the employer who is putting food on the employee's table, feeding the mouths of the employee's children and putting clothes on the entire family.

Vi

Dankdude said:

"Just remember Ayn Rand was a philosopher..."

Click to expand...

And a damned good one too. Not to mention the five books, one play and thousands of essays written by her. Also, she testified before congress during the "communists in Hollywood" investigations.

Vi

Dooood! McCarthy was right. Remember, it was the Left who tried to deny Hess and the Rosenbergs. Also, its well known that FDR's administration was rife with communists.

Over the years, the Left has done an admirable job demonizing McCarthy with their propaganda.


Vi