What would you pick led or hps?

Hollatchaboy said:

In the migro video I posted.

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Got it.

I think Shane read the Lyden paper and, rather than go with Lyden's conclusion, he ran with Lyden's finding that one of the two grows/tests came out showing a benefit. Bugbee is trained in the scientific method (meaning that he's circumspect with his pronouncements) and who doesn't sell grow lights, read the results and that "equivocal" means…equivocal.

In regards to blue/violet/uv, I’ve had a suspicion that the reason people see somewhat negative reactions with “high”amounts of these photons in artificial light sources, is because of the sharp light points of the beam angles. In nature, a decent amount of the received blue and UV rays are received via scattered/diffuse photons (Rayleigh Scattering). In a led fixture, those photons when are coming much more directly from their beam angle. Has anyone experimented with adding a light diffuser over blue/violet/UV wavelengths? I’ve always wanted to use diffuser tape or lenses if I ever experimented with uv or supplemental blue LEDs. I’ve read articles that plants respond to diffuse light more favorably than direct rays.

Rocket Soul said:

Its not stated in the paper as "prove no effect" it sure is how its touted around forums by most. Most people dont really understand the finer points of research (as you do) and see "no statistic significance" as the same as proven not to work.

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Understood.

The results of a test are the results of that test. Nothing more, nothing less. It's crucial to understand that. And I agree that is hard for a lot of people to understand/accept. It's just "here's what we did, here's what happened". We want to see answer from the pointy headed guy but it doesn't always work out that way.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Mr. Freud."

Rocket Soul said:

I dont have any comments on that video, ive only read the paper but ill have a look at it when i get some time. Just to understand:
"I do recall that Bugbee uses the word "equivocal" which is how Lyden spoke of his research and have seen him say many times that "the research does not support that" or "there is no evidence to support that"

what are bugbee and lydon (?) talking about? The bugbee paper or something else? Or is this directed to someone else?

Happy growing

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Sorry for the confusion.

IIRC, Lyden did a study on UV in the late 70's. One strain/grow showed some benefit (I don't recall what it was) another showed nothing. Lydon's conclusion was that the results were "equivocal". To a marketing person, UV is of benefit because one strain showed a benefit; to a research scientist whose entire livelyhood is based on what he says, "equivocal" means "ambiguous".

"Where you sit determines what you see."

See attached.

cdgmoney250 said:

In regards to blue/violet/uv, I’ve had a suspicion that the reason people see somewhat negative reactions with “high”amounts of these photons in artificial light sources, is because of the sharp light points of the beam angles. In nature, a decent amount of the received blue and UV rays are received via scattered/diffuse photons (Rayleigh Scattering). In a led fixture, those photons when are coming much more directly from their beam angle. Has anyone experimented with adding a light diffuser over blue/violet/UV wavelengths? I’ve always wanted to use diffuser tape or lenses if I ever experimented with uv or supplemental blue LEDs. I’ve read articles that plants respond to diffuse light more favorably than direct rays.

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The uvb fixture I use, is florescent. I believe the glass tube would scatter the photons, no?

Hollatchaboy said:

The uvb fixture I use, is florescent. I believe the glass tube would scatter the photons, no?

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I believe that it’s the phosphorus coating on the inside of the glass that actually scatters the photons after it absorbs and re-emits them. Glass typically will reflect/refract light, but the photons don’t lose energy like they do after transmitting through a particle like phosphorus. That and the fluorescent tubes emit light in all directions which spreads the photons in a less concentrated pattern.

The phosphorus coating on the inside of the glass jacket acts in a similar way to the phosphorus coating on led diodes. The phosphor emits a certain spectrum when excited by photons. But UV led diodes don’t have much phosphor coating (I think?) and emit light directionally, more similar to the visible rays of the sun. Likewise with the big ol 450nm spike that is common in most standard white phosphor LED’s.

This thread got really good...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41438-021-00629-5
UV-B light and its application potential to reduce …
WEBUltraviolet-B radiation (280–315 nm), perceived by the plant photoreceptor UVR8, is a key environmental signal that influences plant growth and development and can reduce disease and pest...


Just imagine how strong the UVA/B is, at high altitude, in the Andes, along the Equator!!!!! Not only is the UVA/B powerful at sea level, at the Equator. Think how strong it is, at 7000-9000 feet!!! Where weed grows!!!!

Shorter wavelength UV-B (300 nm) may increase by as much as 24% per 1000 m in elevation due to the shorter pathlength through the atmosphere.

While weed of course wont grow at 20,000 feet. I saw where UVA/B was measured at 20,000 feet in the Andes/Ecuador, and the UV rating was as high as on MARS!!!!
Ya know how we get UV ratings from 1-10?? This was measured at 42!!!!!
While not at the Equator. Similar thing for the Himalayas. 7000-9000ft altitude= huge amounts of UVA/B vs sea level.
At 9000ft, its 75% more powerful, than at lower altitudes. 6000ft, is 50% more powerful.

Multiple roles for Vitamin B 6 in plant acclimation to UV-B - Nature

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-38053-w


Effect of Supplemental UV-A Intensity on Growth and Quality …
Different intensities of UV-A (6, 12, 18 μmol·m-2 s-1) were applied in a plant factory to evaluate the combined influences of supplemental UV-A and …
3

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.…

UV-B strengthens antioxidant responses to drought in …
Potentials of UV-B (280–315 nm) radiation to alleviate effects of water deficit were studied using Nicotiana benthamiana plants in growth …
1

www.sciencedirect.c…
ScienceDirect
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814620325899
UV-A and FR irradiation improves growth and nutritional properties …
WEBUV-A supplementation improved the chlorophyll, soluble protein, soluble sugar, vitamin C contents. •. UV-A supplementation improved the flavonoid, polyphenol, and anthocyanin …


Gonna have a hard time convincing me, UVA/B, doesnt affect weed. In food crops, it increases flavonoids, vitamins, immune response, drought, mold, and pest resistance.

Other than extra heat, I think its hard to beat the combination of a Hortilux Blue, and Solacure UVA/B bulbs.
Solacure also is T12, and has a HUGE Surface Area. It also has a built-In Reflector, as you dont want to use the Fluroescent Housing, to reflect because, YOU CANT REFLECT UVA/B. Its a lost cause, as it is absorbed.
The Solacure, Flower Power bulb, has the only glass in the business, that will go down to 280nm.

The Agromax Pure, is T5, has a small surface area vs T12, and doesnt have a built in reflector, so, it is extremely inefficient. It goes down to 290nm.
The Solacure, has most pf its power, from 280nm-305nm. Its 4 times more powerful than the sun, at this range, and the UVA spectrum, is the same, as the sun. The more powerful UVB, allows you to use less lights, run them for less time, and keep the lights further away, from the plants.
This bulb, is also way overbuilt, and while made to run in a range of 25w-40w, it can be run as high as 80w, but will decrease bulb life, of course. Normal Operation, is 32w.
It will operate on any standard fixture you can buy at Lowes ect. But they/Solacure do make really nice fixtures. But as I said, you cannot reflect UVA/B, and the Flower Power Bulb, has a special built in, reflector, that is the most efficient way of using all the UVA/B possible.

All, of the Flower Power Build UVA/B, is growing towards the plants. Down, not from every direction. Its the ONLY UVA/B Bulb, with a special built in reflector that wont absorb the UVB.

1000% of UVB coming in through a window. UVA, can still pass through glass, but UVB, requires specialized, expensive glass. Neither likes to be reflected, though UVA, isnt as picky.

And MassMedicalStrains, is coming out with a 1000w, and a 600w Halide, around 4/20/24-that has a 6000k color temp vs 5500k for the Hortilux Blue, and is almost 1/3 more powerful, than the Hortilux. 10,000 hour rating. $70 for the $1000 vs $200, for the Hortilux Blue, which has been discontinued.

You can also use the Solacure with LED. It takes 2 for every 4 x 4 area, and an LED Equal to a 1000w HID, which would be about 650w-680w.

MickyMouseSmokeHouse said:

I'm currently running one 600 watt hps setup in my 7ft x 2ft grow tent, I mean my closet. One light is not cutting it for me. I was thinking buying another 600watt hps setup and just run them both at 300watts go up on watt from there till circuit pops. I'm limited to power wattage. My vary first grow light I ever bought was one of those led blue an purple light that was trash. I was thinking trying leds again. I was thinking buying Mars hydro ts1000 or Ac infinity Ionboard like 2x2 or 2x4. If you use an led light what brand and how do you like it?

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In my opinion LED provides more spectrum than HPS/MH.

600w hps/mh vs 600w LED
I see more light penetrating the canopy, the plants love it!!!

norstrain said:

In my opinion LED provides more spectrum than HPS/MH.

600w hps/mh vs 600w LED
I see more light penetrating the canopy, the plants love it!!!

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The BEST LED, have a spectrum of 437nm-730nm.

A Hortilux Blue, has a spectrum of 280nm-2000+. As does the new MMS bulb.


Like the sun, MH technology produces light wavelengths from ~280nm to over 2000nm
(1000w = 100,000 lumens, 1650 PPFD @ 24", and 600w = 60,000 lumens, 1250 PPFD @ 12") with a superior full and balanced 6000K mid-day sunlight spectrum. Abundant in all colors of natural sunlight, including full ranges of Ultraviolet (UV) and infrared (IR) as well.

This is a Partial Spectrum shot, of a 5500k Hortilux Blue.
Notice its going STRONG under 400nm, and more than 750nm.

For an LED, to have such a broad spectrum, you would have to have MANY LED Diodes, for each specific nm, and they would have to be powerful enough, to make a difference, and not just going along, for the ride, to say they have a certain nm range. The Hortilux, is powerful, in every spectral range.

Phosphors do just that, converting high energy blue diode light to broad spread to give whites.

jimihendrix1 said:

The BEST LED, have a spectrum of 437nm-730nm.

A Hortilux Blue, has a spectrum of 365nm-2000+.

This is a Partial Spectrum shot, of a 5500k Hortilux Blue.
Notice its going STRONG under 400nm, and more than 750nm.

For an LED, to have such a broad spectrum, you would have to have MANY LED Diodes, for each specific nm, and they would have to be powerful enough, to make a difference, and not just going along, for the ride, to say they have a certain nm range. The Hortilux, is powerful, in every spectral range.
View attachment 5383787

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Honestly, the healthiest growth and happiest looking plants I’ve ever had indoors were under Hortilux Blue 1000W. They didn’t have as much output as HPS, but the plants always responded better to the Blue spectrum. It just would have needed to have like 25-30% more output and would have been the go-to light source at the time.
The power consumption though…

cdgmoney250 said:

Honestly, the healthiest growth and happiest looking plants I’ve ever had indoors were under Hortilux Blue 1000W. They didn’t have as much output as HPS, but the plants always responded better to the Blue spectrum. It just would have needed to have like 25-30% more output and would have been the go-to light source at the time.
The power consumption though…

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MassMedicalStrains, is coming out with a 600w-1000w bulb, to replace the Hortilux Blue, which has been discontinued. Halide, is what he uses, after using, and buying 10s of 1000s of $$$ worth of LED, he went back to Hortilux, and says the Haide, will produce More/Different Expressions vs LED.

The new bulb, is almost 30% more powerful than the 1000w Hortilux Blue, and has a 10,000 hour lifespan vs 5000-6000 for the Hortilux Blue.
80,000 lumens for the Hortilux-100,000 for the MassMedicalStrain bulb.
It will be available 4/20/24. If all goes well.
And, the new bulb, is only going to cost $70, for the 1000w vs $150-$200, for the Hortilux
1000w = 100,000 lumens, 1650 PPFD @ 24", and 600w = 60,000 lumens, 1250 PPFD @ 12") with a superior full and balanced 6000K mid-day sunlight spectrum.

IM ALSO NOT SAYING LED, CANT GROW REALLY GOOD WEED. IT CAN.

jimihendrix1 said:

MassMedicalStrains, is coming out with a 600w-1000w bulb, to replace the Hortilux Blue, which has been discontinued. Halide, is what he uses, after using, and buying 10s of 1000s of $$$ worth of LED, he went back to Hortilux, and says the Haide, will produce More/Different Expressions vs LED.

The new bulb, is almost 30% more powerful than the 1000w Hortilux Blue, and has a 10,000 hour lifespan vs 5000-6000 for the Hortilux Blue.
80,000 lumens for the Hortilux-100,000 for the MassMedicalStrain bulb.
It will be available 4/20/24. If all goes well.
And, the new bulb, is only going to cost $70, for the 1000w vs $150-$200, for the Hortilux
1000w = 100,000 lumens, 1650 PPFD @ 24", and 600w = 60,000 lumens, 1250 PPFD @ 12") with a superior full and balanced 6000K mid-day sunlight spectrum.

IM ALSO NOT SAYING LED, CANT GROW REALLY GOOD WEED. IT CAN.
View attachment 5383846

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I wouldn't argue on the expression side of things but if you want rock hard, dank ass nugs the Hortulix Blue was inferior to HPS. Best use was for veg and mixed with HPS for Flower

I’ve actually never been that impressed with HPS grown flower. It can yield really well and grow larger nugs, but I was growing the same strains for a few years before I made the switch to 3000k CREE CXA COBs, and my buds were more dense, trichome laden, and had much better aroma under the LEDs.
I grew under both separate light sources for 3 rounds because we wanted to try led on part of the grow before converting the whole thing to LED. 3 rounds of comparing HPS to LEDs was enough for us to fully make the switch.

1000w Horti Blue bulb is just like a large CMH bulb in terms of spectrum. I think where most folks missed the train on the Blue bulbs was not matching intensity (ppfd) of HPS output. For the same wattage bulb, Blue bulbs only put out about 60% of the output of HPS bulbs. When growing for yield, this is a pretty drastic reduction of light intensity. That is a huge energy penalty for broadening the spectrum, that will inherently lead to a large reduction in yield.

OneHitDone said:

I wouldn't argue on the expression side of things but if you want rock hard, dank ass nugs the Hortulix Blue was inferior to HPS. Best use was for veg and mixed with HPS for Flower

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Ive also used 1000w Hortilux HPS-1150w Gavita Dual End, 1000w DE CMH ect. Ive used all of them, and have been using 1000w HID, since they came out, in 1977-78. The very first 1000w HID they came out with, was a 1000w Halide, from the Navy Sub program, where they would be underwater, and have no contact for months, and would grow fresh veggies, on the sub. But, it was a very fragile bulb. When you ordered it, they would offer no warranty, that it would make it there, in working order. About 6 months later, they came out with the Supernova, and was robust, and could survive shipping.

I agree the HPS produces better, but, to me, the terpenes ect, are better under 1000w Halide.
If Im 100% going for more Yield? Id go with the 1150w Gavita, or the 1000w Hortilux HPS.

Also, if this new 1000w HID bulb MassMedicalStrains is going to release, it is 20% more powerful than the Hortilux Blue, and has a 2000k Higher kelvin rating. I think the MMS bulb, is 6000k. Hortilux Blue is 5500k, and the Sun, is 5800k. though, this is at High Noon. And its also a fact, there is way more Blue, at the Equator vs higher latitudes.
If ratings are correct, the new MMS bulb, is rated at 1650umol, which is HUGE, for a 1000w Halide, as the 1000w Hortilux HPS, is only 50umol, more powerful, than the new MMS bulb. 1700umol.

Also from what Ive seen. Outside, Light deprived weed, harvested in the late spring, ( Before July ) is better weed than that is harvested, in the fall. Seems to me, the Late Spring in Northern Hemisphere ( JUNE ) sun, makes for better weed, when it is at its most powerful, and has the most Blue.

cdgmoney250 said:

I’ve actually never been that impressed with HPS grown flower. It can yield really well and grow larger nugs, but I was growing the same strains for a few years before I made the switch to 3000k CREE CXA COBs, and my buds were more dense, trichome laden, and had much better aroma under the LEDs.
I grew under both separate light sources for 3 rounds because we wanted to try led on part of the grow before converting the whole thing to LED. 3 rounds of comparing HPS to LEDs was enough for us to fully make the switch.

1000w Horti Blue bulb is just like a large CMH bulb in terms of spectrum. I think where most folks missed the train on the Blue bulbs was not matching intensity (ppfd) of HPS output. For the same wattage bulb, Blue bulbs only put out about 60% of the output of HPS bulbs. When growing for yield, this is a pretty drastic reduction of light intensity. That is a huge energy penalty for broadening the spectrum, that will inherently lead to a large reduction in yield.

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CMH has a color temp of 3100k- 4200k. The Hortilux Blue, is 5500k. The new MMS Bulb, is 6000k.

I also only use the Blue, in a 3.5 x 3.5 area. Its about as powerful, as a 600w Hortilux HPS vs Photons.
I use a 1000w Hortilux HPS, in a 4 x 4 area.

If ratings are correct, the new MMS bulb, is only 50umol less, than a 1000w Hortilux HPS. 1650umol vs 1700umol for the Hortilux.
New bulb, is also only $70 vs $150-$200 for the Blue, and the Blue, has been discontinued. 1000w Hortilux HPS, was about $70.

norstrain said:

In my opinion LED provides more spectrum than HPS/MH.

600w hps/mh vs 600w LED
I see more light penetrating the canopy, the plants love it!!!

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Strange everyone i know has said the opposite alot like em but hps has a slightly bit better canopy penetration vs led they said

Fact is. The very best LED have a spectrum of 437nm-730nm. Maybe 750nm???
The best LED-BLUE DIODE as far as having the most powerful Blue rating is the new EVO-Mint White, and its 437nm. The Blue-Hortilux, goes all the way down to 280nm, and goes past 2000nm.

Hortilux Blue, has a spectrum of. 280nm-2000+nm.
This is simply a fact. There is no LED spectrum wise, that has such a wide spectrum.

Ive found very few lights, if any, that penetrate as deep as an 1150w Gavita DE HPS. Or a 1000w Hortilux HPS.

jimihendrix1 said:

CMH has a color temp of 3100k- 4200k. The Hortilux Blue, is 5500k.

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Sorry, I was referencing the nanometer coverage more than the color temp. Spectral distribution is obviously somewhat different between the two light sources with CMH having a higher proportion of red in the spectrum.

Hortilux 1000W Blue


Phillips Agro 315W 4200K

jimihendrix1 said:

Fact is. The very best LED have a spectrum of 437nm-730nm. Maybe 750nm???

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I just wanted to respond to this statement. When you say LED, are you talking about the individual chips, or the fixture as a whole? Diodes have limitations just like any other light source, but what “best” LEDs are you referring to? Most grow lights on the market are using similar chips/spectrums and chasing ppf/joule ratings instead of broadening the spectrums using less efficient but wider coverage led chips. Below are a few different spectrums of a single led chip and the spectral coverage that is definitely possible.






These are all from a company called PhosphorTech out of Georgia. Obviously LEDs can have plenty of spectra capability, and individual diodes can be placed in close proximity to blend different spectrums for desired spectral distributions. But most grow light manufacturers are just building off previous designs, and not really bringing anything new to the table other than “Mint” Samsung chips that everybody has a hard on for.