What is the Definition of a Soul?

PadawanBater said:

Personal experience and delusion are two different things.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but how could you guys possibly say something exists without any evidence to support it? Don't you see how absurd that is?

Essentially what you guys are saying is "it exists, you just haven't discovered it yet". If it does exist, and I have not discovered it yet, then it's irrelevant and as far as I can perceive, it does not exist.

If I can't perceive something existing, then it doesn't in the very definition of the word, as our perceptions are what dictates what is real and what isn't. And like I said, it isn't subjective.

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You cannot prove a negative.

PadawanBater said:

This has been a repeated claim here lately. To this I say; OK, but what about the ones that didn't...? Do we disregard the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of individually collected pieces of data by legitimate scientists?

If you have 10 scientists, and one of them lies, do you then disregard the other 9 scientists work? Is all of science?

This is what you guys are doing with your denial of climate change. Same thing the creationists do with evolution... Mentioned that to Cracker but I guess he didn't get the analogy...



Make sure you realize the distinction... I never disrespect people because of their beliefs, I disrespect them for holding such irrational beliefs that shape other aspects of their personality in negative ways. If I held a belief that said it's OK (encouraged in fact) to hate the "lifestyle" of anyone who listens to country music, should that belief be respected?

The same logic applies to religious beliefs. In short, they don't deserve respect.



That's not the reason I do it. I visit forums like this and start these kinds of threads because they need to be started, people need to hear it. Our civilization has gone on too long with these insane beliefs getting passively passed off as moral and good and not to be touched, shaping the hearts and minds (for the much worse) of everyone it poisoned along the way...

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Dude you're missing the point. Science has not and cannot answer all of life's mysteries. Yes, we know that some scientists mislead, lied to, stretched the truth, whatever you want to call it. We have no idea how many other scientists have fudged their data. We can't be certain. You're probably correct that most of it is reliable but you still miss the point that science hasn't tackled every mystery. Even the ones that they have tackled, have they been extremely thorough and did they get it right. Peer review isn't perfect either bro. You keep acting like science is the end all be all. Modern science has been around for about a thousand years as morgentaler enlightened us in an earlier post. That isn't a very long time. There is still so much that science hasn't even touched. Things they haven't even begun to researched yet. You can go around disrespecting other people's beliefs and I can tell you what is going to happen. You are going to immediately turn people off and they won't even listen to what you have to say. You say you come to these forums and start threads like these because "they need to be started". If you are just assaulting peoples most intimate beliefs then you will accomplish nothing except belittling and pissing off the people whose minds you wish to change. Human nature bro, human nature. Keep in mind how you would feel when someone tells you your belief system is what's wrong with the world and is poisoning today's society. You would immediately shut down and wouldn't hear a word being said.

Let's be clear about this.

Science CANNOT prove or disprove religion. The two systems do not connect in any way.

Science deals with the observable and testable.

Religion is simply a made up fantasy created by man, who is still quite primitive. You either believe the fantasy or you don't.

No one will berate you or think less of you (well not too much anyway) if you believe the fantasy. I can see where it may be a comfort in dealing with a chaotic and violent planet.

It's when you tell me that it is TRUE. Then I have a problem with you. Keep it to yourself.

It is the INSISTENCE of the majority of the religious that causes the trouble.

Christianity unfortunately is a cult religion. Therein lies the problem.

Perhaps we should start a new thread discussing the Enlightenment and its consequences. If we dwell on the positive results of human endeavour freed from the blinders of theology we can better illustrate the advantages of freedom from religion without dwelling so much on the negative.

I can honestly say that this country utilized G*D in it's forming and it worked.

At some point man is either going to grow up, or become extinct.

If we do make it to the next level, it will be because we have dropped the myth and are able to deal with the reality of our existence here.

It will not be a smooth transition. Enlightenment is not a light switch. More like a dimmer switch. I can see the light becoming stronger, but setbacks will be many.

Blood will be spilled.

Not all will give up the fantasy without a fight.

CrackerJax said:

Let's be clear about this.

Science CANNOT prove or disprove religion. The two systems do not connect in any way.

Science deals with the observable and testable.

Religion is simply a made up fantasy created by man, who is still quite primitive. You either believe the fantasy or you don't.

No one will berate you or think less of you (well not too much anyway) if you believe the fantasy. I can see where it may be a comfort in dealing with a chaotic and violent planet.

It's when you tell me that it is TRUE. Then I have a problem with you. Keep it to yourself.

It is the INSISTENCE of the majority of the religious that causes the trouble.

Christianity unfortunately is a cult religion. Therein lies the problem.

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I think a few individuals here keep misunderstanding my intent here. I am not religious. I don't go to church. I don't know if there is a soul, a god or an afterlife. What I do know is that science is not perfect. It's far from it yet some people want to act like "If science says it's true then it must be". That seems extremely closedminded to me. It also seems like people are saying that if something can't be quantified it doesn't exist. I agree that organized religion has its problems and I see the hypocrisy. I used this analogy in an earlier post and I think it's a good one: We hand't discovered viruses until the late 1880's yet they were making us sick since the first humans stood erect. For millenia humans speculated on the causes of illness but tiny little microorganisms probably weren't suspected until close to the time of their discovery. There is this overwhelming arrogance which seems to suggest we have acheived ultimate knowledge and wisdom as a species. How can we be so blind to see that we have only scratched the surface. The most exciting time for scientific discovery has yet to come. Who knows what discoveries are yet to be made that could change our entire view on life and our place in the cosmos? That's all I'm saying.

What is true? Is there any way to actually know?

It is science however that is getting answers, not religion. Religion equals stagnation. It says it already HAS the answers, so I think you can have empathy with my position & response to that Doc. You know me well enough.

I don't care what the issue is....politics, economics, social,religion .... if you don't know the ABC'S of something, it's not kosher to fill in X,Y,Z. At least not if you want to be a serious person. Some ppl don't want to be serious, I recognize that. I'm not talking about you Doc. I find you to be a thoughtful person. The church is geared to sweep up those ppl however and galvanize them into a tool for their own purposes. That I do have a problem with...very much so.

I'll say this. I'm not against religion. I am against ORGANIZED religion. I am against cults. Religions that stay within themselves and who don't have a recruitment desire of the world's population are FINE by me (think Buddhism or Judaism).

That's all I'm saying.

Religion is going to suffer huge losses much sooner than you think.

Europe has already seen a substantial decrease in those who identify as religious. Why? Because the fastest cure for religion is exposure to other religions.

In a monolithic religious culture, it sustains itself by everyone patting each other on the back and saying "Aren't you awesome for believing the same unsubstantiated bullshit I believe?"

But when you have a dozen of those factions all trying to win people over, those who have analytical skills see the con for what it is.

And now we have the internet, which is increasing information density at a radical speed and making alternative viewpoints available to everyone - even those entrenched in Christian and Muslim strongholds.

Even though there has only been a small shift in percentage point growth toward atheism in both religions in the past decade, it's not statistically insignificant when you see that the shift has followed the propagation of internet culture starting in the mid-nineties.

The kids born after 1995 are going to be much, much harder for religion to keep a leash on.

As a side note, I heard an excellent argument yesterday, on the benefits of repealing the separation of church and state. As soon as church and state become a monolithic entity, the churches will set upon each other like rabid dogs and do the job of destroying themselves rather quickly.

Makes one almost consider supporting it.

CrackerJax said:

What is true? Is there any way to actually know?

It is science however that is getting answers, not religion. Religion equals stagnation. It says it already HAS the answers, so I think you can have empathy with my position & response to that Doc. You know me well enough.

I don't care what the issue is....politics, economics, social,religion .... if you don't know the ABC'S of something, it's not kosher to fill in X,Y,Z. At least not if you want to be a serious person. Some ppl don't want to be serious, I recognize that. I'm not talking about you Doc. I find you to be a thoughtful person. The church is geared to sweep up those ppl however and galvanize them into a tool for their own purposes. That I do have a problem with...very much so.

I'll say this. I'm not against religion. I am against ORGANIZED religion. I am against cults. Religions that stay within themselves and who don't have a recruitment desire of the world's population are FINE by me (think Buddhism or Judaism).

That's all I'm saying.

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I agree with you that organized religion can be problematic (that's an understatement as well) and I never said religion provides answers in the same manner as science. We know that to be utterly false. Some have very logical and pragmatic minds while some are very superstitious. I think that trying to reason with religious zealots is a lot like reasoning with an anvil. I have met enough of these folks in my life to understand this simple truth: they have their faith and that is all they need. No amount of logic and reason is going to change these folks. I guess if eliminating religion from the world is the aim of some folks.................I say good luck; you're gonna need it.

morgentaler said:

Religion is going to suffer huge losses much sooner than you think.

Europe has already seen a substantial decrease in those who identify as religious. Why? Because the fastest cure for religion is exposure to other religions.

In a monolithic religious culture, it sustains itself by everyone patting each other on the back and saying "Aren't you awesome for believing the same unsubstantiated bullshit I believe?"

But when you have a dozen of those factions all trying to win people over, those who have analytical skills see the con for what it is.

And now we have the internet, which is increasing information density at a radical speed and making alternative viewpoints available to everyone - even those entrenched in Christian and Muslim strongholds.

Even though there has only been a small shift in percentage point growth toward atheism in both religions in the past decade, it's not statistically insignificant when you see that the shift has followed the propagation of internet culture starting in the mid-nineties.

The kids born after 1995 are going to be much, much harder for religion to keep a leash on.

As a side note, I heard an excellent argument yesterday, on the benefits of repealing the separation of church and state. As soon as church and state become a monolithic entity, the churches will set upon each other like rabid dogs and do the job of destroying themselves rather quickly.

Makes one almost consider supporting it.

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Ya know what, maybe you are right. I disagree with most of your assertions but that's cool. It's part of what makes the world the amazing place that it is. The world is much larger than most of us can imagine (especially those who have never left their little habitat). The task ahead of you is a daunting one and I wouldn't try to tackle it but if eliminating religion is your aim, I wish the best of luck to you as well. You're gonna need it.

Peace!

doc111 said:

I agree with you that organized religion can be problematic (that's an understatement as well) and I never said religion provides answers in the same manner as science. We know that to be utterly false. Some have very logical and pragmatic minds while some are very superstitious. I think that trying to reason with religious zealots is a lot like reasoning with an anvil. I have met enough of these folks in my life to understand this simple truth: they have their faith and that is all they need. No amount of logic and reason is going to change these folks. I guess if eliminating religion from the world is the aim of some folks.................I say good luck; you're gonna need it.

Peace!

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I agree. That's why i have often said that IF man makes to the next level, it will be without religion/myth.

We may not make it, that is true enough.

doc111 said:

I've read all of Sagan's work. Occam's razor is sometimes wrong, as demonstrated in the fictitious but otherwise entertaining movie Contact. I honestly don't care if any of you believe in the occult or the mystical. I don't care if you buy into religion or spirituality. The points I've made in this thread stand. We could spend the rest of eternity debating what a soul is or do they exist but I have much work to do in the garden, so enjoy this discussion and stick to your hardcore logic and reason.

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mindphuk said:

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I would say that's a pretty good description of me.

doc111 said:

I would say that's a pretty good description of me.

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I would say your the one being called on bullshit.

fulbright said:

I would say your the one being called on bullshit.

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Could you please elaborate? I am not making any outrageous claims that I am aware of. Most of the people who have posted in this thread know me to be a skeptic so I'm taking it that way, but if you see something I don't I'd love to hear your take.