West virginia mine explosion

abe23

abe23

Active Member
I want to hear from the pro-freedom crowd here. Is government regulation stifling the mining business with unnecessary safety rules? Will the market take care of all issues related to safety for coal miners? Should we just do like china and not give a fuck? Or is this one exceptional circumstance where we DO need the government to step in and enforce basic safety standards. What do you think?

Apparently the owner of the mine get something like 515 citations for safety violations in the months preceding the accident but preferred to pay for the fines rather than fix the problem...
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
This is what unencumbered Capitalism looks like. Speak up against the company and lose your job. Keep quiet and lose your life. This circumstance is exactly why Unions were born. We need the freedom to have unions in these industries. Unions can negotiate with the owners for safety and not be fired. The workers that risk their lives daily need some safety enforcement. It's obvious the owners will not put safety first, but like all capitalist organizations, it is all about the almighty bottom line.
 
Handson

Handson

Active Member
medicineman said:
This is what unencumbered Capitalism looks like. Speak up against the company and lose your job. Keep quiet and lose your life. This circumstance is exactly why Unions were born. We need the freedom to have unions in these industries. Unions can negotiate with the owners for safety and not be fired. The workers that risk their lives daily need some safety enforcement. It's obvious the owners will not put safety first, but like all capitalist organizations, it is all about the almighty bottom line.
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I lost my job for speaking out about re-structures.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
Handson said:
I lost my job for speaking out about re-structures.
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Exactly. I'd like to hear someone on the right defend this mine owner. He is a pure asshole. I've seen other aspects of this dicks life, he is the penultimate Capitalist prick. Come on CJ, defend this dick. Show your ignorance, then negative rep me, you paid for the priveledge. Buy power at RIU, ask any MOD how.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
Notice how even these right wing idiots can't defend this animal. I thought that idiot CJ would have made an attempt, but alas, his two functioning brain cells prevented him from that debacle.
 
Near

Near

Active Member
It's disgusting how greedy people like Don Blankenship put profit ahead of human life. This is what he said in a memo to his managers regarding spending money on safety precautions:

“If any of you have been asked by your group presidents, your supervisors, engineers or anyone else to do anything other than run coal . . . you need to ignore them and run coal. This memo is necessary only because we seem not to understand that the coal pays the bills.”


 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
abe23 said:
I want to hear from the pro-freedom crowd here. Is government regulation stifling the mining business with unnecessary safety rules? Will the market take care of all issues related to safety for coal miners? Should we just do like china and not give a fuck? Or is this one exceptional circumstance where we DO need the government to step in and enforce basic safety standards. What do you think?

Apparently the owner of the mine get something like 515 citations for safety violations in the months preceding the accident but preferred to pay for the fines rather than fix the problem...
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The state has the authority to regulate mines.

You say the mine received 515 citations for safety violations. Meaning the regulators knew there was a problem there before the explosion.

Mining is a dangerous industry. Always has been and that will not change. The company will definitely pay for this horrible tragedy.

But what will happen to the state regulators who knowingly allowed an unsafe mine to continue to operate?

I'll give you three guesses.
 
undertheice

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Johnnyorganic said:
But what will happen to the state regulators who knowingly allowed an unsafe mine to continue to operate?
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it takes the failure of the mine operator, state regulators and the representatives of the union mine workers for such a tragedy to happen. the union will merely point a finger at the owners, denying their duty to see to the safety of their dues paying members. the regulators will point to the violations and claim that their half-hearted attempts were all that was required of them. the mine's owners and operators will be vilified by a public that needs only one scapegoat to slake their thirst for vengeance. all three should be pilloried, but it is only the evil bosses that will always bear the blame. i have little sympathy for them in this, i only think that there are more villains here than will eventually be called to account.
 
Dragline

Dragline

Well-Known Member
undertheice said:
it takes the failure of the mine operator, state regulators and the representatives of the union mine workers for such a tragedy to happen. the union will merely point a finger at the owners, denying their duty to see to the safety of their dues paying members.
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This mine had no union. Every time the workers tried to unionize the owner successfully fought it off. Perhaps if they had been unionized they would have had more power to fight for better safety standards. Perhaps 29 men would still be alive today. We will never know..
 
abe23

abe23

Active Member
Johnnyorganic said:
The state has the authority to regulate mines.

You say the mine received 515 citations for safety violations. Meaning the regulators knew there was a problem there before the explosion.

Mining is a dangerous industry. Always has been and that will not change. The company will definitely pay for this horrible tragedy.

But what will happen to the state regulators who knowingly allowed an unsafe mine to continue to operate?

I'll give you three guesses.
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In this situation the company obviously decided that it was more economical to appeal and challenge the citations and pay them if necessary rather than fix the problem...

I'm not saying that the regulators don't bear any responsibility for not doing their job. But does that mean that we need less regulation in this instance or better regulators? And if the mine industry can't be trusted to operate safely without regulation and oversight, can we really trust wall street?

The SEC was also asleep at the wheel because of the previous administration's laissez-faire attitude. I don't understand how people can see this kind of shit happen and draw the conclusion that we need less regulation and that somehow industries will magically regulate themselves.
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
abe23 said:
In this situation the company obviously decided that it was more economical to appeal and challenge the citations and pay them if necessary rather than fix the problem...

I'm not saying that the regulators don't bear any responsibility for not doing their job. But does that mean that we need less regulation in this instance or better regulators? And if the mine industry can't be trusted to operate safely without regulation and oversight, can we really trust wall street?

The SEC was also asleep at the wheel because of the previous administration's laissez-faire attitude. I don't understand how people can see this kind of shit happen and draw the conclusion that we need less regulation and that somehow industries will magically regulate themselves.
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This has nothing to do with the SEC, a Federal agency completely unrelated to this topic.

I never mentioned de-regulation of the mining industry. This is a regulatory failure, not a de-regulatory failure.

In fact, I answered your question. I pointed out that the state had the authority to regulate and they fell down on the job in spite of overwhelming evidence that there were problems at that particular operation.

But I don't see any policy makers asking why.
 
DubsFan

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
abe23 said:
I want to hear from the pro-freedom crowd here. Is government regulation stifling the mining business with unnecessary safety rules? Will the market take care of all issues related to safety for coal miners? Should we just do like china and not give a fuck? Or is this one exceptional circumstance where we DO need the government to step in and enforce basic safety standards. What do you think?

Apparently the owner of the mine get something like 515 citations for safety violations in the months preceding the accident but preferred to pay for the fines rather than fix the problem...
Click to expand...
In the same manner that a pure Democracy has flaws, pure Capitalism does as well. A pure Democracy can vote to do anything...anything with a simple majority. Pure Capitalism anything goes, buyer beware.

Capitalism has rules. I see people stuff BS into contracts all the time. Just because you sign the dotted line on a bad deal doesn't mean that the contract is "enforcable." These rules in our system are what keep it going.

There are very few that want pure capitalism. Those are usually pretty interesting folks. But I also think it's odd that there are some that think that this is how all Capitalists are.

With all tha being said, the UK has and still has much heavier regulation. Especially with regard to financial markets. Yet they still bought the same bad loan paper that triggered a melt down and their economy has suffered worse and is recovering slower. Yet we are to think that imposing these same regs here in the US will prevent something from happening?

Senseless rambling on my part here...
 
DubsFan

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
I'm wondering what the next shoe to drop is. Consumer confidence is garbage right now. Until those numbers go up it's going to be rough. While many say that a president has no effect on the economy, he does, he can instill confidence in the people. That is far more important then interest rates, the Dow or Oil. Obama needs to realize this is not a classroom, we don't need lectures. We need someone to inspire us and make us feel that the road to recovery is under way.

Too many, even his own voters feel that he is and was far too caught up in Health Care reform when he should have been traveling the country propping up American ideals, job creation and consumer confidence. Nobody cares about what to do with their bad cough if they are losing their home.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
As usual certain people on here are just spoiling for a fight.:fire: I don't think there are too many people who think we shouldn't have regulations. Perhaps actually enforcing the regulations which are in place would help. Instead of handing out paltry fines maybe the regulators should actually make the companies fix problems. Regulations help protect people in a multitude of ways but too much regulation is part of what drives cost up and hamstrings entrepeneurs who want to start up a company in certain industries. We have to walk a fine line and decide which regulations are actually in place to keep us safe and which ones are there simply as obstacles to progress. We all want affordable energy but we want the people who make that a possibility to be safe as well. This disaster will no doubt put the mining industry under scrutiny and hopefully things will change for the better.

My sincerest condolences to the families of those who lost loved ones in this most horrific tragedy.
 
abe23

abe23

Active Member
Johnnyorganic said:
This has nothing to do with the SEC, a Federal agency completely unrelated to this topic.

I never mentioned de-regulation of the mining industry. This is a regulatory failure, not a de-regulatory failure.

In fact, I answered your question. I pointed out that the state had the authority to regulate and they fell down on the job in spite of overwhelming evidence that there were problems at that particular operation.

But I don't see any policy makers asking why.
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You really don't see how they're analogous, johnny? The SEC didn't do it's job because the politicians let this 'let the markets regulate themselves' mentality and the fact that bush stuffed the SEC with people who weren't all that interested in regulating.

And if all that regulators can do is issue citations and fines that are more of a fee than an actual deterrent, there's really not much use...

What I'm trying to say is that the lesson here (which is the same one to be drawn from the sub-prime crisis) is that markets and industries don't always regulate themselves and do what's best for the economy or the country as a whole when they have a short-term financial incentive not to. Proper regulation (including proper enforcement of the rules, yes) has it's place...

And dubsfan, if that bad cough turns out to be a chronic respiratory illness and you don't have insurance or your insurance company decides to fuck you over....there actually is a good chance you might lose your house. Why do you think this was such a big deal during the campaign? Besides, I would hope the people running the country are capable of doing more than one thing at a time.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
abe23 said:
You really don't see how they're analogous, johnny? The SEC didn't do it's job because the politicians let this 'let the markets regulate themselves' mentality and the fact that bush stuffed the SEC with people who weren't all that interested in regulating.

And if all that regulators can do is issue citations and fines that are more of a fee than an actual deterrent, there's really not much use...

What I'm trying to say is that the lesson here (which is the same one to be drawn from the sub-prime crisis) is that markets and industries don't always regulate themselves and do what's best for the economy or the country as a whole when they have a short-term financial incentive not to. Proper regulation (including proper enforcement of the rules, yes) has it's place...

And dubsfan, if that bad cough turns out to be a chronic respiratory illness and you don't have insurance or your insurance company decides to fuck you over....there actually is a good chance you might lose your house. Why do you think this was such a big deal during the campaign? Besides, I would hope the people running the country are capable of doing more than one thing at a time.
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It's all Bush's fault, right?:roll:
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
abe23 said:
You really don't see how they're analogous, johnny? The SEC didn't do it's job because the politicians let this 'let the markets regulate themselves' mentality and the fact that bush stuffed the SEC with people who weren't all that interested in regulating.

And if all that regulators can do is issue citations and fines that are more of a fee than an actual deterrent, there's really not much use...

What I'm trying to say is that the lesson here (which is the same one to be drawn from the sub-prime crisis) is that markets and industries don't always regulate themselves and do what's best for the economy or the country as a whole when they have a short-term financial incentive not to. Proper regulation (including proper enforcement of the rules, yes) has it's place...

And dubsfan, if that bad cough turns out to be a chronic respiratory illness and you don't have insurance or your insurance company decides to fuck you over....there actually is a good chance you might lose your house. Why do you think this was such a big deal during the campaign? Besides, I would hope the people running the country are capable of doing more than one thing at a time.
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I do not see any analogy between a Federal agency (related to finance) and a state issue. As I stated previously, this a regulatory problem, not a de-regulatory problem.

So, according to you, the regulations don't work. So the solution is more regulations. :clap:

I say the regulations in place were not properly enforced. Regulators an officials at the state mining board knew it. The Mining company knew it. Everything was peachy....

Until disaster struck.

Follow the money, Abe.

Follow the money.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
undertheice said:
it takes the failure of the mine operator, state regulators and the representatives of the union mine workers for such a tragedy to happen. the union will merely point a finger at the owners, denying their duty to see to the safety of their dues paying members. the regulators will point to the violations and claim that their half-hearted attempts were all that was required of them. the mine's owners and operators will be vilified by a public that needs only one scapegoat to slake their thirst for vengeance. all three should be pilloried, but it is only the evil bosses that will always bear the blame. i have little sympathy for them in this, i only think that there are more villains here than will eventually be called to account.
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Uhhhh, there was no union representation at that mine, or at any Massey mine. This is the tip of the iceberg of dangerous mines owned and operated by Bob Massey. Unions would have shut the mine down untill they made it safe. Bob Massey threatened to shut the mine down if it unionized. He, (Bob Massey) is one evil greedy prick. One thing unions are good for, is working conditions.
 
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