Wait - What did she just say? Carly Fiorina's argument AGAINST Prop 19

Kindwoman

Member
Sorry, don't know how to just have the video show up. This is worth seeing so get ready... If you are like me, your first response will probably be WTF????

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The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
Surprising... I thought she would be all for the money-grubbing all out whore-fest 19 looks to be. Her reasoning doesnt seem very solid in all seriousness though. Her and Whitman just want to open this state for foreign auction if they had their way...instead of just granting China eminent domain over state parks and faclities (which is always a possibility). It's hilarious to hear them talk about needing to create jobs but not to adequately fund the government. As if the state doesnt furnish jobs or serve a necessary function. It's almost self-defeating, and her dumb ass is running for SENATOR she will spend her days in DC not SAC anyway.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Surprising... I thought she would be all for the money-grubbing all out whore-fest 19 looks to be. Her reasoning doesnt seem very solid in all seriousness though. Her and Whitman just want to open this state for foreign auction if they had their way...instead of just granting China eminent domain over state parks and faclities (which is always a possibility). It's hilarious to hear them talk about needing to create jobs but not to adequately fund the government. As if the state doesnt furnish jobs or serve a necessary function. It's almost self-defeating, and her dumb ass is running for SENATOR she will spend her days in DC not SAC anyway.
You probably know this, but EVERY major politician has come out against P19. Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Jerry Brown, the list goes on. Meg Whitman too, because she hates corporations so much. Doesn't it make you wonder if it is a good idea to join their side?
 

Kindwoman

Member
You probably know this, but EVERY major politician has come out against P19. Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Jerry Brown, the list goes on. Meg Whitman too, because she hates corporations so much. Doesn't it make you wonder if it is a good idea to join their side?
Dale Ogden (Libertarian Party) is on the ballot for governor - He has come right out and said he supports Proposition 19 (as does Pamela J. Brown), also from the Libertarian party. No secret who I'll be voting for this election
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Dale Ogden (Libertarian Party) is on the ballot for governor - He has come right out and said he supports Proposition 19 (as does Pamela J. Brown), also from the Libertarian party. No secret who I'll be voting for this election
I am a hard core libertarian. I already cast my ballot and I voted straight libertarian, except that I voted for the Democrat for Attorney General. In reality, no Libertarian has a prayer of winning any of those posts; I wish they had a chance, but they don't.
 

Kindwoman

Member
I am a hard core libertarian. I already cast my ballot and I voted straight libertarian, except that I voted for the Democrat for Attorney General. In reality, no Libertarian has a prayer of winning any of those posts; I wish they had a chance, but they don't.
No matter if the Libertarians chances are slim.... I'll be damned if I'm going to vote for ANY of those other assholes running for govenor.
 

Kindwoman

Member
You probably know this, but EVERY major politician has come out against P19. Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Jerry Brown, the list goes on. Meg Whitman too, because she hates corporations so much. Doesn't it make you wonder if it is a good idea to join their side?
No - I have never (would never) even begin to think about joining the dark side. I protested the Vietnam war at a time when it was not the "popular" thing to do. I don't march to the "if you can't beat them, join them" tune. Hope you won't either.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
It's hilarious to hear them talk about needing to create jobs but not to adequately fund the government. As if the state doesnt furnish jobs or serve a necessary function. It's almost self-defeating, and her dumb ass is running for SENATOR she will spend her days in DC not SAC anyway.
It's hilarious to hear Fiorina talk about about creating jobs at all. The only jobs she has ever created were in India. I don't know where she gets the balls to run for any public office at all. She someone managed to outsource all those jobs while HP lost 60% of its value. That's a pretty spectacular failure.
 

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
If you are voting with them, then you are on their side. There is no vendetta, I am simply on the right side of this issue from a freedom perspective. The idea that anybody, you or me, is getting paid to post here is laughable.
Are you George Bush? Seriously? "with us or against us" and "the right side".... seriously? Do you even read the drivelling sloganeering you type?
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Are you George Bush? Seriously? "with us or against us" and "the right side".... seriously? Do you even read the drivelling sloganeering you type?
Yeah, obviously I am "W", here supporting prop 19 to legalize marijuana. That would make you, who, Michael Dukakis?

Obviously there is a right side on this issue. If you believe drug use is wrong and it should be illegal, then vote against 19. If that is your position I won't even try to dissuade you. What I won't stand idly by for is a bunch of, "the evil corporations will take all our jobs, and Richard Lee wrote P19 in invisible ink and P19's real wording will only be revealed after the election, and P19 will override P215..." crap.

The fact is that P19 is a small step in the right direction. It is not perfect, but it is all we have before us today and it is better than the status quo.
 

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
Yeah, obviously I am "W", here supporting prop 19 to legalize marijuana. That would make you, who, Michael Dukakis?

Obviously there is a right side on this issue. If you believe drug use is wrong and it should be illegal, then vote against 19. If that is your position I won't even try to dissuade you. What I won't stand idly by for is a bunch of, "teh evil corporations will take all our jobs, and Richard Lee wrote P19 in invisible ink and P19's real wording will only be revealed after the election, and P19 will override P215..." crap.

The fact is that P19 is a small in the right direction. It is not perfect, but it is all we have before us today and it is better than the status quo.
Huh? WTF does Dukakis have to do with junior? Time for your meds...

I think that 19 is wrong, not drug use - jesus christ man, anyone who knows me will tell you I have absolutely no problems with using drugs...I love them! Some of them anyway. And the wording of the bill itself is bad enough on its own...no trickery is necessary. 19 is large step in a really bad direction and its the perfect tool to put the kibosh on the MMJ system currently in place which you seem to refer to as the "status quo." Well, I am sorry that the "status quo" was good enough for everyone for 15 years...Sorry that it made CA what it is today...Sorry that's not good enough for you.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Huh? WTF does Dukakis have to do with junior? Time for your meds...

I think that 19 is wrong, not drug use - jesus christ man, anyone who knows me will tell you I have absolutely no problems with using drugs...I love them! Some of them anyway. And the wording of the bill itself is bad enough on its own...no trickery is necessary. 19 is large step in a really bad direction and its the perfect tool to put the kibosh on the MMJ system currently in place which you seem to refer to as the "status quo." Well, I am sorry that the "status quo" was good enough for everyone for 15 years...Sorry that it made CA what it is today...Sorry that's not good enough for you.
How will 19 have a negative effect on MMJ? Have you read P19? Here is a quote from David Nick, a noted MI criminal defense attorney:



"PROP. 19 IS THE BEST THING TO HAPPEN TO MMJ PATIENTS SINCE PROP. 215

Anyone who claims that Proposition 19 will restrict or eliminate rights under the Compassionate Use Act (CUA) or the Medical Marijuana Program (MMP) is simply wrong. If anything, Proposition 19 will permit individuals to grow and possess much more than ever before with patients, coops and collectives still receiving the same protections they are entitled to under the CUA and MMP.

Here is why.

The legal arguments claiming the "sky will fall" if Prop. 19 passes are based on the fallacious conclusion that the Initiative invalidates the CUA and MMP. This baseless fear stems from a flawed legal analysis which focuses on just about every portion of Prop. 19 EXCEPT the relevant portions. This flawed legal analysis is driven by an incorrect understanding of the rules of statutory construction.

Although extrinsic materials (such as legislative committee memos or voter pamphlet arguments) may not be resorted to when the legislative language is clear, courts may never ignore the purpose of the legislation. Every interpretation a court gives a statute must be consistent with the purpose of the legislation. This is why statutes have long "preambles" which explicitly state the purposes of the legislation.

This rule is so controlling that a court is required to ignore the literal language of a legislative statute if it conflicts with the purpose of the legislation. By example I call attention to the appellate court case of Bell v. DMV. In this precedent setting case, the court ruled that a statute must be interpreted to apply to civil proceedings even though the statute they were interpreting stated it applied only to "criminal" proceedings. The court&#8217;s interpretation of the statute was consistent with the purposes of the legislation and the limitation to criminal cases in the statute itself was not.

PROP. 19 PROVIDES ADDITIONAL PROTECTIONS TO PATIENTS FROM THE ACTIONS OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT

Section 2B presents the controlling and relevant purposes for understanding what Prop. 19 can and cannot do. This section EXPRESSLY excludes the reach of Prop. 19 from the CUA and MMP. Sections 2B (7 & 8) specifically state that the purpose of this initiative is to give municipalities total and complete control over the commercial sales of marijuana "EXCEPT as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.&#8221;

Prop. 19 makes it perfectly clear that the Initiative does NOT give municipalities any control over how medical marijuana patients obtain their medicine or how much they can possess and cultivate as the purpose of the legislation was to exempt the CUA and the MMP from local government reach. Whatever control municipalities have over patients and collectives is limited by the CUA and the MMP, not by Prop. 19."


Who am I supposed to believe, some guy on a marijuana site that thinks he debating George W Bush, or an attorney who makes his living defending people against marijuana prosecutions?
 

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
Who am I supposed to believe, some guy on a marijuana site that thinks he debating George W Bush, or an attorney who makes his living defending people against marijuana prosecutions?
And the explicit exemption for medical cultivation is where.....? Are you going to use this letter to make claims that he doesnt? Or more importantly, that 19 doesnt?

Nice stretch on the "some guy who thinks he's debating Bush." That's hilarious... I didnt even know I thought that until you said it! Thanks for revealing myself to myself! Fucking INSPIRATIONAL!
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
And the explicit exemption for medical cultivation is where.....? Are you going to use this letter to make claims that he doesnt? Or more importantly, that 19 doesnt?

Nice stretch on the "some guy who thinks he's debating Bush." That's hilarious... I didnt even know I thought that until you said it! Thanks for revealing myself to myself! Fucking INSPIRATIONAL!

Here you go, again from Dave Nick's legal analysis of P19, you really should read it:

"Since collectives are expressly allowed, local ordinances banning them are not consistent with the MMP. Health and Safety Code Section 11362.83, which limits municipalities ability to ban coops or overly restrict them, is unaffected by Prop. 19 as it expressly states in Sections 2B (7 & 8) that the laws created by Prop. 19 must be followed "EXCEPT as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.&#8221;

No problem, Ruiner, I am happy to reveal you to one and all.
 

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
Here you go, again from Dave Nick's legal analysis of P19, you really should read it:

"Since collectives are expressly allowed, local ordinances banning them are not consistent with the MMP. Health and Safety Code Section 11362.83, which limits municipalities ability to ban coops or overly restrict them, is unaffected by Prop. 19 as it expressly states in Sections 2B (7 & 8) that the laws created by Prop. 19 must be followed "EXCEPT as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.&#8221;

No problem, Ruiner, I am happy to reveal you to one and all.
Glad you posted that part of the letter...what section is the smiley face with sunglasses section of the prop? Is that the secret ink trick you were talking about?

The fact that they didnt put the CUA in section 2B (7) is pointless, since the next section (not the smiley face with sunglasses mystery section), section 2B (8 ) also neglects to list the CUA H&S codes there...(which if it had been included there, without a doubt I would be voting yes) because that section lists what standing state laws are to be left unaffected by prop 19...Since the CUA is not found there, and the wording of the cultivation section is
"notwithstanding any other state law" (with no EXPLICIT EXEMPTION from reach in section 2B (8 ) that means that ALL non-commercial grows are now only allowed to be twenty-five square feet. To say that you don't need to list the CUA in that section is absurd, and insulting to the intellect. Right there in Section 2B (8 ), in black and white, are the laws that are exempted from the implication of prop 19....if they meant to leave 215 intact, why the unmistakable legal and technical omission?

The entire paragraph you posted is about allowing collectives, big deal. I am talking about PATIENTS RIGHT TO CULTIVATE FREELY WITHOUT RESTRICTION OR TAXATION. You cannot and will not be able to prove from the source (prop 19) that these exemption exist. You refer to swill-milk propaganda that was intentionally written to complicate and distort the arguments against 19. Considering JDN doesn't even address another person and literally MADE ALL OF THAT SHIT UP, his victory in his argument with himself does not impress me...and furthermore it does not answer my question directly.

No one from the 19 camp has, to this day, not dodged this question and not been forced into a "trust me it wont happen" position. Why? Because there are no exemptions for patients to cultivate freely without taxation and restriction.
 
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