Variety selection advice??

I am looking to finally start my first grow. I am very much a science guy (in fact I'm a scientist) and have done a lot of research as I want to do this well. I think I have everything down, but I can't make up my mind on what varieties to grow. I find descriptions of certain varieties online, but was hoping I could get some advice from some of you who have been growing for a while and know the good and bad of different types.

I will be growing indoors in a room with a fairly low ceiling to start, so that likely rules out any sativas. I would like to grow a few different types, at least two to start: one for during the day to keep me awake and active, and one for at night to knock me out.

Any information anyone would be willing to share would be appreciated. I'm looking for info on quality of the smoke, quantity per plant, the type of high, any issues with growing it (prone to disease, it's thirsty, needs more/less nutrients than others, etc...), how strong the smell is, etc...

Thanks in advance

CB

"a room with a fairly low ceiling to start, so that likely rules out any sativas."

You can grow a 6 foot sativa with only a foot from the top of the bucket to the top of the buds, just different ways to grow. There are lots of medium height sativa dominant crosses as well.

My first grow I had no idea what I was doing and vegged 12 sativas to between 6 & 8 feet. When I found out that I should be using an HID and not a few 100W incandescent bulbs and light intensity I bent the plants flat, curled the stems around my pots and had only the branches and buds sticking up. Best grow I've ever done, I've just switched back to that method.

"one for during the day to keep me awake and active"

Serious Seeds is one of the best breeders around, they have Bubblegum and Kali Mist that I found easy to grow and give a beautiful clear high. Both can get tall, but just topping a few times can keep the plants under 36".

http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/serious-seeds/cat_6.html

I'll post a list of strains in another post, with effects so you can compare.

"and one for at night to knock me out. "

Something narcotic, like Blue Moonshine by DJ Short or OG Moonshine by Elite. Again, look through the strain list in the following posts and pick one that looks promising.

http://www.hempdepot.ca/seeds/dj_short/index.html

http://elitegenetics.webs.com/list.htm

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DJ Short

Spectrum of Effects

The first spectrum to consider is the "up and down". "Up" refers to the stimulating aspects of cannabis, while "down" refers to sedative qualities. Up pot tends to liven the disposition and stimulate the emotions, inspiring sociability and talkativeness. Down pot tends to produce sedative and depressant effects. Some people refer to stimulating pot as being a "head" high and sedative pot as being a "body" high, yet although partially true this is also misleading.

Body and head highs are the next spectrum of the cannabis experience. Generally speaking, head highs are stimulating and body highs are sedative, but not all are. Some body highs are stimulating and some head highs are depressing. I once sampled a terribly paranoia-inducing head pot that inspired great couch lock qualities. I called it Boo-Goo.

Early to late harvest will affect the head to body spectrum expressed by a certain plant, with the later harvest tending to produce more body and sedative effects. However, I believe that certain aspects of this spectrum to be genetically inherited.

Next to consider are aspects of duration. Some cannabis tends to be short-acting (15-30min) whereas other varieties last much longer (6-7 hours). Once again production, harvesting and curing techniques can influence aspects of this spectrum, but much of this effect is inherited.

For me, the most important aspect of the cannabis experience to consider is tolerance. This refers to the product's ability to provide the same experience via the same amount over time – the burnout factor. By "over time" I mean the long run: months, years, decades...

Most of the cannabis I see on the market today has a terrible tolerance factor – a quick burnout time with the product's novelty lasting less than a week. Luther Burbank's model of breeding needs to be employed here and no expression of tolerance to your product is to be tolerated. An example of where intolerance to tolerance is tolerated – enough already!

Another aspect of tolerance is "ceiling." This refers to how high (or far) one is capable of going with the variety. How many hits can you consume until more hits are unnoticeable? Most indicas have a low ceiling of less than 10 hits. For me that's usually around 5 hits in one smoking session. If I smoke more than 5 hits of a strong indica I will either not notice the post-ceiling hits, or I will fall asleep.

Some sativas have a very high ceiling, or seem to have none at all! This means that the more you consume, the higher and further you go. Oaxaca Highland Gold, Black Magic African, and Highland Thai were some of the herbs I've tried with very high or no ceiling.

The final aspect of mental effects to consider when sampling strains for breeding is the tendency to produce anxiety. Certain strains of cannabis increase anxiety while others decrease it. This is also true for other emotions, which some strains may suppress while others may augment their intensity. Generally stimulating and head varieties are the ones that can produce unwanted anxiety, but this is not always the case. Quickly cured buds or an over-early harvest are contributing factors to anxiety-increasing pot, but this trait is also genetic in nature.

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This is a cool chart, gives you an idea of the characteristics of a lot of classic strains.




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the j.c.2 is actually more like 75- 90+% sativa...mrs. clean is the more indica(75%), but is THE lemoniest thing EVER!!!! my high sativa j.c.2 has a faint vanilla smell and not so much lemon; but an absolutely beatiful plant. j.c.2 is one of the best things I've smoked- it's like they turned the gravity way down! and that lemon gush is unbeatable. it's in my top 5-no doubt!...for indoor though, I'd go with spacebomb(queen), or something more indica like juggernaut...my standard recommendation for any new indoor op though, would be the shark. it does a lot of things well.-fast grower, strong, nice yield, not much less potent than the widow, not bad tasting...another indica I like is sensi star.

Hobbes, I really appreciate your response, that's great. I'm intrigued by the idea of being able to bend the plant over if I don't have enough height in my attic. My plan is to attempt a SoG grow up there. I'm researching now, and hoping to start in the next two to three weeks. So I am now looking very closely at this list of varieties. It's almost overwhelming the number of types I have to choose from. I think I definitely want to grow 2 types, a day smoke and a night time smoke.

Right now I'm leaning toward Bubblegum for my daytime smoke, and Blue Moonshine as my night-time smoke. I'm not very turned on by the "acrid" description for Blue Moonshine though. As for this exact second, these are the two I'm thinking. But there are so many to choose from. If anyone thinks I should lean in a different direction as far as varieties go, please, I welcome all opinions.

I'm sure I'll be back on here a lot once I get this going picking all of your brains for info. Thanks for the help so far.

CB

Also, how important is the specific company you order your seeds from, and how important is the price you pay? I've noticed there are a lot of different companies, and a pretty descent range in price for the same seeds. Are there certain companies that are more reliable, or just better to go with in general? And I was expecting to pay better than $200 for seeds, but am finding what I want for as little as around $50 for ten seeds. Would you think these seeds will be good and all that I need.

Again, thanks guys for your help.

CB here's a thread with pics of 6 plants I'm growing in a screenless scrog. It's working out well again, I'm starting to see branch growth now. Check out the last picture of my veg room - it was my first grow room for veg and flower and I grew those 12 sativas in 5 gallon pots with that little hieght.

As for pirce - you can get 5 Subcool Jack the Ripper seeds for $40 USD and no strain anywhere will give you better genetics. Some expensive strains are worth it too, but with Elite, Peak, Subcool, Serious ... there's no need to shell out huge $$$ until you want a specific strain.

Good luck with the grow, pick the breeders you'd buy from first and the strain second.

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/211186-pics-my-garden-ssd-km.html

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Nice, thanks a lot man.

Next question, or line of questions (I'm not sure I'm starting these threads and whatnot correctly. Tell me if I should be starting these somewhere else).

I'm planning to do an attic grow because it's all the space I have. I am moving into a new place in two weeks, and honestly have not idea what the attic is like. I'm prepared to have to do a lot of work to keep it cool up there. I should have at least a 4 foot ceiling, but am thinking it will actually be more like 5 or 6 feet. Or at least I hope.

I am wanting to do a SoG setup. I would like to do as large a grow as I can fit up there. Does anyone have experience trying to do a SoG grow in an attic? Any words of advice? If this is not realistic to do in an attic, I WILL find somewhere else to do it. This is just my safest option as there is an apartment in the basement of my house.

I am looking for any advice suggestions cautions that you all have.

Right now I have a single 400 W lamp and a smaller 200W lamp that were orininally intended for a flowering lamp and a veg/mother/clones lamp. Now I'm planning to do a larger scale grow. What recommendations would you make in terms of lighting? I want to go as professional as I can with this, so am not too concerned about cost right now, unless it gets out of hand. Or unless my wife tells me "enough already." This is my first grow, and while I've done a lot of research, anything you guys have to say from first hand experience is great. I will take advice on every aspect of the grow from room design to equipment selection right up to drying after harvest.

Thanks for helping out a newbie.

CB

"Are there certain companies that are more reliable, or just better to go with in general?"

These are the one's I've bought from who I'd buy from again - ie good beans, good service. There are lots of other great companies.

Subcool (TGA) - http://www.cannaseur.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=9&Itemid=36&vmcchk=1&Itemid=36

Elite - http://www.cannaseur.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=9&Itemid=36&vmcchk=1&Itemid=36

Serious (and Attitude seed bank) - http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/serious-seeds/cat_6.html

PeakSeedsBC - http://www.peakseedsbc.com/seeds.htm

Dr Greenthumb - http://www.drgreenthumb.com/cannabis_seeds_GreenthumbSeedsEntrance.htm


Breeders I'm going to buy from:

DJ Short - http://www.hempdepot.ca/seeds/dj_short/index.html : http://www.legendsseeds.com/

BOG - http://www.bcbuddepot.com/category.php?category=Plan B

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"I'm not sure I'm starting these threads and whatnot correctly. Tell me if I should be starting these somewhere else)."

Is cool.

"I'm prepared to have to do a lot of work to keep it cool up there."

I'm growing in my attic as well, it use to be sweltering hot. I put some ducting up the ceiling and used a Vortex fan to draw the air from above the light, then ran ducting through the attic floor and out a vent in the bathroom below. The whole house is cool all summer now.

"I am wanting to do a SoG setup. I would like to do as large a grow as I can fit up there."

Unless you've done some growing you may want to start with a smaller garden (< 20 square feet) and add lights and plants as you work the quirks out.

"Does anyone have experience trying to do a SoG grow in an attic? Any words of advice?"

You've got to get your cloning system set up in a seperate veg room and get the stretch figured out for your style of growing.

You figure out your maximum plant height (bucket top to heat safety area below light), and veg to your stretch height - If you're going soiless with Big Laughing from Dr Greenthumb and you have 2' for plant height you can veg to 16" and be confident of getting about 24" finish height every time.

"If this is not realistic to do in an attic"

You'll have to check out the height and the temperature in winter but I find the attic the best place, safe. I've boarded off the top of my attic stairs and am putting in a trap door in my bedroom to add to safety.

"I am looking for any advice suggestions cautions that you all have. "

1. Keep your mouth shut.

2. Don't ever show anyone your grow room, or tell anyone you have one. Be very carefull giving out bud, small amounts.

3. Get the best odor control you can get.

4. Quit smoking marijuana. Get a vaporizer - forget all the other reasons to have one or to smoke a joint: vaporizers have almost no smell.

5. If you're using a lot of electricty do your lights-on at night - keeps meter readers from seeing your dials spin during the day when no one may be home. Also easier to keep cool in summer. In some areas electricity is cheaper at night.

6. Put in as many levels of security as you can - lock the attic door, odor control, vent air on second story.

7. Where is the breaker box? If it's in the attic have it moved before you set up your grow - insurance safety inspectors will demand to see it at some time, then send an electrician when you least expect it. Just happened to me this last week, you will piss yourself if you're not prepared.

8. Learn about home electricity. Run wiring from your breaker box to the attic if necessary, don't use extension cords for HID lights. Put a smoke detector by your electrical wiring/light.

9. If you only need part of the attic, divide the attic with blackout plastic incase someone peaks up the door. Go to a farm supply shop for hay bailing plastic, thicker/tougher than hydro shop stuff and a quarter the price.


"What recommendations would you make in terms of lighting?"

HPS for flower, 50W per square foot. I have a 600W for 24'sq (25W/'sq) but I also use a light mover. Subcool grows with 6 hours light, 18 hours dark and says he gets great bud.

I like a 10,000 K light for veg, keeps the nodes close together.

"I want to go as professional as I can with this, so am not too concerned about cost right now"

Be most concerned about saftey and no one having a clue about your grow. You don't get a second chance at not being found out.

"I will take advice on every aspect of the grow from room design to equipment selection right up to drying after harvest."

Grow 2 or 3 strains, the variety is great.

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Hobbes,

Once again, thanks a ton. I really appreciate it all your help so far. The keeping my mouth shut part is why I'm glad I waited to this point in my life to start. I think a few years ago I would have been so excited it would have been really hard for me to not talk about it. Now no one except my wife will know. And I'm going to start with one variety, because I have access to clones, and will order seeds for the other 2.

I'm under two weeks now until I move into the new place and get to start.

These clones I am getting are AK-47. They are being started for me now, so hopefully as soon as I'm in the new house I can get my room set up and get these ladies going. The AK I've smoked from these plants is pretty good, but I'm hoping to go higher quality still, so I'm not sure if I'll continue on with it after the first run or not. I really just want these so I can be growing something while I'm waiting for the new seeds to sprout and veg. I have a few questions about this though.

Should I plant all the seed I get, or save some? From what I know, I was planning to :

Germinate all the seeds, grow them up, veg them for a while, and then choose the best few plants as mothers (best 1 or 2 from each variety).
- As far as the females that will not be used as mothers: Can I go ahead and flower these to use for my first harvest? Or do I just want to get rid of them? I am antsy and don't want to wait forever for my first harvest.

Meanwhile, I would take clones from the mothers and allow them to grow while the others are in veg phase. When I start to flower the first plants, I would put my clones in the veg room and veg them while waiting for my first harvest. After my first harvest I would transfer the clones from veg room to flower room.
- Does this make sense? I'm trying to start getting harvests as soon as I can. My hope is that I can flower the AK while my new seeds are in the seedling/veg stage. Then to put the non-mother plants into flower after the AK is harvested, while the clones from the mothers are in veg. Then harvest the first non-mothers, and move the clones into the flower room. I know I'm getting repetitive, I just want to make sure I'm being clear.

Do you think this will work?
How much time should I expect between planting my seeds and getting my first harvest?
How long should I leave my plants in the veg phase? I've heard anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks.
How much time should I expect from moving plants to the flower room to harvest?

Sorry for all the questions, being a guy with degrees in plant breeding, you'd think I'd know more about grow smoke. I just want to get it right.

When a seed company says 50 to 55 days for their seeds, is this the time from planting to harvest, or the time from planting to flower? I know I am not going to be able to have a set schedule for this until I start and see how things go, but I am trying to get an estimate of when I'll get my first harvest, and how often after that I can expect a harvest. My wife is bugging me. She's letting me put this money into growing, but wants to know when she'll get that money back. Wives!

I'll probably bombard you with questions as I get closer to starting my grow, and as I get into it and encounter problems. I really really appreciate all the help. This site is great.

CB

CB you've put a lot of thought into this, fantastic.

"Now no one except my wife will know."

Be sure that you're in agreement: once you start growing neither can ever get divorced, only become a widow/widower.

"I'm going to start with one variety, because I have access to clones, and will order seeds for the other 2. "

Fantastic again! Clones are the best way to start - you're not only getting a rooted plant (faster harvest), you're getting a great pheno that someone thought was worth cloning, the best plant of a batch of seeds grown.

"These clones I am getting are AK-47."

Do you know if it's Serious Seeds' AK47? Phenomenal smoke, I grew a knock off F2 when I first started growing and it was still great.

AK47, during flower, smells much like a sick skunk who was pissed on by a deseased ally cat, then the smell of the piss was so bad that the skunk crawled into a thick black plastic bag and sprayed while it died. Then after 12 days in the sun you take the bag to your grow room and open the bag to sniff the skunk.

This is what your grow room will smell like, and therefore your whole house if you have no odor control. Best you can afford. I'm serious man, way fucking serious. NO WAIT! Way way fucking serious. Yeah.

"The AK I've smoked from these plants is pretty good, but I'm hoping to go higher quality still, so I'm not sure if I'll continue on with it after the first run or not. I really just want these so I can be growing something while I'm waiting for the new seeds to sprout and veg."

That's a great idea, you'll have bud from your clones a month before plants from seed that were started the same time. Don't discount the quality of Serious AK47, you might grow it out amazingly.

"Should I plant all the seed I get, or save some? From what I know, I was planning to : Germinate all the seeds, grow them up, veg them for a while, and then choose the best few plants as mothers (best 1 or 2 from each variety). "

I usually save some seeds for later, mistakes happen or just not keeping a mother then wanting to germ the remaining seeds years later. I got 5 seeds each of Super Strawberry Diesel, Jack The Ripper, Pandora's Box, Jillybean and Killer Chemdawg and germed 3 seeds of each (4 of 6 SSD) keeping 2 back for later and safety. Elite sends an extra seed and 2 of Subcools strain's had 2 shoots in one seed each.

"- As far as the females that will not be used as mothers: Can I go ahead and flower these to use for my first harvest? Or do I just want to get rid of them? I am antsy and don't want to wait forever for my first harvest."

Harvest those babies! I put buckets's in my garden until no more will fit, no sense growing less than your grow room and light can do. Sometimes you'll get a gnarly low producing pheno that has the most amazing high, always take a clone from each plant in case you've found the next Chemdog.

"Meanwhile, I would take clones from the mothers and allow them to grow while the others are in veg phase. When I start to flower the first plants, I would put my clones in the veg room and veg them while waiting for my first harvest. After my first harvest I would transfer the clones from veg room to flower room. - Does this make sense?"

Prefect sense. You'll just have to get the technique, timing and stretch down. It's always better to take more cuttings than you need clones, for errors and just to experiment with. Rooting your own clones is being the cheap.


"I'm trying to start getting harvests as soon as I can. My hope is that I can flower the AK while my new seeds are in the seedling/veg stage. Then to put the non-mother plants into flower after the AK is harvested, while the clones from the mothers are in veg. Then harvest the first non-mothers, and move the clones into the flower room. I know I'm getting repetitive, I just want to make sure I'm being clear. "

Sound's good. You're AK47 clones will be ready to go into 12/12 as soon as you get them - they'll be sexually mature because the mother plant is more than 5 weeks old - but you need some height in veg to get a decent yield in harvest.

Figuring out the stretch can be tricky until you get your grow dialed in the same for each strain each grow. I grow Kali Mist double topped in Pro Mix and get 16" veg to 38" flower stretch (2.4 : 1 stretch). If I do the same in single bucktet DWC I could go 6" to 48" (8.0 : 1) or in an 8 plant RDWC 1.5" to 32" (21.3 : 1). It's going to take some time for you (1 or 2 grows might do) but when you have the stretch dialed in you just measure your plants and move to 12/12 when they hit height.

"Do you think this will work? " (Do you think this is a good procedure for growing?)

Yes, the procedure is good. Growing is fairly easy, growing well takes practice, study and commitment. Or just a good procedure off the bat.

“How much time should I expect between planting my seeds and getting my first harvest?“

Germination: 1 week
Veg: 3 to 5 weeks
Flower: AK is 8 to 9 weeks, add a week if your light <1000W, another week or two for growing experience - you'll reduce this as you learn growing and your strain, people call it "dialed in". What other strains?
Dry and Cure: proper - 4 weeks. You can do a quick bake for a light high in an hour.

So, using AK47 from seed as an example you would harvest AK47 18 weeks from harvest and 22 weeks for great smoke. Different growers will take more or less time: I had an AK F2 that took 21 weeks flower and still didn't ripen; there's no doubt people on this forum who could harvest AK from seed in 12 weeks, but I ain't on 'O dem.

"How long should I leave my plants in the veg phase?"

Easy answers:
1. Until they hit the height you need before stretch.
2. Until they're sexually mature - usually 3 to 5 weeks from seed. If you put them into 12/12 before they are sexually mature they will continue to veg using only 12 hours of light for energy to grow.

"How much time should I expect from moving plants to the flower room to harvest? "

Each strain flowers with it's own specific time cycle, which can be influenced in different ways which you don't need to know now but since I'm writting all this I thought I'd fuck with you for awhile.

Serious AK47 lists as 56-63 days. Simon from Serious would hit this every time, as learning growers we'll usually be a couple weeks over the suggested time.

"Sorry for all the questions, being a guy with degrees in plant breeding, you'd think I'd know more about grow smoke. I just want to get it right. "

You will, and with knowledge about breeding you're going to have a lot of fun with your new hobby. You may be the next Subcool!

"When a seed company says 50 to 55 days for their seeds, is this the time from planting to harvest, or the time from planting to flower?"

The time from putting the plant in 12/12 until harvest. It does not include the germination nor veg time. Guides, not hard rules. A lot of variables.

"I know I am not going to be able to have a set schedule for this until I start and see how things go, but I am trying to get an estimate of when I'll get my first harvest, and how often after that I can expect a harvest."

If you can get those clones run them and get that first harvest quick - that's the hardest wait, for that first bud. As soon as your seedlings are ready for the flower room switch them over, eventually your goal will be to time your new plants in flower so you are harvesting a plant every week or two. Much easier than trimming 12 plants at one time, you always have bud. I have room for 14 x 5 gallon buckets in my flower cage, I've got 16 plants of at various stages of flower in there (10 buckets and an 8 site Aquamist at the moment). There's always fun to be had when you stagger your harvests.

Use the guide line from above (copied below) and punch in the numbers for your strain.

Germination: 1 week ?
Veg: 3 to 5 weeks ?
Flower: ?
Dry and Cure: proper - 4 weeks. You can do a quick bake for a light high in an hour, a water cure in 7 days.


"My wife is bugging me."

You ever watch "Married With Children"? I've always thought that Al Bundy made some excellent, well thought out and expressed, points on marital relations.

"She's letting me put this money into growing, but wants to know when she'll get that money back."

1. She will no longer have to drive to Compton to pick up a nickle bag of pot for you for the space channels Star Trek rerun extravaganza.

2. Once you get your skills up, strains picked and dialed in, you will have better pot than you could buy in most areas.

3. Amortization of fixed and variable costs will be emotionally recouped on the first harvest and financially recouped by your first or second good harvest.

As a new grower you can expect 1/4 - 1/2 grams of cured bud per watt of HID. As you learn you can expect 1/2 - 1 gram per watt, some people report more. With your botony experience you should start some ways up the learning curve and advance quickly.

You have a 400W HID for flower, @ 50W per square foot for flower you can have an 8 square foot garden. More if you have a light mover. You could get away with a bit bigger, say 3' x 3' for a stationary light. Using tomato cages to keep the branches from taking up too much space you could fit ... 5? x 5 gallon buckets, 2 - 3 oz per plant. 10 - 15 oz per grow 280g - 420g. You could do this easily 4 to 5 times a year.

At compassion club prices 280g x $6/g = $1,680 savings per grow.

Variable Costs
10 weeks electricity @ 15C per KW = 70 days x 12 H/D x .15/KW x 400W/1000W = $50
Fertilizer = $50
Pro Mix = $25

Fixed Costs
400W HPS HID = $150
5 x 5 gallon buckets = $50.
5 trays for buckets = $15
PH pen = $100
Reflective Material = $50

Fixed Costs usually left until it's too late
Vortex Fan and Can Fan = $200

What else am I missing?

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If I've missed any questions, or created others, please repost and I'll have at 'em.

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Do not order from Elite Genetics, they may have been busted. See "busted" thread

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Hobbes,

You're the man.

Hobbes and Old Frog,

You are my go to guys (ladies?, People?), and here I am with more questions. There has been a change of plans. I have no access to the attic from inside my house, and really don't want to deal with cutting the ceiling open, so I am starting with a closet. I am renting the upstairs of a house, with a tenant in the basement. I need to get through the next 2 months, and then I will get possession of the basement apartment too, and have the whole house.

So, the closet space I have is 34" deep x 23" wide x 58" high. So I'm looking at just over 5 square feet. This is not nearly as large a space as I had hoped to devote to my grow, but it has to do for now. I can expand it sometime around late October.

I have a few things to discuss with you:

1. Hobbes, you said for lighting to use 50W per square foot. I have ~5.4 sq ft. I have two lights, a 200W and a 400W. Based on your suggestions, I should use the 400W, but I'm concerned about the heat. It's a small area and I don't want to deal with too much heat for 2 reason, harm to my plants, and burning my house down. Do you think the 400w light would be too much in such a small area?

2. I was hoping to have room enough to have a veg level and a flower level to my closet. Do you think I have enough room for this? I'm hoping I can work this out because I need to make a little extra cash in order to cover the first few months rent once I take over the whole house. I'll need $1100 extra (over current rent) for deposit and first months rent, plus be able to cover the extra rent per month until I have my first substantial harvest. So I'm hoping to make a few grand, if possible, off my first grow. Am I aiming way too high?

I'm worried about how I'll set this up in a small space and still have everything work out. Each of my lamps is probably 10" high. If I use the 400W, I was hoping I could allow the plants to grow within maybe 8 inches of the light. Is this too close? Even then I don't know if I can fit them. I also need to worry about where the ballast will go.

I'll think this through a little more and get back to you with what I'm thinking.

3. Exhaust/Odor. What would you recommend for odor control? I have heard that carbon filters are the best, but everyone says something different. People on here talk about ionizers, carbon filters, ozone generators, I even found one guy talking about some sort of mineral (Zeolite, maybe?). This is a relatively small grow, but it is really important that I eliminate the odor as much as possible. The closet that I will be using backs to the hallway leading down to the downstairs apartment in my house. I'm thinking about trying to reinforce this wall somehow to make sure there are no holes for odor to escape from, but I doubt that will do much to help the issue.

With this being a small, closet grow, what is the best thing to do for intake/exhaust of air? I really don't want too much odor, so do I need to find a way to exhaust the air from my closet outside? And will I need to bring in outside air as well? I have heard that venting outside air in can bring in enough CO2 to supply my plants, as well as help with the buildup of heat, but then a lot of people seem to generate additional CO2 as well. Do you have any recommendations?

4. I have been planning a SoG, or possibly a ScroG grow, but now am not sure with this small space. Do you think these would be possible in this small space? Is it the best option still with this small space? Or do I need to go with soil?

I think that is all for now. I'm hoping to get this up and running this week. I have the white plastic to line the walls, lamps and bulbs for each, nutrients, and should have 3 clones of AK47 ready in a few days. I will have 4 other clones another week after that.

So beyond these questions, I think I am pretty close to finally getting this thing going. If there are other questions I should be asking, I would appreciate knowing what those questions are, and also the answers to those questions!

Thanks a bunch,

CB

"I am renting the upstairs of a house, with a tenant in the basement. I need to get through the next 2 months, and then I will get possession of the basement apartment too, and have the whole house."

For the next few months you rent from the owner, then you buy? Who is the tennant in the basement? (I'm nosey)

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Veg Room

"34" deep x 23" wide x 58" high"

"Each of my lamps is probably 10" high. If I use the 400W, I was hoping I could allow the plants to grow within maybe 8 inches of the light."

58" - 12" for lamp and hooks, etc = 46"
46" - 8" for heat distance = 38"
12" for pot = 26"
26" for plant, with allowance for a shorter pot.

Not much vertical room for a veg room but if you took 8" on one end, you could make 2 or 3 levels. You could fit 6" pots 3 deep per level or a dozen 32 ounce cups. Leaving you 24" for your flower room. Very doable, you should check out grow cabinets for set up ideas.

Your longest side - 34" - is the depth, so have the flower room in back, with a removable shelf in front for the front for the veg room. You can take the veg room out to get to the flower room. Doable.

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Light Wattage

A 400 watt bulb will cook that little room, 200 W will be hot if you don't get good air ventilation. Lots of reflective material and that'll be plenty off wattage. 200W / 4'sq = 50W per square foot.

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Entrepeneurial Opportunities

"I'm hoping to make a few grand, if possible, off my first grow"

If you have a veg room you're left with about 24" x 23".

If you put 16 clones in 6" pots and get 1/2 ounce per clone = 8 ounces per grow.

Most people go by the rule of thumb that an inexperienced grower will get 1/4 to 1/2 a gram per watt, expert growers 1g+ / watt. If you consider yourself in the upper intermediate grower's class and you get 100 G from your first grow that is how much in people's money?

Patience. Do not get caught. Get your grow set up well oiled and safe. Then push things.

..

"I was hoping I could allow the plants to grow within maybe 8 inches of the light. Is this too close?"

With a 200 or 400 watt that's no problem, as long as you have air movement.

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"I also need to worry about where the ballast will go"

You need to keep it outside the room because of heat. Get some type of furniture arrangement in the room to hide the ballast, you may have to drill a hole in the wall for the light cord.

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"What would you recommend for odor control?"

I have a Can filter with a 400 CFM Vortex fan. If I stand outside the outlet I can still smell bud. Still it's a big improvement. There are other carbon options like the Sock but I've no experience with it.

You can get UV or ionizers to help. Vent on the second or attic story so no one walks by the vent. Have some Ono on hand, get some plants that have a nice smell. An exhaust fan creates low pressure in the closet and room, like the lower pressure zones as you get deeper in high risk bio labs. Keeps anyone in the house up wind of the odors.

Get low odor strains.

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"what is the best thing to do for intake/exhaust of air?"

A good inline vortex fan, flexible ducting, large steel dryer outlet.

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"I need to find a way to exhaust the air from my closet outside? And will I need to bring in outside air as well? Do you have any recommendations?"

You'll need an exhaust hole out of the closet somewhere - you may have to cut one. In the summer you'll want to vent outdoors, in the winter indoors so you don't waste heat.

You do not need to bring air in from out doors. The CO2 in your home air will help the plants.

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"I have been planning a SoG, or possibly a ScroG grow, but now am not sure with this small space. Do you think these would be possible in this small space?"

Yes.

"Is it the best option still with this small space? Or do I need to go with soil? "

How experienced of a grower are you?

The simplest would be running 16 clones in 6" pots or 9 clones in 8" pots. Figure out the stretch for your strain and veg to your needed height.

I've never done a scrog but I've done horizontal and circular grows. Keeps the height low. Here's a thread with some pics.

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/211186-pics-my-garden-ssd-km.html

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Did I miss anything? Oh yeah.

"should have 3 clones of AK47 ready in a few days."

"it is really important that I eliminate the odor as much as possible"

These two sentences do not go together.

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Hobbes,

For the next few months you rent from the owner, then you buy? Who is the tennant in the basement?

No, unfortunately we don't own the house. I wish we did. We moved into a house owned by the same landlady who owned out last place. We've been living in her places for years, and she never comes around for anything, unless I ask her to. I'm not worried about her being around. This is one of the risks I'm willing to take.

The downstairs tenant is a nurse. She's nice, young, but not someone I want to know what I have going on. The landlady loves us, and I mentioned to her that whenever the downstairs tenant moves out, we would like to rent it, so we can have the whole house. She told me just to let her know when we want it, and she'll give the girl downstairs notice and kick her out (apparently she's on a month to month lease). So once I get this closet grow going, I'm going to let the landlady know we want the basement. I was hoping to make a little cash off the closet grow to help cover the cost of taking over the whole house.

Veg Room

Your longest side - 34" - is the depth, so have the flower room in back, with a removable shelf in front for the front for the veg room. You can take the veg room out to get to the flower room. Doable.

This is a great idea. I can definitely pull that off. Glad I talked to you before I started construction.

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Light Wattage

200 W will be hot if you don't get good air ventilation. Lots of reflective material and that'll be plenty off wattage. 200W / 4'sq = 50W per square foot.

I'll go with the 200 W lamp. As far as reflective material, i have a roll of 6mm panda plastic, with one side white and the other side black. I was planning to use that with reflective duct tape for the seams. However, I have heard people say that the metal/foil like reflective material is much better than the white plastic. What do you think about this? I already have the white stuff, so would it be worth it to buy the foil type material?

Entrepeneurial Opportunities

If you put 16 clones in 6" pots and get 1/2 ounce per clone = 8 ounces per grow.

Most people go by the rule of thumb that an inexperienced grower will get 1/4 to 1/2 a gram per watt, expert growers 1g+ / watt. If you consider yourself in the upper intermediate grower's class and you get 100 G from your first grow that is how much in people's money?

I'm certainly not an expert, as this is my first grow, but I feel I'll do well at it even this first time. Taking care of plants to get good healthy yields is what I do. Granted I typically would work with beans, wheat, barley and so on, I think if I put the time into it and treat it like a research project, I will be able to do quite well. I hope.

100g is a small enough amount that I could just get rid of it to my group of friends. It would be the same as now, only I'd be growing it rather than it coming from someone else. They won't know this though, which will help keep me from getting caught, and not lead them to expecting discounts. I could probably make $1200 off that. I would much rather harvest 200g and make double that though. And I won't push things, the most important thing to me is not getting caught, followed closely by being able to smoke my own and not have to buy it.

I have a Can filter with a 400 CFM Vortex fan.

Thanks, I'll look into this. How much do you think I should expect to spend on something like this?


You can get UV or ionizers to help.

I should use these in addition to a Can filter?

Vent on the second or attic story so no one walks by the vent.

I will.

Have some Ono on hand, get some plants that have a nice smell.


What is Ono?

Get low odor strains.

Yeah, this is another issue. I will have a few clones of AK47 to start with, and I know it's smelly. I'll be getting more a week or two later, I'm not sure yet what they will be, but they are strains grown by medical growers. Not sure about the smell yet though because I don't know exactly what I'm getting.

I plan to order seeds, but am anxious to start. I will be sure to order low odor strains, but I really want to get my first grow in for practice while I'm waiting for those seeds to be ready.

You do not need to bring air in from out doors. The CO2 in your home air will help the plants.

Cool, that's good to know. Should I find a way to vent air from in the house into the closet though? I don't want the plants to use up the available CO2 in the closet. Or maybe I could simply open the door to let air in every so often?

"should have 3 clones of AK47 ready in a few days."

"it is really important that I eliminate the odor as much as possible"

These two sentences do not go together.

I know. This is an issue. The guy I'm getting the clones from doesn't seem to think his plants are too stinky though. I wonder if it's a cross of some sort. Or maybe they're not even really AK, I'm not sure where he got the seeds. I'll look into this.


Thanks so much for all your help so far. I'll keep you posted on how things go.

"No, unfortunately we don't own the house. I wish we did. We moved into a house owned by the same landlady who owned out last place. We've been living in her places for years, and she never comes around for anything, unless I ask her to. I'm not worried about her being around. This is one of the risks I'm willing to take."

Commonbean I'd recomend framing up a large box (cabinet) with 2"x4", light plywood on the outside, blackout plastic lining the inside, then Reflectix. You can build to the size you want and put it anywhere in the room that gives you good cover and easy air exhaust outdoors. Easier to make these things than you'd think. It also leaves you the option of building a larger grow area and using your 400W light.

You can lock it, have it secure and no one can open it without your consent. If you modify someone's closet it could cause problems. But if you're comfortable with your landlady and happy with the closet demensions you have very little to break down if you have to hide your grow for a day.



.

"I have heard people say that the metal/foil like reflective material is much better than the white plastic"

I like Reflectix, white plastic or paint are great.

What reflective materials can I use for my grow room?

Contributed by: DaChronicKing
Submitted: 05-07-2003

Choosing the right surface for the walls of your grow room is very important, as up to 40% of your total yield comes from the edge, and the right wall surface can increase the amount of light those plants receive by up to 30%! Artificial lighting diminishes exponentially with distance, so it is important to &#8216;contain&#8217; as much of this light as possible, and direct it accordingly. Reflective surfaces also help illuminate the lower portions of the garden, providing lower buds with light and heat energy.

To get the best results with your light and walls, it is important to get the walls as close as possible to your garden to ensure the least amount of light is wasted. As a caveat, the percentages provided are only useful as a general guideline, as they present the range of reflectivity of the particular surfaces. The high percentage presents the best possible circumstances for that material (for example a 99% reflectivity rating for mylar sheeting would be under ideal conditions - no creases, completely flat, no discoloration, etc).

The best way to determine how well your grow room walls reflect light would be to purchase a light meter and measure your light directly; then take an opaque board and hold it a few inches off one of your walls with the light meter below the board in such a fashion that the light reflects off the wall and onto the light meter. You can then compare the difference between the two and determine a percentage from those numbers, the closer the two numbers are, the better your wall reflects light. It is important that in both measurements, your light meter is the same distance from the light, otherwise your results will be skewed.

Also important to note is that radiant light energy refers to electromagnetic (EM) radiation with a wavelength between 400-700 nanometers (nm) and radiant heat energy correlates to EM radiation with a wavelength between 800-2000nm.

Listed below are some of the most commonly used materials used for grow room walls:


Foylon:

A more durable version of mylar, made of spun polyester fabric and reinforced with foil laminate. Foylon is resistant to most solutions, won't tear or fade, and can be wiped or washed clean.

A great solution for growers who are interested in long term use, and though it may be slightly more expensive than mylar, its durability will more than make up for its cost. It has the ability to reflect about 95% of the light and approximately 85% of the heat energy, so a good ventilation system should be used in conjunction with folyon.

A recommended method to attach Foylon to the walls would be using Velcro, as it makes taking it down for cleaning much easier nd reduces the risk of tearing, creasing or bending it. If this is used for your walls, making sure you get it flush with the wall with no pockets of air between it and the wall to prevent hotspots.

Mylar:

A highly reflective polyester film that comes in varying thickness, the most common being 1 and 2 mm thick. The 2mm thick mylar while not quite as durable as the foylon, is fairly rugged. The 1mm thick mylar tears fairly easily, so taking it down for cleaning is quite difficult without damaging it in the process. Both types of mylar are able to reflect approximately 92-97% reflective, giving it the potential to be more reflective than foylon, but because foylon is more easily cleaned without damaging it as well as it being harder to crease, foylon usually ends up being slightly more reflective. Important to note is that mylar reflects radiant heat energy just as well as foylon (around 85%), so proper ventilation is necessary if mylar is used in your grow room. Attaching this to walls can be done in a similar fashion as foylon, and the same caution should be used to avoid creating hotspots in your room. The 1mm thick mylar stands a fair chance of being creased or ripped in the process unfortunately, even if Velcro is used to attach to the walls.

C3 anti-detection film:

A specialized type of mylar that exhibits the same properties as the 2mm thick mylar, but in addition to reflecting approximately 92-97% of the light, it also is 90% infrared proof, making your grow room all but invisible to IR scanning. This can also be attached in the same manner as foylon or mylar, and the same caution should be used to avoid creating hotspots in your room.

Flat white paint:

Self explanatory; a great option for large grow rooms or for people who are interested in a low maintenance wall. Flat white paint has the ability to reflect between 75-85% of the light, and does not create hotspots. Adding a fungicide is recommended when painting.

Glossy and eggshell whites not reflect light as efficiently as flat white. Semi-gloss paint for example, only has the ability to reflect between 55-60% of the light. Also important to remember when using paint is that any smears or blemishes on the surface take away from how reflective the wall is so care should be taken to avoid marking or staining the walls. Titanium white paint is very reflective; however it is usually only used on reflectors due to its high cost.

Elastomere paint (info by furun)

A rubberized roofing paint with 90% reflection. Good for growboxes. Mildew resistant. Highly reflective.

Kool Seal White Elastomeric Roof Coating ~ $15.00 (1 Gallon)

Ultra high reflectivity
Forms a rubber-like blanket that expands and contracts
Adheres to almost any surface (very good on wood and metal)
Available @ www.lowes.com

White/Black plastic (also known as panda plastic or "poly"):

"Poly" is useful if you are setting up a temporary grow room or don&#8217;t want to damage the walls. Poly is easily cleaned.

The purpose of the black side is to not allow any light to pass through the plastic, which ensures your dark cycle remains dark. The white side is 75-90% reflective. Choose a 6 "mill" thickness of poly for maximum light blockage and duribility.

If this plastic is put too close to the light, you will obviously melt it so be careful!. Panda plastic does not create hotspots. Poly can be attached to the walls by using carpenter&#8217;s nails or using tape glue or similar means. This can be used as a cheap alternative to mylar if painting your grow room is out of the question.

Polystyrene Foam Sheeting (more commonly known as Styrofoam):

This is excellent for harsh environment growrooms (your attic for example), provided you have a good ventilation system and a way to keep the temperatures from rising too high (an a/c unit or similar) as it is an excellent insulator.

It is also a great material for use in a temporary setup or for use as a "travelling reflector" on a light mover, where weight is a concern. It is approximately 75-85% light reflective so it is comparable to using a flat white paint. Foam will not create hot spots. Rigid foam can be purchased in sheets, and can be used as a free standing wall or can be taped, glued or nailed to the wall, the last generally being the most successful method.

Emergency Blankets:

These are ultra thin polyester blankets that are sold in most camping stores and are constructed of a single layer of polyester film that is covered with a layer of vapor deposited aluminum.

It is not very effective at reflecting light because it is so thin. Holding it between you and a light source, many small holes are noticed at the intersections of creases and the entire blanket is translucent to begin with, this coupled with the many creases that are in it when you purchase it takes away a significant amount of it reflectivity. It is very easily creased as well which also detracts from its ability to reflect light. And while it is reflects nearly 90% of radiant heat energy, it is only able to reflect around 70% of the light.

The largest advantage of using this type of material is that it is very cheap and therefore easily replaced. Emergency blankets can create hotspots if not attached flush to the wall so it is important that no air gaps exist between it and your supporting wall. The easiest way to attach this is to use tape (Aluminum or metal tape is recommended), as it tears very easily once it is cut or punctured.

Aluminum Foil:
Aluminum foil is no more than 55% reflective - if used, make sure that the dull side is the one that is used to reflect the light. When it becomes creased its reflectivity is even lower (around 35%.) It is also very dangerous to use because it creates hotspots easily, is electrically conductive, and is a fire hazard when it is in close contact with HID lighting. Attaching this to walls is a pain and usually using aluminum tape or glue is the best way. This should only be used as a last resort, and even then its usefulness is questionable.

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