Eddie McPot
Well-Known Member
Google the "Garrett water carburetor"
Understanding the pH - Research - Am I on to something?
- Thread starter oscarmiya
- Start date
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
In my equation, I am saying there are 6 H2O's needed, in your equation you say there are 12 H2O's needed... How is that the same? Am I missing something? Your plants do NOT get Hydrogen Intra-cellular. It uptakes through mainly the roots and leaves. It HAS to pull Hydrogen from either the atmosphere or more commonly Water as it is 2 Hydrogen 1 Oxygen... Do a little search, I'm not pulling this out of my ass.
This doesn't explain anything but what Nutrients are Uptaken at different pH levels, which are widely known. Give me a chart at which Plant absorb Hydrogen, Carbon, and Oxygen and I will bow to you... and they DO absorb all 3 of those from either Roots or Leaves.
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
That looked like info on a similar electrolytic fuel cell. Pretty much what I am talking about to separate/combine the Hydrogen to the Oxygen.
Did they do Hormone studies or mess with genetic capabilities before they figured out Carbon rockets MJ or any plant at that? Nah, Stoney McClown pry popped a Regulator on his CO2 Tank back in the 60's and blew his plants up instead of Balloons. or whatever lol.. nah- Hydrogen is complex but in this case it seems simple. Simple as Carbon, we all know that increases growth. I'm def. doing this but I am still curious if anyone can debug this theory before I try. Or if anyone thinks it may work... very curious to see peoples opinions on this.
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
My equation is 6 CO2 + 12 H2O + photon energy → C6H12O6 + 6 O2 + 6 H2O
I never said 10 H2O. The extra 6 on the left side of the equation cancel out the 6 produced on the right giving us
6 CO2 + 6 H2O + photon energy → C6H12O6 + 6 O2
which is completely identical to yours.
I didn't say plants get hydrogen intracellularly, I said that is where the photosynthesis is taking place so that's where the hydrogen is coming from during the act of photosynthesis, off of the water molecule.
Relax, I'm not trying to argue, but explain. I'm not sure what kind of chart you want about absorbing carbon oxygen and hydrogen. Roots absorb oxygen and water, whereas leaves absorb the CO2 for the carbon. There is no H+ on the left side of the equation, it is all bound by water. Increasing hydrogen ions does nothing to increase water intake of the plant, only lowers pH, what more can I say.
The reason I included the chart is because it went along with the post that I quoted above about CEC. It explains why plants need a pH 5.8-6.2 in hydro and 6.5-6.8 in soil which started off your thinking (and also why hydro is less forgiving). What he is saying is that the plant does absorb best at pH 5.8 but first has to have a cation exchange with the clay in the soil. So basically, what I said before about having something to do with the buffer capacity of soil is the reason for the difference.
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
Thanks Panhead, good to see you here. I hope this works as well.. If you don't already understand it, reading back this thread should at least give you a good idea of where I'm coming from.
Yea man, I'm not getting short... I am just more blunt when I debate or try to prove something. I typo'd n said 10 I corrected to 12 but I still don't understand how your equation is the same as mine when your's requires twice as much H20 to get the same Sugar Molecule?.. Hydrogen HAS to be absorbed by either roots or through leaves.. the plant doesn't just create Hydrogen itself.. well maybe some plants but not WEED. "Intra-Cellular" or in the leaf or whatever is where photosynthesis takes place... But the stem carries the Nutrients, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Carbon through the roots and leaves to deliver to the "stations" to create glucose molecules. Your right and previously we talked about adding JUST hydrogen atoms. You bind the Hydrogen extracted from one Res. tank to Oxygen being fed through a normal air line, this can be done by electrolysis or whatever. The Hydrogen atoms should reattach to the oxygen in the air line, then a Hydrogen Rich Oxygen mixture will be delivered to your plants roots.
Again I'm not getting short or anything and sorry for coming off that way. I don't dis-belive what your saying in the bottom paragraph as nutrients are readily available for the roots to absorb anytime but soil buffers and released timely as well... Hydrogen could be just as big of a factor, no one ever questions its use... Maybe because not many people knew of Hydrogen Fuel cells until recently even though the information has been right in our faces for years???
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
I'm not a botanist but I don't think you are correct. Plants need oxygen for respiration, but roots don't 'take in O2' and transport it any more than it does carbon. It only takes in and transports H2O and nutrients from the roots up the stems and leaves. Both oxygen and hydrogen are bound in the water molecule. Your comment
just doesn't make sense. It gets all of the hydrogen it needs from water. The plant is 80% water by weight, I think that's plenty of both hydrogen and oxygen.
Think of this, we 'need' hydrogen too, should I just chug some muriatic acid?
All of the hydrogen we need for our biochemical cycles can be cleaved off of the water molecule just like the plant does.
You also said:
You are describing watering your plants.
This is the whole crux of what I'm saying. Hydrogen and oxygen are needed by the plant. It gets most of both from water. Roots need oxygen to respire so the energy created can be used to transport nutes and water. I have looked and cannot find any H+ on the left side of any of the chemical reactions that plants use. Your idea began from the difference between soil and hydro pH and I think the CEC answers that pretty well.
As for the equation. I'm not sure how to explain it any better than is that yours is a simplified version of mine. In order to complete 'one cycle' 12 molecules of water are needed but there are 6 left over after the cycle. If you cancel 6 water molecules from each side of the equation, mine turns into yours.
Here's and excerpt from Wikipedia:
A commonly used slightly simplified equation for photosynthesis is:
6 CO2(g) + 12 H2O(l) + photons → C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g) + 6 H2O(l)
carbon dioxide + water + light energy → glucose + oxygen + water
The equation is often presented in introductory chemistry texts in an even more simplified form as:[3]
6 CO2(g) + 6 H2O(l) + photons → C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g)
By the way. You might take a look at the Calvin Cycle. 6 CO2(g) + 12 H2O(l) + photons → C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g) + 6 H2O(l)
carbon dioxide + water + light energy → glucose + oxygen + water
The equation is often presented in introductory chemistry texts in an even more simplified form as:[3]
6 CO2(g) + 6 H2O(l) + photons → C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g)
In that cycle, 2 hydrogen ions are produced:
3 CO2 + 6 NADPH + 5 H2O + 9 ATP → C3H5O3-PO32- + 2 H+ + 6 NADP+ + 9 ADP + 8 Pi
It got those ions from water too.
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
I know Hydrogen and Oxygen can form to be several different things but depending on the buffer plate things you use for the electrolysis it will do what you want. Whatever the equation is.. it still proves that 3 Elements are CLEARLY needed to create a glucose molecule, Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbon. All 3 can be artificially created and supp'd correctly should speed growth dramatically.... in theoryI'm not a botanist but I don't think you are correct. Plants need oxygen for respiration, but roots don't 'take in O2' and transport it any more than it does carbon. It only takes in and transports H2O and nutrients from the roots up the stems and leaves. Both oxygen and hydrogen are bound in the water molecule. Your comment just doesn't make sense. It gets all of the hydrogen it needs from water. The plant is 80% water by weight, I think that's plenty of both hydrogen and oxygen.
Think of this, we 'need' hydrogen too, should I just chug some muriatic acid?
All of the hydrogen we need for our biochemical cycles can be cleaved off of the water molecule just like the plant does.
Not trying to sound to shitty but this is my last response to you explaining this. I can't explain any more clear but i'm not sure you understand. Oxygen is in H2O. Your plant uptakes Oxygen. If your roots don't need Oxygen then why do you have to put a Air stone in the Res tank??? CAUSE THEY NEED OXYGEN or they will suffocate. I must admit, I am kind of getting a little frustrated lol... Humans are by far more complex than a plant and are in no way a comparison. Just like saying "Go huff some Carbon and you'll grow big & tall".. but thats obviously true for a plant... isn't it? Either you can't see the possibility of something past what has been the "norm" for so long or your being difficult.
You also said:
You are describing watering your plants.
This is the whole crux of what I'm saying. Hydrogen and oxygen are needed by the plant. It gets most of both from water. Roots need oxygen to respire so the energy created can be used to transport nutes and water. I have looked and cannot find any H+ on the left side of any of the chemical reactions that plants use. Your idea began from the difference between soil and hydro pH and I think the CEC answers that pretty well.
I am not describing watering your plants lol. Yes, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Carbon are needed by your plant to grow. Yes, you can grow a plant without supp'n carbon, yes you can grow a plant with the hydrogen in the water you give your plant... I am talking about something past that though... Its clear supp'd Carbon increases growth rate... The Hydrogen is another that could be supp'd and its obvious how big of a role Oxygen plays.
As for the equation. I'm not sure how to explain it any better than is that yours is a simplified version of mine. In order to complete 'one cycle' 12 molecules of water are needed but there are 6 left over after the cycle. If you cancel 6 water molecules from each side of the equation, mine turns into yours.
Here's and excerpt from Wikipedia:A commonly used slightly simplified equation for photosynthesis is:By the way. You might take a look at the Calvin Cycle.
6 CO2(g) + 12 H2O(l) + photons → C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g) + 6 H2O(l)
carbon dioxide + water + light energy → glucose + oxygen + water
The equation is often presented in introductory chemistry texts in an even more simplified form as:[3]
6 CO2(g) + 6 H2O(l) + photons → C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g)
In that cycle, 2 hydrogen ions are produced:
3 CO2 + 6 NADPH + 5 H2O + 9 ATP → C3H5O3-PO32- + 2 H+ + 6 NADP+ + 9 ADP + 8 Pi
It got those ions from water too.
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
No question that all 3 are necessary. My point is that in order to supply enough oxygen and hydrogen that plant needs to to give it water. Think about DWC where the roots are constatly imersed in water. Water, thus hydrogen is not a limiting factor in plant growth unless you underwater, then you can stunt growth because water is necessary for all of these biochemical reactions to take place. Nutrients, light and CO2 are all limiting factors. Water is quite abundant in the plant making any attempt to introduce additional hydrogen futile. I'm sorry if what I'm saying is a bummer because I know you seem dedicated to this but if plants could uptake hydrogen in any form except water (assuming it was necessary in the first place), don't you think some botanist would have figured it out by now? You say that hydrogen cells are new but hydrogen production and electrolysis have been around for quite some time.
More from wikipedia on photosynthesis:
Further experiments to prove that the oxygen developed during the photosynthesis of green plants came from water, were performed by Robert Hill in 1937 and 1939. He showed that isolated chloroplasts give off oxygen in the presence of unnatural reducing agents like iron oxalate, ferricyanide or benzoquinone after exposure to light. The Hill reaction is as follows:
2 H2O + 2 A + (light, chloroplasts) → 2 AH2 + O2where A is the electron acceptor. Therefore, in light the electron acceptor is reduced and oxygen is evolved. Cyt b6, now known as a plastoquinone, is one electron acceptor.
Samuel Ruben and Martin Kamen used radioactive isotopes to determine that the oxygen liberated in photosynthesis came from the water.
Now since the oxygen liberated from photosynthesis comes from water, doesn't it follow that the hydrogen used to reduce the electron receptors also came from the water?2 H2O + 2 A + (light, chloroplasts) → 2 AH2 + O2where A is the electron acceptor. Therefore, in light the electron acceptor is reduced and oxygen is evolved. Cyt b6, now known as a plastoquinone, is one electron acceptor.
Samuel Ruben and Martin Kamen used radioactive isotopes to determine that the oxygen liberated in photosynthesis came from the water.
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
Explain to me please why when your water level of your Res. Tank goes down, your pH level does not go more ACIDIC. Because the Hydrogen is being uptaken with the water by the roots. There is Hydrogen in the water, Correct-o-mundo but there are 2 Hydrogen 1 Oxygen being uptaken by the plant in the form of H2O!! That tells me there is a Ratio that the plant needs Oxygen to Hydrogen. Just as there is a certain ratio kept for the PPM of Carbon to Oxygen.
What your saying IS NOT a bummer, it is frustrating. It is a KNOWN fact that a plant NEEDS hydrogen. It seems pretty clear plants survives pretty well when it receives 2 Hydrogen molecules wrapped with 1 Oxygen molecule. btw, the plant is also CLEARLY taking UP single O2 molecules as well. If it wasn't, there would be no need for straight Air Supply to your roots. Roots are otherwise submerged in water, have you ever tried giving just the roots more Hydrogen with the correct amount of Oxygen using electrolysis? If you have never tried it, I just don't see how you can say it will be of no benefit, knowing that Supp'd Carbon helps a ton! The SAME amount of Hydrogen is needed of Carbon to make a Glucose Sugar Molecule! There should be plenty of Carbon in the air but for some reason when we supplement it, the plants grow better as well.
Ok I just did a search quick, here maybe this will HELP drive my point home.
"Let's look at the first process - the electrolyser. This is the process of breaking water (H2O) into hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). When a chemical charge is applied to water, the charge breaks the chemical bond between hydrogen and oxygen and creates charged particles called ions. In this case, positively charged hydrogen ions and negatively charged ions are formed. An electrolyte, also called an electrolytic conductor, is a conducting medium in which the flow of current is accompanied by the movement of matter in the form of ions. An electrolyser has 2 electrodes where the ions form. One electrode, called the anode, is positively charged, and attracts the negatively charged oxygen ions. The other electrode is called the cathode and attracts the positively charged hydrogen ions. But to break the bonds of water requires energy.
The second process is the fuel cell, or reverse electrolysis. This is the process of turning the hydrogen (chemical energy) into electricity to power our car. The PEM fuel cell consists primarily of four components, the anode (negative electrode), the cathode (positive electrode), a catalyst and an electrolyte. Hydrogen gas pumped into the anode strikes the catalyst (a thin layer of platinum) and splits into hydrogen protons and electrons. On the opposite side of the fuel cell, oxygen enters the cathode. Sandwiched between the anode and cathode is a thin electrolyte membrane that looks like plastic wrap you'd find in your kitchen. It permits the positively charged protons to pass through from the anode to the cathode but blocks the negatively charged electrons which are forced to flow through an external circuit to form an electric current. When the electric current returns from doing work, such as powering an electric motor, it reacts with oxygen and the hydrogen ions at the cathode to form water and heat. That means no smog-forming emissions or greenhouse gasses!
The PEM actually dates back to 1839 when English physicist William Robert Grove first demonstrated his "gas voltaic battery."
Not very hard and even this says the Hydrogen will recombine with the Oxygen because of electrolysis using Platinum splits the Hydrogen protons and electrons. Just as the text say ::COUGH:: and as I said, hook up an air tube running to a "T" connector on your air pump and let it flow out your air stone. It should re-combine to the O2 in the tube by the time it reaches the stone. U got supplemented Hydrogen now. Now you have a fresh UNLIMITED supply of Hydrogen being mixed with the O2 that your plant should be up taking. When these two are lit (heated), the bi-product is water. In the example above Heat is the bi-product of the atoms re-joining however I am sure when mixed in the line and by the time it exits the stone, or mix it at the end and it will recombine on its way up in a bubble, you will not be pissing water through your air stone.
and just to respond to your comment on "IF I EAT HYDROGEN WILL I GROW", "The number of covalent bonds that are normally formed by hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen (the four atoms found in molecules of protein)"... so in a Way YES YOU WILL GROW, as long as you are working out and have a balanced diet. But then again, we are way more complex... but in the end it's just as important as Carbon and Oxygen.
What your saying IS NOT a bummer, it is frustrating. It is a KNOWN fact that a plant NEEDS hydrogen. It seems pretty clear plants survives pretty well when it receives 2 Hydrogen molecules wrapped with 1 Oxygen molecule. btw, the plant is also CLEARLY taking UP single O2 molecules as well. If it wasn't, there would be no need for straight Air Supply to your roots. Roots are otherwise submerged in water, have you ever tried giving just the roots more Hydrogen with the correct amount of Oxygen using electrolysis? If you have never tried it, I just don't see how you can say it will be of no benefit, knowing that Supp'd Carbon helps a ton! The SAME amount of Hydrogen is needed of Carbon to make a Glucose Sugar Molecule! There should be plenty of Carbon in the air but for some reason when we supplement it, the plants grow better as well.
Ok I just did a search quick, here maybe this will HELP drive my point home.
"Let's look at the first process - the electrolyser. This is the process of breaking water (H2O) into hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). When a chemical charge is applied to water, the charge breaks the chemical bond between hydrogen and oxygen and creates charged particles called ions. In this case, positively charged hydrogen ions and negatively charged ions are formed. An electrolyte, also called an electrolytic conductor, is a conducting medium in which the flow of current is accompanied by the movement of matter in the form of ions. An electrolyser has 2 electrodes where the ions form. One electrode, called the anode, is positively charged, and attracts the negatively charged oxygen ions. The other electrode is called the cathode and attracts the positively charged hydrogen ions. But to break the bonds of water requires energy.
The second process is the fuel cell, or reverse electrolysis. This is the process of turning the hydrogen (chemical energy) into electricity to power our car. The PEM fuel cell consists primarily of four components, the anode (negative electrode), the cathode (positive electrode), a catalyst and an electrolyte. Hydrogen gas pumped into the anode strikes the catalyst (a thin layer of platinum) and splits into hydrogen protons and electrons. On the opposite side of the fuel cell, oxygen enters the cathode. Sandwiched between the anode and cathode is a thin electrolyte membrane that looks like plastic wrap you'd find in your kitchen. It permits the positively charged protons to pass through from the anode to the cathode but blocks the negatively charged electrons which are forced to flow through an external circuit to form an electric current. When the electric current returns from doing work, such as powering an electric motor, it reacts with oxygen and the hydrogen ions at the cathode to form water and heat. That means no smog-forming emissions or greenhouse gasses!
The PEM actually dates back to 1839 when English physicist William Robert Grove first demonstrated his "gas voltaic battery."
Not very hard and even this says the Hydrogen will recombine with the Oxygen because of electrolysis using Platinum splits the Hydrogen protons and electrons. Just as the text say ::COUGH:: and as I said, hook up an air tube running to a "T" connector on your air pump and let it flow out your air stone. It should re-combine to the O2 in the tube by the time it reaches the stone. U got supplemented Hydrogen now. Now you have a fresh UNLIMITED supply of Hydrogen being mixed with the O2 that your plant should be up taking. When these two are lit (heated), the bi-product is water. In the example above Heat is the bi-product of the atoms re-joining however I am sure when mixed in the line and by the time it exits the stone, or mix it at the end and it will recombine on its way up in a bubble, you will not be pissing water through your air stone.
and just to respond to your comment on "IF I EAT HYDROGEN WILL I GROW", "The number of covalent bonds that are normally formed by hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen (the four atoms found in molecules of protein)"... so in a Way YES YOU WILL GROW, as long as you are working out and have a balanced diet. But then again, we are way more complex... but in the end it's just as important as Carbon and Oxygen.
diemdepyro
Well-Known Member
people have been using hydrogen peroxide for years.
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
Yes, but that is to kill of organic baddies and to hopefully increase dissolved O2 in the water. If you notice the whole purpose is to increase O2 at the roots, not H2, since oxygen is the limiting factor in plant respiration and H2 or H+ is not utilized directly by the plant.
I have challenged oscarmiya to show me a plant metabolic equation that uses hydrogen on the left side of the equation and all I get in response is a google explanation of electrolysis.
There ISN"T plenty of carbon in the air. If you look at the left side of the equation, CO2 is certainly needed, and through experimentation, we have determined that cannabis can take in as much as 1500ppm. So with room air at about 300ppm, we know CO2 is a limiting factor.oscarmiya said:
I am still waiting for you to show me where in any part of the Calvin Cylcle that H2 or H+ is necessary on the left side of any equation. In fact, I have already shown that H+ is actually produced from the H2O molecule, so supplying additional hydrogen will not make the cycle any more efficient since it has all of the hydrogen it can possible need from water.
Can we put this discussion on hold until we can get a few more science folks here to confirm either one of our claims?
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
No we can't put this on hold. Read up on Browns Gas. Here is a small snippit from brownsgas.com...
HHO = 67% hydrogen and 33% oxygen (Still water but as a gas)
Brown's Gas = HHO but in a different proportion (patented by Prof. Yull Brown)
Other related names: Hydroxy/ watergas/ rhode's gas/ oxyhydrogen/ di-hydroxy/ green gas/ klein gas/ aquygen/ knalgas
During a Brown's Gas mon-atomic hydrogen (H) and mon-atomic oxygen (O) flame, no energy has to be added because the molecules are already in their simplest and highest energy atomic form. This means that "perfect" Brown's Gas can have 3.8 times the possible 'heat' energy that an "ordinary" H2 and O2 flame has (442.4 Kcal/115.7 Kcal).
Its the SAME thing as WATER!!!!!! Just in Gas form and in a slightly higher proportion... PERFECT FOR RUNNING THROUGH your AIRLINE!!! Right now you add TONS of Oxygen to water so the roots do not Suffocate in all the Hydrogen (cellular respiration). There is PLENTY of Oxygen in the water as well, isn't there? Should be a ration 1 Oxygen:2 Hydrogen correct? BUT since Oxygen is combined with Hydrogen Atoms to complete the charge, it needs more Oxygen to breath and metabolize correctly. Now if your feeding the same thing to your plant through the air line in a higher proportion, Wouldn't your plant STILL uptake the Oxygen attached to the Gaseous 2H20??? POSSIBLY UP TAKING MORE HYDROGEN to SPEED up growth?
Doesn't this SEEM clear that there is direct correlation of Hydrogen to Oxygen? This tells me that the plant can uptake Oxygen without Hydrogen attached HOWEVER it can NOT uptake Hydrogen without Oxygen to complete its charge. Now what I am saying is this. If 2 Hydrogen attached to one Oxygen is "Too much" for the plant to breath and a 100g Air pump in a 5g bucket is supplying MORE than enough Oxygen to the roots in order to utilize the 2 Hydrogen attached to Each Oxygen cell then How bout we give it the SAME thing as water, in a GAS FORM, released through your air stone/mixed with some of the O2 in the tube to create a MORE enriched environment for the roots?
Isn't 2H2O the same thing as H20, just in gas form? If you do not believe me, look here
Plants consume CO2 in the process of photosynthesis and convert it to sugar. Oxygen is a waste product of this reaction, in that water is split to form hydrogen and oxygen. The plant uses the hydrogen to produce ATP. This process is only occuring in the day when there is light. However, at all times, the plant is respiring, just like people. They need oxygen for the metabolic process and produce CO2 as a waste product.
ATP is a nucleotide that contains a large amount of chemical energy stored in its high-energy phosphate bonds. It releases energy when it is broken down (hydrolyzed) into ADP (or Adenosine Diphosphate). The energy is used for many metabolic processes. Hence, ATP is considered as the universal energy currency for metabolism.
ATP = C10H16N5O13P3
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
Why were on this whole molecular BS...
Using Photolysis, you can separate Hydrogen from Oxygen, allowing the Hydrogen to bind to an Acceptor. Photolysis can be performed in nature by UVB, and UVC lights due to the wave lengths.
It is kind of known or seems to be a consensus that Adding a reptile UVB light increases trichome production. There is still no proof as to why, just people saying the plant is protecting itself. Just like our skins, it may be considered "Adapting" but we are having to adapt because something is changing in our body, the skin.. i mean is 70% water. Could this be because the UVB lights are Photolysising the Hydrogen from Oxygen, letting the Hydrogen bind to something else, possibly that other something that speeds up Trichome production? Too much light and you rob too much Hydrogen from the plant and cause harm- kinda like we'd get skin cancer?
Using Photolysis, you can separate Hydrogen from Oxygen, allowing the Hydrogen to bind to an Acceptor. Photolysis can be performed in nature by UVB, and UVC lights due to the wave lengths.
It is kind of known or seems to be a consensus that Adding a reptile UVB light increases trichome production. There is still no proof as to why, just people saying the plant is protecting itself. Just like our skins, it may be considered "Adapting" but we are having to adapt because something is changing in our body, the skin.. i mean is 70% water. Could this be because the UVB lights are Photolysising the Hydrogen from Oxygen, letting the Hydrogen bind to something else, possibly that other something that speeds up Trichome production? Too much light and you rob too much Hydrogen from the plant and cause harm- kinda like we'd get skin cancer?
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
So you want to run a highly flammable gas along your air line? 2H2 + O2= H2O + energy from combustion.
Nope, you forgot about dissolved oxygen (DO). Depending on the water temperature, it can hold a certain amount of elemental oxygen (O2). It is this that the plants roots use in respiration. That's why if your rez temps get too high, you can starve the roots of oxygen even though you are still aerating.
Finding a way to increase DO in water is good but has nothing to do with hydrogen.
I lost you here. First off, 2H2O is just 2 water molecules, nothing special. Water in gas form is called water vapor. Brown's gas or anything similar is not water. It is oxyhydrogen, a gas composed of two seperate molecules oxygen and hydrogen.
The electrolysis equation is 2H2O → 2H2 + O2 Correct? When that hydrogen is exposed to oxygen again, it just reverses the equation and you get 2H2+ O2(g) → 2H2O or 2 molecules of water, the same amount you needed to start with. I don't see where you are getting this 'higher concentration' idea from.
There is no supercharged water on the left side of the equation. Photosynthesis can only use water molecules, not Deuterium Oxide (heavy water), not H2O2 (peroxide) or anything other than H2O. Show me the chemical makeup of this supercharged water molecule. So far, all you have shown is oxyhydrogen which at the most will increase dissolved oxygen but at the expense of creating a flammable gas. It would be easier to just use pure O2 through an airstone rather than air which has only 21% O2.
So far you have yet to show me the chemical makeup of this supercharged water molecule. Also, I have already shown that 2 H+ ions are produced during the Calvin Cycle. You also have to demonstrate that plant metabolism is limited in some way by lack of hydrogen. I already showed by using the photosynthesis equations how water, light and CO2 are limiting factors but oxygen and hydrogen are of ample supply and are in fact products of the first light-dependent reaction. Anything produced on the right side of the equation is by definition not a limiting factor in plant growth. Since H+ and O2 is produced in the light-dependent reactions, neither of them are necessary to 'feed' the plant.
This is all basic biochemistry. I understand your enthusiasm about finding a possible way to increase plant production but unfortunately I don't think you are onto anything. We already know everything that plants need- water, nutrients, light and CO2. They also need O2 to respire to create the energy necessary to transport nutes and water into and up the roots. Free hydrogen, either elemental or ionic is nowhere to be found except as a product of one step in photosynthesis. Even supplying a plant with more hydrogen somehow wouldn't increase efficiency anywhere since it isn't directly utilized by the plant.
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
Man.. believe what you want. Your still not understanding what I am saying and I am way to tired of typing a bunch of shit to try and make you understand. Next week I plan to build me a little electrolysis and I will experiment myself.
With that said, this is my very last attempt to try and help you understand this.
If you hold a lighter to your ass your Fart will start on fire. Keep your bowl more than a couple inches away from your air stone (or where ever your mixing with Oxygen) when the electrolysis is on and you wont have any worries. By the time it hits open air it will be dispersed, "evaporated" if you will, in the air. it will be similar to a puddle evaporating on a hot day or boiling a pot of water, same reaction. Just adding a little more moisture to the Humidity!
Your whole thing on Dissolved Oxygen is true but completely null to this conversation. My Theory is based off you know what the hell your doing and have your Res at a proper 68 degrees. Do I have to even say that? Are you trying to get under my skin?
If a plant up takes H2O as a whole, then MAYBE its possible 2H2O, which in all form SHOULD be accepted by the plant to Up take and split apart to be used, since it has just as many Oxygen to Hydrogen in its make up as 2 H2O Molecules do.
Again,
H2 + 0xygen = H20
H2O + H2O = separate water molecules who's charges are already completed... (add a bunch more and you got a puddle)
H2 + H2 + O2 = 2H2O.. A single O2, which the plant breaks down normally to breath BUT now... here comes the "supercharged" part... there would be 4 Hydrogen to accompany the Oxygen in a SINGLE molecule instead of only 2.
Does this still make no sense to you?
With that said, this is my very last attempt to try and help you understand this.
If you hold a lighter to your ass your Fart will start on fire. Keep your bowl more than a couple inches away from your air stone (or where ever your mixing with Oxygen) when the electrolysis is on and you wont have any worries. By the time it hits open air it will be dispersed, "evaporated" if you will, in the air. it will be similar to a puddle evaporating on a hot day or boiling a pot of water, same reaction. Just adding a little more moisture to the Humidity!
Your whole thing on Dissolved Oxygen is true but completely null to this conversation. My Theory is based off you know what the hell your doing and have your Res at a proper 68 degrees. Do I have to even say that? Are you trying to get under my skin?
If a plant up takes H2O as a whole, then MAYBE its possible 2H2O, which in all form SHOULD be accepted by the plant to Up take and split apart to be used, since it has just as many Oxygen to Hydrogen in its make up as 2 H2O Molecules do.
Again,
H2 + 0xygen = H20
H2O + H2O = separate water molecules who's charges are already completed... (add a bunch more and you got a puddle)
H2 + H2 + O2 = 2H2O.. A single O2, which the plant breaks down normally to breath BUT now... here comes the "supercharged" part... there would be 4 Hydrogen to accompany the Oxygen in a SINGLE molecule instead of only 2.
Does this still make no sense to you?
oscarmiya
Drugs Taught Me Metric!
Ok I just read this, lol. You obviously don't understand the importance Hydrogen plays, as seen how so much of the plant material, broken down, consists of Hydrogen as well as Carbon.
Water, light, and Co2 are needed yes... but again, this is PAST whats needed to INCREASE growth. Why supplement CO2 if 300ppm occurring in the air is all it needed? For the same damn reason you should add more Hydrogen to a single molecule balanced with Oxygen. Its not CO2 that the plant uses, its the Carbon, the Oxygen is bound to enable the plant to process/uptake the carbon and later split it up accordingly to what it needs in Photosynthesis while Oxygen is being released back into air as the bi-product. Maybe the plants can live in 1500ppm of CO2, Maybe there only utilizing 400 ppm of that because there isn't enough Hydrogen to keep up with production. I'm trying to think past the "normal" because no matter what you say, there is plenty of factual evidence showing that Hydrogen plays a huge role in plant development and that is one key element we NEVER talk about adding more of. In my theory, its not the straight Hydrogen the plant uses rather a correct balance of Oxygen to Hydrogen combined in molecular form... which I believe 2H2O is. The same way it breaks oxygen from CO2 into Carbon, it breaks oxygen from H2O into Hydrogen..
Just to add a little more. Has anyone ever heard of how adding a electrical current can stimulate plant growth? Possibly for the same reason Electrolysis may work. The current was separating some of the Hydrogen atoms from Oxygen in the soil, after they where out of the current, they re-binded making H2O2- a stronger more potent version of H2O the plant CAN then use. This could seriously explain
A.) Why plants respond/produce differently when exposed to UV lights. (UV lights induce Photolysis, which is pretty much like Electrolysis)
B.) Why applying an electrical current around your garden increases growth. (Really just Electrolysis working here. Not much energy is needed to Separate Oxygen from Hydrogen.)
Go read this... http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9E04E7DD1338F93AA35757C0A963948260 The current they talk about is the Hydrogen atoms and is the SAME reason you can power a LED with a lemon.
As much as you have frustrated me with not understanding... You have made me understand even more. This has to work.
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
yes I understand what you are trying to tell me but I'm telling you why it doesn't matter. There is no H2 or H+ on the left side of the equation of any biochemical process that a plant uses (well, H+ is used in an intermediate step of carbon fixation but I already showed those 2H+ ions come off of water molecules).
I still don't see why you seem to treat 2H2O special. It is just the formula for 2 water molecules.
BTW, there your first 'equation', H2 + 0xygen = H20 isn't accurate.
You need two molecules of the diatomic hydrogen gas, combined with one molecule of the diatomic oxygen gas to produce two molecules of water like you demonstrate in the second equation H2 + H2 + O2 = 2H2O
However, that equation, is traditionally written 2H2 + O2 → 2H20 + energy.
The amount of energy released is tremendous, 572 kJ to be exact. It's an exothermic or combustion reaction, the same that occurred in the Hindenburg and the Space Shuttle Challenger.
So even if somehow 2H2O is different than just 2 H2O molecules, where are you getting the idea that 2H2O is utilized or broken down by the plant to get it's O2? That's why I commented on dissolved O2 since that is where roots get their O2 in DWC, or just in air pockets in other media. In aeroponics it roots respire O2 direct from the air like we do. Roots don't even use H2O molecules to obtain their O2 for respiration, they surely won't do anything to your 2H2O.
Please point me to the post that shows I don't understand the importance of hydrogen in making up the sugars and starches the plant needs. There's no need to be insulting my intelligence.
The only thing we are disagreeing on is whether or not hydrogen is a limited element that by increasing availability (by whatever means) will help increase growth. You seem to think it will, I say it won't. I have asked for you to show me which chemical process in the plant that extra hydrogen is used. Every equations clearly show the plant can only utilize the hydrogen from water. No super water or any other source of hydrogen is used or needed by plants.
QED
BTW, I have a medical degree and am well versed in biochemistry. I am not as familiar with plants as much as animals, but the principles are the same. In fact, many of the processes are identical, like respiration; and others are the exact opposite, i.e. photosynthesis makes sugars from water, CO2 and light energy producing oxygen and water as waste, where respiration takes in oxygen to combine with water and carbohydrates to make energy and creates CO2 and water as waste.
Well our plants can use up to 1500ppm of CO2 in optimum heat and light because that's the number that has been experimentally shown to be the max. Supplementing more than that won't help. Other plants may be different, some up to 2000ppm. The suspected reason is because back when plants were evolving, the conditions on earth where quite different. Temperatures and CO2 levels where higher. The theory is that most plants evolved to be efficient at those levels. Just because the earth's current CO2 levels are lower today doesn't change the plant's genetic potential to utilize more. However, because 1500ppm is closer to optimal, 3-400ppm in room air is a limiting factor since CO2 is on the left side of the equation. Increasing light and CO2 will allow the plant to drink more water if it is available. If water isn't available, the it becomes the limiting factor. If we don't have enough light, it is the limiting factor. Now show me the equation where hydrogen, unbound from water, is needed and will be a limiting factor.
Light, water and CO2 are on the left side of the photosynthesis equation, that's why they all can be considered limiting elements. Too little of any one of them will slow progress. Water is almost never a limiting factor in hydro unless your pump breaks. Since water isn't limiting, adding additional hydrogen in any form, 2H2O or just more water won't help. I can't say it any clearer than that.
Ditto
I just gave myself a mini-refresher on plant biochemistry over the last day.
The reason I mentioned to put this on hold until we can get some chemists or botanists in here is because you and I are just going around in circles. Our posts are just getting repetitive.