Understanding and Calculating Nutrient PPM

2com

Well-Known Member
@2com this is my understanding...

PPM for hydroponics = (mg of element) ÷ (L of solution)

Mass ÷ Volume (essentially)

1L = 1,000ml
1ml of H2O = 1g
1g = 1,000mg
(1,000mg/1g) × (1g H2O/1ml) × (1,000ml/1L)
=
1,000,000mg of H2O in 1L
...
1mg of water takes up 1 millionth of the volume of 1L. So 1mg of water is only 1 part of the million it takes to create 1 liter, or, 1 mg of water is 1 part per million.

PPM compares the weight (in mg) of an element per L of solution,... to the weight of 1L of pure H2O (in mg). It's easier just understood as mg/L.




NPK = (g of element) ÷ (g of solution or mixture)

Mass ÷ Mass

NPK lists composition of elements by weight % of the total.


Example:
100g of "X" added to 1L of pure H2O

PPM:
100g "X" = 100,000mg of "X"
mg/L = 100,000
PPM of "X" = 100,000

NPK:
100g "X" + 1,000g H2O
=
1,100g total solution weight

(100g "X") ÷ (1,100g solution weight)
=
0.09; 9% "X"


EDIT:
Also, the % of P & K in NPK are actually inflated from the true elemental % P & K. For every 2 atoms of P they add the weight of 5 Oxygen atoms to it, and then for every 2 atoms of K they add the weight of 1 oxygen atom to it. So when you see a 10-10-10 fertilizer, there's 10% N by weight, but the 10% P and K is actually describing 10% P2O5, not 10% P, and the 10% K is actually describing 10% K2O, not 10% K.

They inflate the P & K because they were trying to create a labeling system that when the "NPK" values were all the same, that plants would have generally correct ratios of elemental N, and P, and K for growing despite the elemental N, and P, and K not necessarily being equal to each other in weight (like 10-10-10 is saying).

For NPK...
Elemental P is inflated by 2.2914
Elemental K is inflated by 1.2046
Thanks man. That's helpful and simply written. I understand the it better as mg/L for some reason. I think part of the confusion for me is the 1mL = 1g, when for some reason I want it to be 1mL = 1mg, so that they're both the same prefix. If I'd also been thinking that 1L weighs 1Kg, that might have helped. Haha.

When I first learned about the P2O5 and K2O thing I was pissed. I never knew that's the "reason" they say they went with that convention. Doesn't it also inflate the numbers of P and K in every case doing this also though? Haha.

Can I ask what sort of "nutrient/elemental profile" do you aim for? Or are you organic? What do you think about the megacrop ratios? I think I'm seeing phosphorus deficiency from V1 megacrop, could be nitrogen/over low e.c. though. Not sure.
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member


Idk what the best ratio is. I'm a believer that hydro is more efficient. Organic works great. I've heard good things about Megacrop. These podcasts were on the nutrient topic and I thought they were interesting. If I remember, Steve Solomon talks about the ratios for MJ in a bit of detail..

I think the best way to measure fertilizer ingredients would be, by the % of moles per element per total, instead of the % of weight per element per total. 1 part of N weighs 14 while 1 part Ca weighs 40, so when you compare weights it's not saying much unless you know and comprehend the significance of the atomic weight of each element you're weighing.

The plants need certain ratios of elements for certain chemical reactions to take place (remember balancing equations back in HS? Lol), whatever those molar ratios are, will determine how much weight of the element is needed to make the solution balanced.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
That's something I'd meant to add for a "want" for it as well, the types; NO4, NH3, and NH2. NO4 being the most desirable form (at least for the vast majority of peoples applications) - correct me if I'm wrong.

When you say "chart has Fe and Mn way out of relationship values for cannabis..... Fe is too high and Mn too low.. that relationship mismatch can cause some micro blocking and lead to pH issues to." I'm not quite sure what you suggest, Renfro isn't making formulas and ratios, just a spreadsheet that tells you what companies profiles are.
Unless you're just suggesting that he/we just give more detail on the types of "Cal" or "Mg" etc.?
Your N source choices are solid

This chart

Look at the calculated elemental ppm for the Fe and the Mn.

This is not a good balance between the two for one.

What is your soil value and what do you need to use to get them to an available SOIL ppm value of 100 for each?
Making adjustments to soil value should be done slowly. - IF you're being accurate in your soil building for cannabis.

How about the idea that you should be delivering a flat ratio relationship between the two in availability and delivery.
This idea has been proven to raise THC levels in an equal to slightly higher Mn to Fe ratio.
An Fe value of 2.9 and an Mn value of .8 is rather off kilter to cannabis growing....

Understand better now?

Too much Fe blocks low Mn and the reverse too
 

2com

Well-Known Member
You're talking about the ratios of two elements (from what product/company you're talking about, I don't know) being out of whack? And building soil and stuff. I don't see what this has to do with Renfro, or the spreadsheet. I don't know what your point is.

Your N source choices are solid

This chart



Look at the calculated elemental ppm for the Fe and the Mn.

This is not a good balance between the two for one.

What is your soil value and what do you need to use to get them to an available SOIL ppm value of 100 for each?
Making adjustments to soil value should be done slowly. - IF you're being accurate in your soil building for cannabis.

How about the idea that you should be delivering a flat ratio relationship between the two in availability and delivery.
This idea has been proven to raise THC levels in an equal to slightly higher Mn to Fe ratio.
An Fe value of 2.9 and an Mn value of .8 is rather off kilter to cannabis growing....

Understand better now?

Too much Fe blocks low Mn and the reverse too
 

rustyshaclkferd

Well-Known Member
Is there a reason the observed EC ppm is different from the elemental ppm?
E.C is a measurement of a solution's resistance or in our case salinity...it does not tell you the amount or the type of individual elements present. Measured is ms/s , the E.C is often correlateded to a known amount of Nitrogen which is commonly represented in values of 100ppm, 200ppm etc... and the other macro micro nutrients scale from Nitrogen.

The bottle nutrient industry simplfies this to dilution rates of low/med/strong....

Don't trust anyone over 30
 

RocketBoy

Well-Known Member
E.C is a measurement of a solution's resistance or in our case salinity...it does not tell you the amount or the type of individual elements present. Measured is ms/s , the E.C is often correlateded to a known amount of Nitrogen which is commonly represented in values of 100ppm, 200ppm etc... and the other macro micro nutrients scale from Nitrogen.

The bottle nutrient industry simplfies this to dilution rates of low/med/strong....

Don't trust anyone over 30
This is why it's best to start a fresh new solution instead of adding back, You just don't know how much % of each element is in the old batch.

Much more like:
Dont trust anyone out of this range 26-45.
 

rustyshaclkferd

Well-Known Member
This is why it's best to start a fresh new solution instead of adding back, You just don't know how much % of each element is in the old batch.

Much more like:
Dont trust anyone out of this range 26-45.
But you do, based on your given npk values and the proportions minors...but individual elements in a solution will bond or.become unavailable due to interations with other elements overtime...unless you are very familar with your crops resposne to a topped.off tank always mix fresh...its costly. To dump but you can always estimate use and top off at the end
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
You're talking about the ratios of two elements (from what product/company you're talking about, I don't know) being out of whack? And building soil and stuff. I don't see what this has to do with Renfro, or the spreadsheet. I don't know what your point is.
The point is that these elements - as listed. Are out of balance for these minerals.

The product doesn't matter.
The line doesn't matter

The actual amounts available do! FROM ANY LINE!

You don't understand the relationships and interactions between chemicals used in formulating nutrients?

Just because something works ok, doesn't mean it's actually optimal for the plant species your growing.

There is no such thing as cannabis specific nutrients.
There are cannabis specific formulations of nutrients.

If you are building a feed formula from scratch. Balance is very important.

Hence, the value of the Fe is way to high in relationship to Mn in WHAT EVER product was used in that example.

If your going to bother to know what the elemental values are in the ppm of your feed. You had best learn how they should be balanced for the best results....

There is a powdered all in one line out there. People are loving it and it's gaining use in this community. People want me to try it, and give my opinion.

I won't. The K level is too high.....it's limiting THC production..... Sure does make some pretty looking plants. thing is. It is not allowing those who use it, to reach the strain potentials...


Understand my point now?
 

2com

Well-Known Member
The point is that these elements - as listed. Are out of balance for these minerals.

The product doesn't matter.
The line doesn't matter

The actual amounts available do! FROM ANY LINE!

You don't understand the relationships and interactions between chemicals used in formulating nutrients?

No, it's just I don't understand your point (why you're even addressing me, at this point).

Just because something works ok, doesn't mean it's actually optimal for the plant species your growing.

There is no such thing as cannabis specific nutrients.
There are cannabis specific formulations of nutrients.

If you are building a feed formula from scratch. Balance is very important.

I'm not. Nobody said they were. See, this is why I'm confused. Who the fuck are you talking to?

Hence, the value of the Fe is way to high in relationship to Mn in WHAT EVER product was used in that example.

If your going to bother to know what the elemental values are in the ppm of your feed. You had best learn how they should be balanced for the best results....

That sounds rational. You could maybe have just said that to start, and then waited to see if anyone took the bait and wanted to hear whatever it is you want to say, display, debate or whatever.

There is a powdered all in one line out there. People are loving it and it's gaining use in this community. People want me to try it, and give my opinion.

I won't. The K level is too high.....it's limiting THC production..... Sure does make some pretty looking plants. thing is. It is not allowing those who use it, to reach the strain potentials...

Woah, everyone is after you to try it hey... cool. None of what you're telling me has be solicited of you nor requested.

Understand my point now?

No, not really. You come off as a guy trying to show off something he knows about something, when nobody asked. And you sound aggressive about whatever it is, lol.

Just stop. Understand my point now?
 

rustyshaclkferd

Well-Known Member
Ppm and ec are 2 different measurements...neither showing elements present or their volumes. Wanting them to say more then they do is like expecting height to also tell you the inseam

Nitrogen limits THC productions and promotes leaf growth...i see you have all nitrate in one table....that not good

Nitrate gives of negativly charged ion when uptake cuase you soil pH swing limiting access to readily avialable nutrients in your media that has bonded.
Correct me if im wrong but their is not nuetual reaction to nitrogen uptake?

without ammonical being broken down over time as well as a steady source of readily avialable nitrate you end up with to much nitrogen and the other macros it helps facilitates uptake in...Potassium, sulfur, phosphorus

Also heavy nitrate ferllizers have issues with nitrafication as well as lost beneifts of ammonicals assistance in aminos protien
 
Last edited:

rustyshaclkferd

Well-Known Member
Fe is often high becasue of its limited absorption range with mn....

This is where understanding the socio economic factors and not simply the raw data will create a more complex picture. FE and MN are often absorded togethe, Fe fall out of solution very easily, which is fine plants need very little fe, but they need more mn then is nornally available ...hence brand of nutrient isnt as balanced as it says
 

2com

Well-Known Member
Ppm and ec are 2 different measurements...neither showing elements present or their volumes. Wanting them to say more then they do is like expecting height to also tell you the inseam

Nitrogen limits THC productions and promotes leaf growth...i see you have all nitrate in one table....that not good

Nitrate gives of negativly charged ion when uptake cuase you soil pH swing limiting access to readily avialable nutrients in your media that has bonded.
Correct me if im wrong but their is not nuetual reaction to nitrogen uptake?

without ammonical being broken down over time as well as a steady source of readily avialable nitrate you end up with to much nitrogen and the other macros it helps facilitates uptake in...Potassium, sulfur, phosphorus

Also heavy nitrate ferllizers have issues with nitrafication as well as lost beneifts of ammonicals assistance in aminos protien
@Dr. Who This guy must be talking to you. Lol. Certainly not me.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Fe is often high becasue of its limited absorption range with mn....

This is where understanding the socio economic factors and not simply the raw data will create a more complex picture. FE and MN are often absorded togethe, Fe fall out of solution very easily, which is fine plants need very little fe, but they need more mn then is nornally available ...hence brand of nutrient isnt as balanced as it says
Quite true.

Still, if in soil.
The available content by ppm of the spoil can be quite relative to the amounts of Fe used in any nutrient.
Here (as you know) the pH of the media and the reactive available protagonist's, tend to dictate modest use in relation to increasing THC and/or CBD.

Nice post on N also sir.
 

rustyshaclkferd

Well-Known Member
Quite true.

Still, if in soil.
The available content by ppm of the spoil can be quite relative to the amounts of Fe used in any nutrient.
Here (as you know) the pH of the media and the reactive available protagonist's, tend to dictate modest use in relation to increasing THC and/or CBD.

Nice post on N also sir.
Soil is a whole other bag some macro, micro nutrients will by design bond with your soil enzymes_particls and will never show up on TDS, or EC measurement, hell i think potassium is one...really i forget and id have to reread my notes from my nutient managment class

Best clear picture of plant health is a nutrient/alkalinity analysis done on plant tissue, feed water at feeding range and then soil...to find out what is being uptaked what is being feed and what is left bonded in the soil...then adjust based on predicted models cation anion exchange based on your nutrient formulations
 
Top