Unconventional Organics
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Cann
Well-Known Member
No these folks weren't ignorant for asking this question...but you are ignorant for not reading their results! lol.
Results
Soil CO2 experiment.
"Trunk diameter, total shoot length, leaf mass, wood mass, leaf area, total aboveground mass, and soil pH were not significantly affected by the treatments (data not presented). Root length density was greatest for the 5% CO2 treatment and least for the control and air treatments (Table 1). Leaf mineral content at harvest was unaffected by the treatments except for P, which was higher in the 5% CO2 and control treatments than in the air treatment (0.27%, 0.27% and 0.25% P, respectively, P < 0.05). Leaf N concentration in the 5% CO2 treatment was significantly reduced compared to the air and control treatments at all three sampling dates (4.0%, 4.3%, and 4.3% respectively, P<0.10)"
Unless you are super concerned about minute differences in root length density, or for some reason want more P and less N in your leaves - it is a waste of money/natural resources to use carbonated bottled water on your plants. If you are still concerned about root CO2, focus on the microbes - they are the earth's natural source for root CO2. From the first line of the study:
"Carbon dioxide in the rhizosphere is derived from the respiration of soil microbes and fauna, plant roots, and via diffusion of CO2 from the atmosphere (Curtis et al., 1995)."
Just my 2 cents, I am not claiming to be an expert on soil...but this is not expert material. If this process was truly effective it would be employed at nurseries throughout the country. Ask your local nursery and see what they say...LOL
Results
Soil CO2 experiment.
"Trunk diameter, total shoot length, leaf mass, wood mass, leaf area, total aboveground mass, and soil pH were not significantly affected by the treatments (data not presented). Root length density was greatest for the 5% CO2 treatment and least for the control and air treatments (Table 1). Leaf mineral content at harvest was unaffected by the treatments except for P, which was higher in the 5% CO2 and control treatments than in the air treatment (0.27%, 0.27% and 0.25% P, respectively, P < 0.05). Leaf N concentration in the 5% CO2 treatment was significantly reduced compared to the air and control treatments at all three sampling dates (4.0%, 4.3%, and 4.3% respectively, P<0.10)"
Unless you are super concerned about minute differences in root length density, or for some reason want more P and less N in your leaves - it is a waste of money/natural resources to use carbonated bottled water on your plants. If you are still concerned about root CO2, focus on the microbes - they are the earth's natural source for root CO2. From the first line of the study:
"Carbon dioxide in the rhizosphere is derived from the respiration of soil microbes and fauna, plant roots, and via diffusion of CO2 from the atmosphere (Curtis et al., 1995)."
Just my 2 cents, I am not claiming to be an expert on soil...but this is not expert material. If this process was truly effective it would be employed at nurseries throughout the country. Ask your local nursery and see what they say...LOL
ecsdf1
Active Member
Cann-"show me one peer reviewed legitimate scientific study highlighting the effects of carbonated water on the rhizosphere."
me- "ok here you go"http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/32/7/1197.full.pdf+html
Cann- " you are still dumb"
me - the end result you wanted the study for me to post to have was never discussed. you simply said "show me one peer reviewed legitimate scientific study highlighting the effects of carbonated water on the rhizosphere." Was that not up to par? i feel like i hit it on the head that study has everything positives and negatives. Though again because i cannot prove i am right and you are wrong(which i was never trying to do) with copy and paste you insist to vocalize how intelligent you are and stupid others are. CANN YOU ARE A FUCKING DUCK!
me- "ok here you go"http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/32/7/1197.full.pdf+html
Cann- " you are still dumb"
me - the end result you wanted the study for me to post to have was never discussed. you simply said "show me one peer reviewed legitimate scientific study highlighting the effects of carbonated water on the rhizosphere." Was that not up to par? i feel like i hit it on the head that study has everything positives and negatives. Though again because i cannot prove i am right and you are wrong(which i was never trying to do) with copy and paste you insist to vocalize how intelligent you are and stupid others are. CANN YOU ARE A FUCKING DUCK!
Sincerely420
New Member
Cool out kid. I'm sure he's just trying to save you time and effort. Smoke something lol and take the advice or leave it 
Rising Moon
Well-Known Member
This study is not relevant. They sprayed the ground with chemicals, thereby killing the microbes and bacteria in the soil, that produce everything plants need to grow, like Co2.
Maybe this technique works for farms who have no microbes because they spray, but real deal living organics, would shit on that study any day in my book. Nature has her cycles figured out, no carbonated water nessisary.
Rising Moon
Well-Known Member
And one more thing, citing peer reviewed papers in the unconventional organics section is, well, unconventional for this thread.
Scientific studies in the field of agriculture are focused on "fixing" problems and fighting natural systems for the most part.
Even traditional organic agriculture is focused on the wrong aspect of plant growth IMO.
I now see the goal of agriculture is to return the earth to a state of equilibrium, where the needs to the earth, animals and humans are simultaneously met. And the cosmic, earthy, ethieric and Spiritual forces become the farmers main objectives.
An alchemist, with feet on the earth, and consciousness in the stars.
Scientific studies in the field of agriculture are focused on "fixing" problems and fighting natural systems for the most part.
Even traditional organic agriculture is focused on the wrong aspect of plant growth IMO.
I now see the goal of agriculture is to return the earth to a state of equilibrium, where the needs to the earth, animals and humans are simultaneously met. And the cosmic, earthy, ethieric and Spiritual forces become the farmers main objectives.
An alchemist, with feet on the earth, and consciousness in the stars.
Cann
Well-Known Member
thank you rising moon for being the voice of reason...see what I have to deal with here? lmao...
ecsdf1 chill the fuck out dude...ask around...i'm not a dick...just can't stand fools who are advocating the use of bottled water in organic soil LMAO...and especially fools who won't listen when others are trying to help.
yes, i asked for a study, and you provided one. I guess what I should've said is - show me one peer reviewed study that concluded CO2 in the rhizosphere was benficial
and as rising moon said, the study is full of issues. definitely not geared towards organic farmers...but even if you read close you will see that the control and 5% CO2 were basically identical.
ever read the book teaming with microbes? do yourself a favor and get a copy...and don't post again until you have read it. we are trying to help here, but when hardheaded individuals show up and try to push their methods down others' throats with no regards to the consequences (both for your plants, other people, and the earth) I get fed up.
have you ever pissed on your plant? i heard it boosts immunity, stimulates cell division, and increases health in the rhizosphere....
ecsdf1 chill the fuck out dude...ask around...i'm not a dick...just can't stand fools who are advocating the use of bottled water in organic soil LMAO...and especially fools who won't listen when others are trying to help.
yes, i asked for a study, and you provided one. I guess what I should've said is - show me one peer reviewed study that concluded CO2 in the rhizosphere was benficial
and as rising moon said, the study is full of issues. definitely not geared towards organic farmers...but even if you read close you will see that the control and 5% CO2 were basically identical.
ever read the book teaming with microbes? do yourself a favor and get a copy...and don't post again until you have read it. we are trying to help here, but when hardheaded individuals show up and try to push their methods down others' throats with no regards to the consequences (both for your plants, other people, and the earth) I get fed up.
have you ever pissed on your plant? i heard it boosts immunity, stimulates cell division, and increases health in the rhizosphere....
ecsdf1
Active Member
Cann -Unless you are super concerned about minute differences in root length density.
I am. ( more interested than concerned )
Honestly asking your opinion now.The most important parts of the roots are very small so could even a slightly more dense or slightly longer rootsystem aid the plant in any way in your opinion?
I am. ( more interested than concerned )
Honestly asking your opinion now.The most important parts of the roots are very small so could even a slightly more dense or slightly longer rootsystem aid the plant in any way in your opinion?
Sincerely420
New Member
Theoretically, more roots means more branching and foliage, which mean more production in the end.
I guess the fact of the matter is that there are more efficient ways to increase the root mass like treating with mycos, watering appropriately, and maybe using a smart pot? IDK if there one answer tho. More like a few things you can do to help yourself out
A lot of the things they talk about are still foreign to me, but I've creeped around long enough here to see that CN and RM are up to their necks in organics..I'm just getting started ha, so I chime in when I can...like now..
and who knows man..maybe you might find a niche somewhere with the above...Apparently prob not lol, but hey this was for unconventional organics lol.
I guess the fact of the matter is that there are more efficient ways to increase the root mass like treating with mycos, watering appropriately, and maybe using a smart pot? IDK if there one answer tho. More like a few things you can do to help yourself out
A lot of the things they talk about are still foreign to me, but I've creeped around long enough here to see that CN and RM are up to their necks in organics..I'm just getting started ha, so I chime in when I can...like now..
and who knows man..maybe you might find a niche somewhere with the above...Apparently prob not lol, but hey this was for unconventional organics lol.
Sincerely420
New Member
You'd get everything you need mineral wise from Kelp Meal and Azomite/Rock Dust.
You can do more benefical things with the H20 like brew AACT's.
You can do more benefical things with the H20 like brew AACT's
.
ecsdf1
Active Member
Azomite is the bees knees!
Long as you let it compost for 6 months lol More recently i have turned to an electric coffe bean grinder for all of my stone derived amendments such as azomite. It turns them into a fine powder and i believe helps them be broken down by the fung and bac much easier.
one last thing! lol i second what another member has already posted on here i believe the co2 creates a slight disturbance in the entire container ( but not like bumping it where soil just settles and compacts with the roots .... i believe its quite the opposite almost a lifting effect on everything in the pot) kind of an uber aeration!
For the sake of this thread no more carbonated water talk from me! lol
Long as you let it compost for 6 months lol More recently i have turned to an electric coffe bean grinder for all of my stone derived amendments such as azomite. It turns them into a fine powder and i believe helps them be broken down by the fung and bac much easier.
one last thing! lol i second what another member has already posted on here i believe the co2 creates a slight disturbance in the entire container ( but not like bumping it where soil just settles and compacts with the roots .... i believe its quite the opposite almost a lifting effect on everything in the pot) kind of an uber aeration!
For the sake of this thread no more carbonated water talk from me! lol
Rising Moon
Well-Known Member
Why do you despise smart pots?
I just switched over my whole garden to them, loving it!
But now I need drainage tables to step up my game.
I just switched over my whole garden to them, loving it!
But now I need drainage tables to step up my game.
Sincerely420
New Member
I despise them because I had to pay so much for them lol. That's the ONLY issue I'm having is debating whether to transplant a smaller plant like 3 weeks into flowering into the now as my soil just finished cycling..What do you think RM? Transplant or just wait it out?
Cann
Well-Known Member
3 weeks flower...? don't fuck with it. the latest I will transplant is 2 weeks flower and even then I feel it is often detrimental...1 week flower is okay, but still not good. best to transplant a few weeks before flower to give the lady some time to settle into her new home. at 3 weeks you will probably just shock her and reduce budset.
that being said, if you have soil that just finished cycling (what do you mean by this?), you could apply a topdress of the new soil and see if that helps. As a general rule of thumb for most issues, I would recommend a topdress of EWC, kelp, crab, and neem meal if you have it. almost any topdressing will take a week or two to be metabolized by the food web in the soil and reach your plants, so keep this in mind...at 3 weeks flower you are pushing it on the practicality of the topdress.
what issues are you having exactly? it wasn't clear from your post...
regardless, the topdress will provide almost everything your plant needs once it becomes available...can't really hurt
either that, or buy a whole case of perrier and flush, flush, flush! one case (12 bottles) per plant should be good IMO
that being said, if you have soil that just finished cycling (what do you mean by this?), you could apply a topdress of the new soil and see if that helps. As a general rule of thumb for most issues, I would recommend a topdress of EWC, kelp, crab, and neem meal if you have it. almost any topdressing will take a week or two to be metabolized by the food web in the soil and reach your plants, so keep this in mind...at 3 weeks flower you are pushing it on the practicality of the topdress.
what issues are you having exactly? it wasn't clear from your post...
regardless, the topdress will provide almost everything your plant needs once it becomes available...can't really hurt
either that, or buy a whole case of perrier and flush, flush, flush! one case (12 bottles) per plant should be good IMO
Sincerely420
New Member
Click my sig if you don't mind bro, and look at the last page or so and you can see pics the latest pics and maybe that'll help you visualize what I'm about to say.
But I'm not having any issues, I just want to transplant my Critical Jack and a bag seed which, is obviously Sativa dominant to bigger pots.
I just got some smart pots and figured they'd be the perfect candidates.
They've been on 12/12 all but a week of their existence and they're now 41 days from seed, and appear to be about two weeks into flowering.
I did a lot of reading and come to the conclusion that I'll transplant them tomorrow. They're all in a under a gallon of soil currently and want to up them to the 3gal smart pots.
I'm growing in grow bags so I can cut them off without disturbing the root mass at all.
And when I say I have soil that just finished cycling..I mean cooking.
I mixed the batch up a month ago today, so it's ready for use now.
But I've got a lot going on in my garden ATM so you wouldn't be able to understand without seeing.
I don't have any one prob tho. Other than my recent OD of molasses. I up'd the dosage of molaases in my tea to 3tbsp per gal and my plants didn't like it AT ALL. They yellowed progressively from the bottom for a couple day, I did a semi flush I guess as I just gave them an extra half gal of H20, ad I top dressed them with EWC, mycos, and Kelp. Don't have crab or neem atm.
BUT....The OD of Mollases also showed up on the leaves of one of my plants in the form of necrosis.
Would seem like an excess of sugars would show up in the leaves right away given the photosynthesis process...
Besides...Upping the molasses was the only thing I did different last week, so its without a doubt the cause of my issues..
I figure adding the ewcs will help things out and I'll add a layer of the new soil with the next watering to help things even more..
And perrier? what?
ecsdf1
Active Member
I feel what many organic container gardeners feel.
In an organic container grow it is best to keep the center of the rootball and soil/pot moist. The edges can dry out and thats just fine, but when that center starts to get too dry i feel you lose beneficial bac and fungi by the tens of thousands if not by the millions very quickly. ( no bueno )
I like my microherd to take as few "hits" as possible.
I feel the smart pots dry out far too quickly. especially with the amount of fans i have circulating the air in my rooms
I do not have the time to water everyday or multiple times a day so i rock 20 gallon pots with a few holes poked in the sides in random spots to discourage the "root circling". Fill it full of amended roots organics green light potting soil .... topdress during flower if need be... a little of this a little of that and bam!
I have yet to be dissapointed with this method!
I retract my previous statement of "despising" smarts pots.
They just weren't for me ... just caused me more work ugh! lol, but i guess everybodies situation is a little different
If they wrok for you than fuck what i think brotha lol rock them bitches til the seams bust!
Peace n Respect