Discussion in 'Politics' started by Unclebaldrick, Feb 7, 2018.
Nazis love their parades
The purpose built infrastructure provided jobs, so at least there was something positive for the normal man.
Nuremburg was literally a monumental feat that required thousands of workers.
This is a large part of the reason Hitler was so popular domestically, he provided for his people who were suffering under post WWI treaties.
Hitler had such a punchable face. He was only "popular" because you could be sent to a concentration camp if you didn't say "Heil Hitler".
He certainly wasn't popular among his many millions of victims.
He was extremely popular before people found out about the mechanized slaughter of millions.
But you have to bear in mind it wasn't advertized on TV, there was no internet, etc.
The German population knew only what the Reich wanted them to know, as far as they knew there were criminals sent to work camps.
There's no need to get emotional because someone mentions Hitler, try be more objective.
We didn't realize the horrors of the Death Camps until we began liberating them.
who is we?
pretty much everyone knew about the fucking death camps well before we started liberating them.
don't try to revise history to be kind to nazis you worthless fuck.
"We" as in the West.
You're literally rewriting history while accusing me of doing the same.
There's quotes from liberating troops stating they'd no idea what they would go on to find in the camps.
Its not even hyperbole you use, we should call it Hitler-bole.
There's being objective and there's historical revision to defend fascism followed by the old "you're emotional" just because someone disagrees. What you did was the latter. What I did was disagree. He wasn't so popular, people were just afraid not to say "Heil Hitler!" out of fear they'd be hauled off.
Calm down, you're all hyper because you've been getting led through hoops by @UncleBuck in another thread.
the west knew about the death camps. the leaders certainly did,, as did most of the press. it was even reported on and people refused to believe it.
but if you want to live in a pretend world and revise history and pretend that writers for neo-nazi publications aren't racist i can't stop ya.
He had an average of a 90% approval rating...
I'm not saying the German people were correct to support him, only that he was popular with the overwhelming majority of Germans, why does this historical fact offend you so much?
Why are you so desperate to characterize my responses as "emotional" or "offended"? It's almost like you're upset that someone doesn't agree with your defense of fascism.
Calm down. I get that you're all hyper from being led through hoops by @UncleBuck but all I'm doing is disagreeing with you. You're just repeating the same argument and calling me emotional.
Hitler really wasn't as popular as you say. Many people were indifferent and many millions of people were terrified, just like they are in the US with our rightwing populist. He had a media machine who supported his narrative. In fact it is a credit to the US population that we don't let ours (rightwing populist, protofascist) bully us into compliance but there are many elected officials who do oppose him, otherwise he might have the kind of numbers Hitler has. Also, take a look at Duterte. He's somewhere between 85 and 90 percent. He has banned much of the country's media outlets and has basically outlawed an entire demographic. NPA sympathizers and Bangsamoro are not included in those polls.
Do you really think Jews, Jehova's Witnesses, homosexuals, etc were included in the polls to determine Hitler's approval ratings?
Try to give a real answer, not just insist I am emotional or triggered, just because I prefer facts over your ahistorical defense of fascism.
How did you get "defending facism" from what I said?
Ill summarize what I've stated so far:
Germans elected Hitler 6 years before the outbreak of WWII.
Europe was very antisemitic at the time, so restrictions on Jews wouldn't have been an issue people would have given much thought to.
Hitler embarked on a massive program of public works, giving solid employment and social programs to a people hammered under the treaties after WWI.
Hitler was extremely popular, because with the information the ordinary German had at the time, he was a "great leader". Even many of the world leaders at the time admired Hitler greatly.
Hitler's brutality only began to emerge publicly once he had taken the roles of both President and Chancellor for himself.
These are historical facts, I didn't say I admired Hitler or his brutal regime. I think he was probably extremely intelligent for his obviously meticulous planning and the way he managed to trick so people and then fuck them over so hard...but he was also evil as fuck.
Stating someone is intelligent isn't an endorsement, it's stating the potential of their intellect.
Hitler was reviled by most, thugs smashing shops up and daubing painted slogans in the early years was never going to endear their cause to intelligent people. 90% approval rating is de facto fascism, unrealistic therefore propaganda to oppress the people
He also frightened a whole lot of people and marginalized a bunch of people who became victims of his regime long before the concentration camps were even built. There were ghettos and Brownshirts. But you're apparently ignoring all of these people who were forced out of employment and their businesses boycotted. In fact they were blamed directly, for most of Germany's problems.
Now you're on to something.
Many world leaders were also shitstains at that time. Many world leaders admire Putin and even Duterte and Trump seem to admire eachother. So yes, obviously Hirohito and Mussolini did admire Hitler.
I would say this is generally correct and that those who supported him either could not fathom what he was planning or didn't concern themselves with his victims, since they benefitted somehow. However, there were many, such as Hermann Hesse, the Nobel Laureate author who could see clearly the direction Germany was headed long before his consolidation of power.
To put your first question along with this later statement, my point, which I have maintained from the start, is that you focus on his own state-run propaganda as the only pertinent facts. His approval ratings were among those state-run propaganda. To me, that is tantamount to support, but I will accept your declaration that you do not admire him. I agree, he was a very intelligent man and carried out his brutality with efficiency.
My mil had to leave germany with her family at the age of 7 because of hitler and fear of what he would do. She swears to this day that the non-jewish german people LOVED hitler. He wasn't reviled at all. Sure, there was some political resistance, but it was weak and feckless in the face of pure evil. Nobody believed he would do what he said he would do.
She even swears that many JEWS liked hitler. They saw themselves as pure germans and didn't believe he actually meant what he was saying. They were blood lusting germans. They were also tragically wrong.
So as someone once said, when a despot tells you what they will do if they ever get enough power, trust them. They will. Hence we see it in trump; the only saving grace is he is an idiot and is surrounded by incompetents.
But it doesn't take competence to destroy functioning agencies or programs; just a hammer and a third grade vindictiveness. He has that.
At age 7...
One anecdote, by a 7 year old. Sorry but that is worth nothing. Not trying to be a dick, it's just that there really were Brownshirts and ghettos. So "everyone" is not exactly everyone, but yeah, I'm sure "everyone" just loved him.
One third of this country seems to love tRUmp and his hate, I imagine a similar thing existed in Germany and 1/3 of Germans loved Hitler and his hate.
And tRUmp has begun rounding up undesirables using his version of the brownshirts, he's using ICE. If tRUmp thought he could get away with it I'm sure there would be camps set up around the country to deal with these undeserving people.
Sorry, but it's still a first hand account. Her whole family came over, and they weren't all 7. But if you are at all historically honest, there are interviews with both survivors (people who stayed in germany) and those who emigrated to other countries, and even non-jewish german citizens available by the hundreds from the national archives.
All you have to do is listen. Hitler had overwhelming support from the average german citizen. The organized opposition (communists, other parties) were quickly wiped out and silenced. It was as if every media outlet except fox and brietbart and infowars and the like were suddenly silenced.
Americans would love trump if he had media cover like that. Nobody would hear about what was really going on, and those that knew would be too intimidated to say anything.
I agree with all of this. The problem is that even before that, dissent was well identified and never given much of a chance to speak out because there were in fact ghettos and Brownshirts. However, many scholars such as Albert Einstein and Hermann Hesse were able to speak out and did not support the regime which had muscled its way into power. To even refuse to say "Heil Hitler" had very serious consequences as far back as '34. You could see a thousand people at a rally, but you couldn't see the hecklers and you certainly couldn't see the people who weren't at the rally.
You've still only offered anecdote and I would be remiss if I simply took your word for it. Still, you say they left out of fear of what would happen to them. So which is it, did they love him or did they leave the country in fear?
That family unit (father, mother, 2 daughters) left in 1939 out of fear of what he would do. The father had read mine kamph and believed it. He gave up everything and got his family out.
Other members of their family didn't leave, and it didn't end well for most of them. Apparently they didn't believe that hitler would come after german jews. It was the polish jews, and gypsies, and the like, that he would go after. They were germans. They weren't worried. Emigration was largely cut off after 1939. That was a last chance exit, and luckily it worked.
But it wasn't easy, in large part because the us and other countries didn't want jewish immigrants. The us gov't knew what was going on. It wasn't a secret to anyone on this side of the pond. The holocaust was ignored. They didn't want more germans, and especially didn't want german jews. You had to have money, and family who would provide a guarantee. The slots were extremely limited.
But I'll take first ahnd experiences as fact. Sure, it's clouded with anger at times, but the story is consistant accross too many people to be false.
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