Transcending Determinism

This is a question for my fellow determinists on RIU. Do you believe it is possible to transcend determinism and establish yourself in another "reality" where you had true free will while still existing in the here and now? I'm not talking about compatibilism but a true escape from biological determinism, psychological and environmental influences, and perhaps even cause and effect. Furthermore, if ones will just happens to coincide with that of "the universe" and every choice that would have been determined is made freely by you; does this imply free will?

Please let me know if I need to rephrase the question. I had a hard time articulating my thoughts as usual.

NietzscheKeen said:

This is a question for my fellow determinists on RIU. Do you believe it is possible to transcend determinism and establish yourself in another "reality" where you had true free will while still existing in the here and now? I'm not talking about compatibilism but a true escape from biological determinism, psychological and environmental influences, and perhaps even cause and effect. Furthermore, if ones will just happens to coincide with that of "the universe" and every choice that would have been determined is made freely by you; does this imply free will?

Please let me know if I need to rephrase the question. I had a hard time articulating my thoughts as usual.

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wow now that is some deep thinking I like it...would it imply free will ? or would it make us gods ? don't know but I like the question

Thanks, but it's not that deep really.

I should mention, I'd like to leave religion and gods out of this as much as possible. Feel free to make references to non-dogmatic verses and scripture though.

Surely there is someone on here that is mutually interested in this question and would like to help find a possible answer or at least give some opinions. (BUMP)

NietzscheKeen said:

Surely there is someone on here that is mutually interested in this question and would like to help find a possible answer or at least give some opinions. (BUMP)

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question is this the same as predestined or already planned

In some ways of thinking it is. I interpret things as being so chaotic, that it is impossible to determine is something was predestined or not, but merely that we are slaves to cause and effect, biological determinism, and other influences; since every choice we make in life is determined or at least affected by these influences we cannot say that we are truly free. I believe once the events have played out, the outcomes will seem as if they should have been obvious before they occurred (hindsight is 20/20 or so they say); we are simply unable to predict the outcome.

Does that make any sense?

NietzscheKeen said:

In some ways of thinking it is. I interpret things as being so chaotic, that it is impossible to determine is something was predestined or not, but merely that we are slaves to cause and effect, biological determinism, and other influences; since every choice we make in life is determined or at least affected by these influences we cannot say that we are truly free. I believe once the events have played out, the outcomes will seem as if they should have been obvious before they occurred (hindsight is 20/20 or so they say); we are simply unable to predict the outcome.

Does that make any sense?

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makes sense...kind of like the big bang ? the big bang the cause , everything after it the effect...maybe

thepenofareadywriter said:

makes sense...kind of like the big bang ? the big bang the cause , everything after it the effect...maybe

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Sure, you can look at it that way. Deists sometimes use the image of a wind up toy that is wound up, set into place and not interfered with. The big bang must be the effect of something though; I'd think. Every effect is also a cause though. I think if we are going to transcend this chain of cause and effect we would have to have an amazing will power and an unbelievable level of self awareness.

NietzscheKeen said:

Sure, you can look at it that way. Deists sometimes use the image of a wind up toy that is wound up, set into place and not interfered with. The big bang must be the effect of something though; I'd think. Every effect is also a cause though. I think if we are going to transcend this chain of cause and effect we would have to have an amazing will power and an unbelievable level of self awareness.

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when you think about it every effect would have to be a cause just like the falling of the dominos. will I believe it could be done...maybe we would need to be able to see or recognize a certain cause of an effect...before it actually reached you.

But wouldn't the recognition of the impending cause be a cause in itself?

NietzscheKeen said:

But wouldn't the recognition of the impending cause be a cause in itself?

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lol...yes will... back to square one.

NietzscheKeen said:

This is a question for my fellow determinists on RIU. Do you believe it is possible to transcend determinism and establish yourself in another "reality" where you had true free will while still existing in the here and now? I'm not talking about compatibilism but a true escape from biological determinism, psychological and environmental influences, and perhaps even cause and effect. Furthermore, if ones will just happens to coincide with that of "the universe" and every choice that would have been determined is made freely by you; does this imply free will?

Please let me know if I need to rephrase the question. I had a hard time articulating my thoughts as usual.

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Free will seems to be guided instead of actualy free IMO,not so much guided by any outlying entity or some otherly will.I say that very same will is guided within the principle of determinism ,I would not go so far as to say so much as compatiblism either,though it somewhat is.What I mean to say is we exist from the mechanics of past,present,future and the natural existential order of creation, the coalescence of matter into form-,preservation or the time in which something is able to persist in a form, and destruction,when a form can longer sustain, it disintegrates and will eventualy rearrange, as a great portion of the paradigm that progressed to being here and now for us<I know it sounds like its from from Hinduism but I do not State it with any religious context.Also O find it hard to really attach that the Universe itself would have any sort of will,so basicaly its like me saying that whatever we will as a sentiential being is the universe's just the same.To me it just dosent seem to fit the bill.As far as transcending this mechanic goes,,,,we dont seem to have any choice whatsoever nor will we Im afraid at least on the objective scale.The way I see IT, is that this transcendant state you speak of can be achieved with psychadelics,but then thats were we go to the subjective criteria.
I dont mean to sound as if I were nay saying your idea,I am merely giving my opinion.

Hey NK. The free will question has been addressed in several threads, but not since you've been here. I don't know what you mean in the OP by transcending determinism, but I found a post of mine in an old thread that's still valid -

tyler.durden said:

I really love the idea of free will, and I had defended it all of my life until recently. But other great thinkers (including BeefBiscuit and GW) had too much evidence for me to keep that belief. We have the illusion of free will, that we are making choices, but experiments show that we are only aware of our decisions in retrospect; the conscious mind realizes what the choice a split second after it has been made. So, we're obviously not consciously making the choices. Coupled with physicists like Brian Greene demonstrating that the future is set, already exists, and is as real as the past and present (Hawking asks 'Why can we remember the past, but not the future?') So, with this information I just couldn't keep the belief in free will, how would it exist if the future is set? It's a cool illusion and gives much spice to life. Although things are already determined they are not yet determinable, so we still don't know exactly what coming up. That's good enough for me...

P.S. Check out chapter 4 of this Nova to watch Brian explain a little of what I'm referring to, you skip to 18:56 in for about 10 minutes...

[video=youtube;NxuZnMEcGVY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxuZnMEcGVY[/video]

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I apologize for reposting then.

If I understand your post correctly, it sounds like we agree. What I meant by transcending determinism, for lack of a better term, was breaking free of the cycle of cause and effect or to truly establish your will as free though the rest of the universe remained determined. You understand what they mean when Buddhists attain Nirvana or Hindus eliminate Karma from their lives; I guess this could be seen as a similar goal for humans... to escape the causality of our universe. Forgive me, its a new thought for me and I haven't yet figured out how to express the idea fully.

No need for apologies, NK, I was simply pointing out that there's been several threads on the topic in the last few years. It's a worthwhile topic, beats the shit out of scripture and aliens. I see now what you mean by transcending determinism, I can't see this as a possibility, how can we separate ourselves from the physics that govern everything in the universe? I guess that is why concepts like karma and reincarnation are bullshit

Sure, well we can agree that the idea is impractical, but it doesn't readily appear to me to be impossible. I'm trying to list some of the changes and "advancements" that would have to occur to allow the transcendence to occur.

The first and foremost, in my eyes, being a complete self awareness; a level that beyond anything any of us have acquired.
Secondly, I would think the knowledge of the past, at least the immediate past and knowledge of a broad scope; not so deep but wide.
Thirdly, an infallible understanding of cause and effect with which we can interpret and analyze the past events; However, this would also require us to understand all the possible effects a single cause can have.
This is obviously too much for any human to handle as every step along the way, every minute step, would require a complete and thorough analysis the likes of which are mentioned prior.

I do believe karma is bullshit as well as reincarnation and transmigration to an extent, but that's a different thread, lol.

I don't see how any level of self awareness makes any difference in determinism, nor the ability to predict future events. If the past, present and future already exist, and the linear passage of time is a type of illusion from our perspective, how could we possibly change that with any technology? In the video I posted, if aliens are moving toward Earth over vast distances they would see far into our future. Any alien would see the exact same future, not different possible futures. So, if the future already exists there is no way to change it. I liken it to a book that is written and finished: we as conscious characters in the book feel as if we are free to make choices, but since the book is complete this wouldn't be possible. I'd love to think otherwise, but I cannot get past these facts...

I see what you are saying, but I'm not convinced that the future already exists. I think that is where our disconnect is, mostly. In a way, the only thing that actually exists is the here and now. I'm also not toying with the idea of technology being a part of the equation. Self awareness would allow us to understand our psychological predilection and tendencies; our instincts that we are slave to; thus allowing us to no longer be a slave to our own mental states, socialization and conditioning. I'm just toying around with the idea because it seems to me that if that transcendence were possible, then THAT would be the true liberation sought after by so many religions and individuals. I'm in no way claiming to be correct, I know you understand this. I am just used to having to clarify that to people on RIU.

I admit, I didn't finish the video, lol. It's long. I will try to watch the whole thing this evening.

OH! ok. I see where you are coming from. Your idea of determinism is that everything is already written; more of a predeterminism... I get your book analogy now. My idea is different in that the future is not determined, but it seems as if it could be as you trace the chain from past to present.

NietzscheKeen said:

Sure, well we can agree that the idea is impractical, but it doesn't readily appear to me to be impossible. I'm trying to list some of the changes and "advancements" that would have to occur to allow the transcendence to occur.

The first and foremost, in my eyes, being a complete self awareness; a level that beyond anything any of us have acquired.
Secondly, I would think the knowledge of the past, at least the immediate past and knowledge of a broad scope; not so deep but wide.
Thirdly, an infallible understanding of cause and effect with which we can interpret and analyze the past events; However, this would also require us to understand all the possible effects a single cause can have.
This is obviously too much for any human to handle as every step along the way, every minute step, would require a complete and thorough analysis the likes of which are mentioned prior.

I do believe karma is bullshit as well as reincarnation and transmigration to an extent, but that's a different thread, lol.

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...I really do like this it does get you to thinking. even though it does seem impossible...you would have to be able to not only have see the future but you would also have to find a way not to be the cause or the effect...and it seems the only way you could do that would be through death. and even then you would still be some type of cause and effect...so it seems to me the only other way to do it would have to be some type of out of body experience...some totally out of the norm of nature.