TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
@RangiSTaxi
I'm undecisive if I should primarily order 660nms or 730nms... plus I'd like to increase the luminosity of these considerably - considering I put my plants in flower under a 150w HPS... I have to cover a 1.44m^2 area, maybe 16*730nms and 32*660nms? Which are supporting 4*Cree COBs @75w each, which is too low for that area, but plan to combine that with a center HID... that could even be a 150w or 250w HPS which I could leave on during the night, as well.

edit:
BTW how great is the area you light out with your setup? Would it perhaps possible to disconnect the 2 730nms? Perhaps block the light, in order to reduce variables....
what do you think, if you would just do a guess, how much could you increase the 660nm luminosity before something unexpected happens?
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
shorter bloom time equates higher yields if one runs perpetual.
Only by volume produced over time......The time gained in about anything I have tried - Not cost effective!

How can you know that?
Schooling

There's also 730nms present - constantly, somewhat forceing the buildup of Pfr - enforcing flower while still allowing the plant to be wake.
But it's not even much Far Red at all.
It takes almost 2 hrs in nature to induce.
In doors under HID, about the same.
730 nm band LED's take less then 15 min to do the same thing.
The looping is self perpetuating.....I want plant gains recorded, by acceptable scientific method.....
So far we have logic theory...

I know some professional grow shop in Austria that sell cuts from cup-winning strains who veg entirely for 24/0. They do fine. Photorespiration does happen during the day-time, too, otherwise these plants would die due to toxic buildup.

This article proves that 24/0 light can even get better results than 18/6, please read carefully it's very interesting:
I still strongly disagree. This comes from 45+ years of working this plant.... I do not say the plant can't grow, and grow well under 24/0. I don't believe that you can reach top potentials with it's practice...

The gains are again, not worth the cost of...

Conventional 12/12:
Lights on: high luminosity
Lights out: NOT high luminosity

TORR:
Lights on: high luminosity
Lights out: NOT high luminosity

--> it's the same.
NO, IT"S NOT!! and the proof is in exactly HOW you said it!

You need to correct the statement of the first part under Conventional...
LIGHTS OUT should be NO luminosity!!!

Part two would be In the TORR section...
While correct in a way.
I might be inclined to change it to LOW Luminosity..

Now some years ago. I stuck a plant outside - near a High watt CFL - say over 20 ft away..

The side of the plant that was exposed to the light. Took 2+ weeks longer to finish then the shaded side.

This is an example of low light exposure - NO herming, No balls, No stress induced reproduction....
The little tiny bit of light you might get from a pin hole or something in a tent. Was never the cause of herming. It was simply not understood at the time why and it was a fair guess.

Now I understand that there is a big difference in the light bands.. It's part/all of the reason the plant is not revegging.

But I still say the returns will not equal some breakthrough in new lighting methods! Lets just says I've been around too long and have enough class and lab time to say this isn't going far....

I'll wait and see what happens... BTW, I have several call backs from MSU coming tonight... these proffs are on the front line. Lets see what they say..

Offence? None taken! Enjoying the debate!
 

RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
@RangiSTaxi
I'm undecisive if I should primarily order 660nms or 730nms... plus I'd like to increase the luminosity of these considerably - considering I put my plants in flower under a 150w HPS... I have to cover a 1.44m^2 area, maybe 16*730nms and 32*660nms? Which are supporting 4*Cree COBs @75w each, which is too low for that area, but plan to combine that with a center HID... that could even be a 150w or 250w HPS which I could leave on during the night, as well.

edit:
BTW how great is the area you light out with your setup? Would it perhaps possible to disconnect the 2 730nms? Perhaps block the light, in order to reduce variables....
what do you think, if you would just do a guess, how much could you increase the 660nm luminosity before something unexpected happens?
Hi Kassiopeija/DrWho, I have 2 tents,both with the same setup, only one is active at the moment, The area of the tent is 4x4 my main light is a HLG 550 light is about 45cm above the plants, the red strip is in the middle of the HLG 550. I dont know if increasing the red luminosity would prevent flowering, it might I expect, however these reds are very bright visually, Lux around 900-1300 at plant height at 45cm-50cm above the canopy.
I recommend trying some fast flowering varieties with the method like seedsman big nugs fast as I think they will start flowering sooner and easier than say longer flowering varieties. I cant say regarding the 660nm or 730nm, all I know is I have 10 660nm and 2 far reds, (the layout of the reds can be clearly seen in the pics) One might assume all 730nm just at night would work better, but I haven't tested. The advantage of the 660mn is added photosynthesis. If you change things your results may vary. you could tape over the far reds with thermal tape I imagine if you wanted to try all 660mn with the cutter strip, I will see out this grow and probably forget the reds entirely. As Im using the reds with the whites it probably makes no sense to have the far reds going during day light hours but simply haven't bothered setting them on a timer I just have the reds going 24/7 and the white HLG 550 V1 is on a 12 off 12 on timer. also I veg at 24 hours simply because Im lazy and couldn't be bothered adding a timer, I agree that 18/6 or 20/4 would probably be better in veg for root growth, I think under 24 hours you get more stem leaf growth at the expense of root growth, well thats been my experience, but either 24, 18/6 or 20/4 is fine by my books.
I haven't being trying to do things the best I could, or using best practice, its simply been just a side hobby and not that important to me at the moment.
Basically been a no effort lazy grow. Not trying to prove anything here just showing whats been happening. Why I dont know, its been unexpected.IMG_20200306_181936.jpgIMG_20200306_181941.jpgIMG_20200306_182013_1.jpgIMG_20200306_182022.jpg
I haven't even feed any nutrients just water. I will update the progress, but its looking like the quality will be fine.
A lot of Stretch though but these are un tipped plants, no topping.
Part of the potting mix was used potting mix as I didnt have enough new stuff, hence the old dead leaves you can see on the ground from the previous grow. Also its been very hot as its summer here, and temps have been excessive above 35 degrees at times, although running at 22-24 degrees now as I have air con going now and we are moving closer to Autumn now, also with shallow trays I wonder if this lowers the flowering threshold some what. Stressed plants tend to flower easier. Although I have done over 4 grows (2 Tents) now with different strains and they all flower, often quicker to initiate and finish than usual it seems. World of seeds Pakistan valley finished in 30-35 days ( the fastest turn over ive ever had, it was just crazy. The Plants in the photos are Garden of Greens Kosher Kush seeds.
 
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Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Hello Doc & RangiSTaxi :D
Not cost effective!
This is not an argument for me in this case - because we are here inquiring into a phenomenae which we do not fully understand, so the practical or economical application must wait until the mechanism at large is fully understand and then we first can venture on to find a pragmatic solution. I'm also not a commercial grower but merely a homegrower so my main attitude is to understand how plants do work and what tools we do have at our disposal to get them to where we want. It's not about money, really...

Think about this: Space on earth is limited. Human population is exponentionally growing. At some point humans won't be able to be fed. At that point, it will be more of an interest to increase the harvest output of the area at hand - even if it means food will become more expensive. Then the money will be there.

Schooling
which should enable to explain your position using precise scientific discipline-specific terms or disprove an opponents alleged wrong points by it, and you should already know, and be able to refer to the relevant scientific studies of the matter at hand.
Only pointing out thast your more intelligent than me is not satisfactory to me, at all :D

A few years ago I read about Sir Karl Popper, which established some scientific standards, one is the concept of falsification. He also spent a large part of his time to divide genuine science from pseude-science - one of the main factors in doing is so is the concept of criticism - which needs transparency in advance. You shouldn't hide your logical rationales from me, nor your sources, because *maybe* they are not relevant in this case, or you've misinterpreted them. I need the chance to backcheck this:
I suggest you deeply research the light saturation point in C3 plants. Understanding just what is going on during the lights out period and what it's doing for the plant, is a solid step to understanding that need. This is just part of what the plants doing at lights out too.
do you perhaps have a few more keywords, with internal plant processes that are relevant in this case. Especially such of what plants to in the dark phase.
The University of Hohenheim is nearby and they do have an open library, where even visitors are allowed to do silent reading, or photocopying of texts. However, these sources are plentyful... I need to have keywords to plough through the glossary... it would also save me time....

I still strongly disagree. This comes from 45+ years of working this plant.... I do not say the plant can't grow, and grow well under 24/0. I don't believe that you can reach top potentials with it's practice...
Thing is this article states that an AI can grow plants better than humans. The evaluated that by THE RESULTS! Furthermore, it's not a single isolated study but has grown into a multinational worldy experiment - I've followed the links to their forums. They are offering the AI routines free to download in an open source project and growers of all kinds of indoor vegetables are reporting back with their results, and feed additional data which the scientists use to better the AI source code - even the AI is self-learning and will get better and better over time, as the data at its disposal is ever-mounting. This is something new, yes, in stark contrast of the old school teachings. Nevertheless, the evidence is there.

I wonder what the AI would do if someone gives it the control over a fully automated, climate-controlled cannabis grow chamber?

NO, IT"S NOT!! and the proof is in exactly HOW you said it!

You need to correct the statement of the first part under Conventional...
LIGHTS OUT should be NO luminosity!!!

Part two would be In the TORR section...
While correct in a way.
I might be inclined to change it to LOW Luminosity..
Well, there are many ways to do logical abstractations, and mine wasn't violating the logical rational rules to begin with. But the question in charge is if this logic does actually apply here - or not.
I'm drawing a different logical abstractation because I operate under a different pre-text:
I ASSUME that "low lights" equates "no lights" because I ASSUME (again) that plants do have a certain inbuilt tolerance, or internal breaking point (for a lack of a better word....). This is not fully arbitrary, because I already know that these kinds of "breaking points" do exist - e.g. the Pfr-hormone buildup - it crosses a certain threshold, and the plant goes from veg to gen.
There's also this:

I wonder if the 900-1300 lux have already crossed the sunplant ("Sonnenpflanze") line?
We need someone here that can do the math of converting 660nms lux into uMol... (@Grow Lights Australia @hybridway2)

Now some years ago. I stuck a plant outside - near a High watt CFL - say over 20 ft away..

The side of the plant that was exposed to the light. Took 2+ weeks longer to finish then the shaded side.
But a CFL has a different output than a 660nm mono - but actually I don't know. CFLs come in all sorts of different colors, but from what I've seen from them they have generally several spikes and a much broader distribution on the bandwiths than a mono - much broader.

I'm also thinking that blue light is more of a telltale sign for plants to "awake" than red - it would make sense from a certain standpoint.
I wonder if you'd come to the same results with just 660nms, or a 660/730 combo.

This is an example of low light exposure - NO herming, No balls, No stress induced reproduction....
Yes, this alleged of "herming" due to light leaks has never appealed to me at all. Herming is still natural in cannabis and the "stress" induced to provocate it may as well being not pollenized (which is unnatural). If light leaks could do all these sorts of things the plant would also revegg at some places.

however these reds are very bright visually, Lux around 900-1300 at plant height
that's not much at all - during a normal day phase lux is around 30k-80k - otherwise they'll stretch. So, 1k lux could as well interpretated from the plant as being night. There are actually some plants which are in conjunction with the moon-phases because they still can sense the light of the moon during the night.

no sense to have the far reds going during day light hours
AFAIK daylight destroys the Pfr-buildup rather quickly so yes... but on the other hand the 730nm band is also contained in sunlight, so I'm not sure...

20/4 is fine by my books.
Yeah if you finish with FR that would be a good setting for veg

A lot of Stretch though
Donno I find them just about to be perfect. Bewcause, if you have too dense plants then light penetration into the bottom or middle parts of the plant is going to suffer. Also hybrid buds can take on a somewhat more elongated form than mostly indica strains so they can use that space.

although running at 22-24 degrees
For LED that's a tad too low - but the real figure is leaf temperature - that should be around 25°C minimum. You have an IR pointer pistol to measure that? For LED 30°C ambient is still very good.

World of seeds Pakistan valley finished in 30-35 days ( the fastest turn over ive ever had, it was just crazy.
How do these buds look?

BTW thanks for the pics, your setup looks nice

I started this just as a idea to keep plants in Veg to cut power costs, but they started flowering on me.
Yeah this is why I've been confused initially and asked some questions^^ maybe change the title then to TORR flowering or else?
 

hybridway2

Amare Shill
Hello Doc & RangiSTaxi :D

This is not an argument for me in this case - because we are here inquiring into a phenomenae which we do not fully understand, so the practical or economical application must wait until the mechanism at large is fully understand and then we first can venture on to find a pragmatic solution. I'm also not a commercial grower but merely a homegrower so my main attitude is to understand how plants do work and what tools we do have at our disposal to get them to where we want. It's not about money, really...

Think about this: Space on earth is limited. Human population is exponentionally growing. At some point humans won't be able to be fed. At that point, it will be more of an interest to increase the harvest output of the area at hand - even if it means food will become more expensive. Then the money will be there.


which should enable to explain your position using precise scientific discipline-specific terms or disprove an opponents alleged wrong points by it, and you should already know, and be able to refer to the relevant scientific studies of the matter at hand.
Only pointing out thast your more intelligent than me is not satisfactory to me, at all :D

A few years ago I read about Sir Karl Popper, which established some scientific standards, one is the concept of falsification. He also spent a large part of his time to divide genuine science from pseude-science - one of the main factors in doing is so is the concept of criticism - which needs transparency in advance. You shouldn't hide your logical rationales from me, nor your sources, because *maybe* they are not relevant in this case, or you've misinterpreted them. I need the chance to backcheck this:

do you perhaps have a few more keywords, with internal plant processes that are relevant in this case. Especially such of what plants to in the dark phase.
The University of Hohenheim is nearby and they do have an open library, where even visitors are allowed to do silent reading, or photocopying of texts. However, these sources are plentyful... I need to have keywords to plough through the glossary... it would also save me time....


Thing is this article states that an AI can grow plants better than humans. The evaluated that by THE RESULTS! Furthermore, it's not a single isolated study but has grown into a multinational worldy experiment - I've followed the links to their forums. They are offering the AI routines free to download in an open source project and growers of all kinds of indoor vegetables are reporting back with their results, and feed additional data which the scientists use to better the AI source code - even the AI is self-learning and will get better and better over time, as the data at its disposal is ever-mounting. This is something new, yes, in stark contrast of the old school teachings. Nevertheless, the evidence is there.

I wonder what the AI would do if someone gives it the control over a fully automated, climate-controlled cannabis grow chamber?


Well, there are many ways to do logical abstractations, and mine wasn't violating the logical rational rules to begin with. But the question in charge is if this logic does actually apply here - or not.
I'm drawing a different logical abstractation because I operate under a different pre-text:
I ASSUME that "low lights" equates "no lights" because I ASSUME (again) that plants do have a certain inbuilt tolerance, or internal breaking point (for a lack of a better word....). This is not fully arbitrary, because I already know that these kinds of "breaking points" do exist - e.g. the Pfr-hormone buildup - it crosses a certain threshold, and the plant goes from veg to gen.
There's also this:

I wonder if the 900-1300 lux have already crossed the sunplant ("Sonnenpflanze") line?
We need someone here that can do the math of converting 660nms lux into uMol... (@Grow Lights Australia @hybridway2)


But a CFL has a different output than a 660nm mono - but actually I don't know. CFLs come in all sorts of different colors, but from what I've seen from them they have generally several spikes and a much broader distribution on the bandwiths than a mono - much broader.

I'm also thinking that blue light is more of a telltale sign for plants to "awake" than red - it would make sense from a certain standpoint.
I wonder if you'd come to the same results with just 660nms, or a 660/730 combo.


Yes, this alleged of "herming" due to light leaks has never appealed to me at all. Herming is still natural in cannabis and the "stress" induced to provocate it may as well being not pollenized (which is unnatural). If light leaks could do all these sorts of things the plant would also revegg at some places.


that's not much at all - during a normal day phase lux is around 30k-80k - otherwise they'll stretch. So, 1k lux could as well interpretated from the plant as being night. There are actually some plants which are in conjunction with the moon-phases because they still can sense the light of the moon during the night.


AFAIK daylight destroys the Pfr-buildup rather quickly so yes... but on the other hand the 730nm band is also contained in sunlight, so I'm not sure...


Yeah if you finish with FR that would be a good setting for veg


Donno I find them just about to be perfect. Bewcause, if you have too dense plants then light penetration into the bottom or middle parts of the plant is going to suffer. Also hybrid buds can take on a somewhat more elongated form than mostly indica strains so they can use that space.


For LED that's a tad too low - but the real figure is leaf temperature - that should be around 25°C minimum. You have an IR pointer pistol to measure that? For LED 30°C ambient is still very good.


How do these buds look?

BTW thanks for the pics, your setup looks nice


Yeah this is why I've been confused initially and asked some questions^^ maybe change the title then to TORR flowering or else?
Sorry bud but my math is limited to counting 50, 20's to G. Lol!
I'm more About results in the garden.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
@RangiSTaxi
btw the CMX fert isn't available here in my country, and an import from the UK is 30€/l - too expensive. However, the concept of slicing out P & K seems intriguing to me - under a certain standpoint: Could it be that it gives a full fertilizer when used in combo with a PK fert like PK 13/14? Then one could use this for the full cycle like A & B, just you dosage PK low in veg, but higher from mid-to-end flower?
I've been at the homesite but wasn't able to see a full list of ingredients - are these listed at the bottle? Because I wonder if S is also contained and at what strength the micronutes are contained?
 

RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
@RangiSTaxi
btw the CMX fert isn't available here in my country, and an import from the UK is 30€/l - too expensive. However, the concept of slicing out P & K seems intriguing to me - under a certain standpoint: Could it be that it gives a full fertilizer when used in combo with a PK fert like PK 13/14? Then one could use this for the full cycle like A & B, just you dosage PK low in veg, but higher from mid-to-end flower?
I've been at the homesite but wasn't able to see a full list of ingredients - are these listed at the bottle? Because I wonder if S is also contained and at what strength the micronutes are contained?
Hi Kassiopeija, I just like using CMX as it maintains the dark leaf color, due to the iron, iron increases nitrogen uptake availability, it has a little nitrogen and all other trace elements, it prevents chlorosis. The Dark green leaf color is often lost after the switch to 12/12 from veg, and ofcourse it also prevents cal/mag issues mid/late flower, it also keeps the leaves a deep dark color under intense flowering lights, but im sure there are many other products that will do the same. Iron Chelate for example is extreamly cheap and you dont need much. notice my plants in the photos have lost color and are not dark green, CMX would prevent this, but for this grow im not adding nutrients to prevent variables, im sure i could get a better yields with CMX and potassium silicate, or A and B nutrient supplementation, p/k heavy boosters etc etc, but will let this run through with just plain water this time.

Valagro Radifarm is a good product too, check that out to for veg and halve dosages for early flower, root growth is impressive.


Its a commercial product i use on many crops with great results.

IMG_20200307_164357.jpg

link - CMX is a cal-mag additive used for preventing nutrient deficiency symptoms. Unlike other brands, CMX also contains all trace elements (Fe, Cu, Mn, Zn, Mo, B). im not sure about sulfur? but there is a link on the bottle in the photo for more detailed info. Its basically a supliment not a stand alone formula even if you add P/K

When using CMX i usually add Acadian soluble seaweed powder

link- https://horticentre.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/Technical Sheets/Acadian - Technical sheet.pdf

Its great stuff too.

As im in the commercial horticulture industry, i have availability of a lot of commercial products that many hydro shops or home gardener shops wont stock and often the commercial products come in quantities that would be too much for the standard home grower. i.e products that come in quantities that do 1 hectare to 100 hectares per bottle. many over $600 a liter.

There are a lot of great products I would use if i was trying to grow the best cannabis but most of them are not available to the general public.

The Commercial Cannabis industry is so young it has a lot of catching up to do in research compared to the rest of the horticulture industry which has fine tuned production for its crops, by comparison the cannabis industry is fairly small in comparison and most of the knowledge from other sectors will be cross platform and applicable to the cannabis sector.

To answer your question : Could it be that it gives a full fertilizer when used in combo with a PK fert like PK 13/14?

The answer would be no, it would not work well as a stand alone nutrient with PK 13/14 in say hydroponics, in soil or potting mix, yes it would work as a supplement to general potting mix, although i would add kelp/seaweed with it. simply put it would depend on your growing media so its a open ended question.

P.s I have no ability to change the title of this thread, maybe you can email them and get it changed to something more fitting, im not worried what they call it, it was basically a veg method i thought would work and save power but the dam plants kept flowering on me and the result have been pretty decent, well at least as good as 12/12 with just the hlg 550, but ive had faster flowering, flower initiation seems faster , finishing seems faster especially on some varieties like seedsman big nugs fast and world of seeds Pakistan valley( yes the quality of those buds are great for that strain), they were definitely much faster than normal, at a cost to yield hard to say, but all plants with just 2 weeks veg from germination have yielded over 65grams of quality buds per plant, with some smaller under buds lower down. maybe 15-25 grams or so., and i haven't been trying very hard, a lot of that will be genetic determined and for the best part i haven't been using good genetics, seedsmans Gelat.OG was surprisingly extremely good for the price and I can recommend growing that, solid nugs, very dense ,no small buds, fewer bud nodes but high quality weed , great smell, great taste, very hardy.
 

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RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
Just to be absolutely clear, are you saying you are/did use light in the range of 660nm (Hyper Red) during the 12 hour lasting nightphase in flowering - and your plants didn't revegg? If so that would be absolutely mindblowing, I thought you did use 730nm exclusively... but 660nm is PAR... this is somewhat against the book, but let me tell you this: (and I hope I don't jump too early to conclusions now...)

I've build myself a new light for my vegtent 80x80cm out of old HIDS (which were laying around unused) just for jolly, it's a HPS + MH combined:
View attachment 4495318
here's an excerpt from a conversation with @Dr. Who which describes how that's been used:

"4 weeks ago I made an unexpected encounter - the vegtent with only a bunch of 4 week plants all regs went into flower. Under 18/6 lights. However, I have made a lighting experience and put both an MH & HPS dual under the hood.

Mourning: 6h MH
Midday: 6h MH + HPS
Evening: 6h HPS
30-50k lux at the canopy.

Could this be due to hormonell response initiated in stimulus of 12h of orange-shifted light from the HPS? or the lack of blue spectrum? but I knew folks that vegged entirely with HPS, and plants didnt go into flower right when they were mature...

Maybe its more complicated? Maybe from the shift... telling the plants oh only very short day with direct sunlight... I find it somehow hard to believe that the 660nm receptor is telling a plant "direct sunlight" when that wavelength actually is measured also quite diffuse in spread. Blue or UV would make much more sense, and there are so many of them.

However, the simulation also resulted in lesser luminosity in comparison to both HIDs full 18h on. Therefore, currently changed to
18h HPS + 14h MH
6h night

their back in veg now, but I wonder if I just could initiate flowering by reverting back to the old setting. less luminosity but 18h of light instead of 12... "

as you can see, my plants got 18h of uninterrupted light but paradoxically, the whole tent flowered (photo's) even at week 4 from seed.

I cannot explain this behaviour. But there was only 12h of white/blue light, and the rest was 6h HPS light + 6h darkness. A HPS will emit mostly yellow/red light:View attachment 4495319

so maybe the red light isn't "interpretated" as day by plants/Cannabis...??!?? Because that would also explain why your TORR method does what it does - your plants do flower fine.
So if this is true, it could perhaps mean that one can flower Cannabis under 16 or 18 or 20 or maybe even 24h of consecutive light.
I think you already arrived at this conclusion, isn't it:



I've previously thought that you'd use 730nm and that the increased temperature during the nightphase would be responsible for the vigorous growth of your plants (just like @bk78 keeps his temps constant high throughout the whole cycle...). But that alone doesn't explain why there's no revegg in your case, or why my plants did initiate flowering.

Now if we just look at various plant photo receptors:
View attachment 4495327
View attachment 4495328
View attachment 4495329

then you'll surely noticed most of them are well beyond both 730nm and 660nm. 550nm seems to be the start for secondairy plant metabolites.

Only Chlorophyl A + B, Pr + Pfr are working over 550nm. The official plant physiology teaches that plants using Pr to determine the day, and Pfr to determine night. But then your plants should revegg. Maybe the light emitted by 660nm/730nm monos isn't strong enough to do this, but on the other hand - you've even burnt your plants with it, as illustrated on this thread.

But if plants would use actually blue/white light to determine the day (and not Pr) then both our observed plant behaviour would make sense.
I feel we're on to something... which would require some testing... I wonder how much more 660nm lumen could be thrown at plants - in order to see if they revegg? Your monos don't gibe much out - but actually my HPS did - I measured 30k lumens (it's not max but these were small young plants in veg...). Plus a HPS will even throw alot of yellow light out, even very close to the best quantum efficiency that there is... so how in the world did these plants not consider this *day*?

Anyone else to chime in here? @Grow Lights Australia @Dr. Who @hybridway2 @Renfro @chex1111 @Sedan
@Kassiopeija you have the passion and drive to be a leader in this industry, make no mistake plants do flower under the Torr method and do it bloody well. Everyone needs to read the thread start to finish, If only a single particular strain flowers well under the Torr method it will be the strain and method that takes over the market, now i don't care what anyone thinks, I have enough money to retire today in my 40s, but there is something in this, Kassiopeija, work it out and you will make a mint.

Is this Bud growth normal over 6 and 12 days? (especially considering they got a extremely heavy leaf defoliate) and environmental condition not exactly ideal?

here are the pics all documented right here, as are dates

Below are Buds produced in just 28 days to harvest time,
FROM HERE to those buds in 28 days, doesn't allow for bud drying time obviously , first thread post
IMG_20191102_201342.jpg




Screenshot_2020-03-07 TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD(3).jpg
Why the Bent down branch? quote by me, read post : Tent one looked like this on the 30th of November, after 2 in the same pot of 4 were harvested, (after just 28 days, wow thats record breaking fast) I bent down the 2 remaining longer flowering plants to fill in the space where the 2 early flowering plants were harvested from, to maximize light usage. yes 2 harvested plants after just 28 days. you cant see the stump where the first 2 plants were harvested from in the photos.

post link https://www.rollitup.org/t/torr-power-saving-veg-method.999199/#post-15184307

Screenshot_2020-03-07 TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD.jpg
Screenshot_2020-03-07 TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD(1).jpg




tell me that bloom growth is normal in a 12 day period. its insane. im sorry.It just is.

Try it yourself with the exact same setup, and you could be a leader in the industry.
This is what they looked like after just 6 days from the first photo.Screenshot_2020-03-07 TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD(2).jpg

First photo Nov 30, 2019

Third photo Dec 6, 2019

Second Photo Dec 12, 2019
Post links are:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/torr-power-saving-veg-method.999199/page-2#post-15196243 3rd photo

2nd photo
https://www.rollitup.org/t/torr-power-saving-veg-method.999199/#post-15186963 bottom 2 photos are tent 1, the photos above are tent 2 in the post and are not relevant

https://www.rollitup.org/t/torr-power-saving-veg-method.999199/#post-15178754 1 st photo.

links could be confusing as i have added photos from 2 tents, but these photos are the progress from tent 1.all documented for times from the first photo , to the second photo 6 days after to the 3rd photo 12 days later.Screenshot_2020-03-07 TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD.jpgScreenshot_2020-03-07 TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD(1).jpgScreenshot_2020-03-07 TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD(2).jpg
last photo is just 6 days after the leaf defoliate.
 
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Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
CMX would prevent this, but for this grow im not adding nutrients to prevent variables, im sure i could get a better yields with CMX and potassium silicate, or A and B nutrient supplementation, p/k heavy boosters etc etc, but will let this run through with just plain water this time.
what are you testing, Sir?

btw yes youre right Ive been confused as the description on CMX falsely states "contains full set of micros"...

I have no ability to change the title of this thread,
Nevermind I thought you were able to do so

after the leaf defoliate
yes, when the leaf defol hits the right time sometimes the re-growth can be explosive. Because the plant has a full rootsystem intact which otherwise could support a full leaf canopy. If you take that away, the plant focuses on upper growth to re-install the balance ratio of roots-vs-leaves.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Here's an excerpt from an academic book on plant physiology which is shedding some light on the flowering process of Cannabis Indica. Unfortunately, it's in my mother language german, but I can translate the relevant parts and point out some keywords, so that you can understand the relevant graphics:

Flowering_induction.gif
(Dieter Hess: Allgemeine Botanik)

KTP = short daylength plant
LTP = long daylength plant
kritische Dunkelperiode - critical dark phase (night time)
blüht = flowers
Stunden = hours
Störlicht = irritating light
HR = light/bright red (art.) light
DR = dark red (art.) light

"Daylength and photoperiodic induction. Numerous plants require a specific day- or nighttimelength to induce flowering. We differentiate between shortdayplants (KTP) and longdayplants (LTP). (on p.269 Cannabis sativa is identified as shortdayplant - but I suspect only indica-related plants because sativas follow different rules, at least, that's my experience). The critical daytimelength lies between 10 and 14 hours, depending on species. Shortdayplants induce flowering when their daytimelength falls below the critical threshold. Longdayplants when it falls above that threshold. [...]

The processes during the the dark periode are the ones relevant for flower-induction. When one gives irritating light during the dark period, shortdayplants will not induce flowering (this is why the Gas LanternRoutine works in Cannabis) [...]

Place of perception are the leaves. The light absorption for this is mostly done in blue/UVA-receptors (--> p.277) and phytochrome, like has been identified in various studies involving lighting experiences. Because one can make the same pendulumplay involving lightred/darkred, like we've seen in the sprouting of lettuce (--> p. 131). Just that the active form of phytochrome(brightred) doesn't support the flowering induction but instead, hinder it (graphic 4.3.7). From the various phytochromes the most important is phytochrome B."


In this graphic the relevant flowering-inducing genes and their pathway expression is show:
Blühinduktions-Gene.gif
what I find remarkable is that the photoperiodic daytimelength is clearly shown as being determined by bluelight or UVA (Photoperiode: Blau oder UV-A)

@Dr. Who this is some evidence which confirms my theory and it would also explain why my photoperiodic plants did flower under 18/6 of constant light: only 12h of these 18h were filled with blue/UV - the rest was 6h HPS light + 6h dark.

Now if this theory is true, then maybe I can even bring Cannabis to flower under 24h over consecutive hard HID light:
24h HPS + 12h MH:
12h day: HPS + MH (was 50k lux at canopy in my setup)
12h night: HPS (was 30k lux at my canopy...)
--> increase of 3/5th in possibly PAR; ie. lowering the ppfd-requirements by 3/5th if one hits the Daily Light Integral with the combination of day+night light.

Especially on LED boards that operate blue diodes & red diodes on separate channels, this could decrease the amount of necessary diodes by MUCH; or: increase the area to light out by the same percentage (ie: board could be placed higher).

I find this especially important because we're talking here about photoperiodic plants, where we traditionally reduce the amount of light that can be
given from 18/6 to 12/12 - a decrease of 50%. To compensate, we increase luminosity. This means:
- hardware potential in veg is not fully utilized
- locale leaf temperature rises through increased lux
- unnatural state: luminosity goes up at the beginning of flower when in nature it actually gradually sinks. shortdayplants usually get the highest lux in mid-to-late veg phase.
- late in flower lots of plants loose fanleaves which reduces the surface area with which to do photosynthesis. Plants do have less potential then to fabricate & store carbohydrates.
- We cannot increase lux endlessly to compensate the lack of photo-potential because of the dangers of photo-destruction after crossing the light saturation point.

24h of light could mean lesser evolved rootsystem. However, in generative mode plants gradually form less and less roots - as they put all thier power into the buildup of flowers. So this disadvantage is mitigated a bit.

The book then ventures on to explain the underlying genes which are responsible for flowering expression (as seen in the illustration above) - the gene CO (CONSTANS) seems to be critical for this. This knowledge is drawn from the plant thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana) - which is a rolemodel-plant in genetics and which is very close to Cannabis - as both are rosids (read more about this in the wiki link given).
According to the text it is the gene CONSTANS that induces flowering and which is expressed over a pathway initiated by "Cryptochrom 2 [CRY2]" stimulated by blue/UVA light. The book tells this in somewhat vague terms, so I went to wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptochrome
this sentence is particularily interesting:
"A double loss-of-function mutation in Arabidopsis thaliana Early Flowering 3 (elf3) and Cry2 genes delays flowering under continuous light and was shown to accelerate it during long and short days, which suggests that Arabidopsis CRY2 may play a role in accelerating flowering time during continuous light.[15]" [bolding by me]

and:
"Despite much research on the topic, cryptochrome photoreception and phototransduction in Drosophila and Arabidopsis thaliana is still poorly understood."
--> this could explain why the industry doesn't make use of this Doc - maybe we're in unchartered territory here :O

but: (from the reference [15] study:)
https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article/62/8/2731/476001
"Abstract: [...] The results suggest that CRY2 may play more essential roles in the acceleration of flowering under LL than LDs or SDs." [!]
LL = continous light (24/0),
LD = longday (18/6),
SD = shortday (10/14)

I find this sentence absolutely remarkably! If this is true then perhaps an LED board could simply induce flowering by giving light off which stimulates the responsible cryptochromes, and not with a changed/increased dark phase.
If it is further true that this way flowering is not also induced - but also ACCELERATED - then, the combination of both advantages ("more potential light" + accelerated flowering] could mean a drastic paradigm change in the way indoor crops are lighted out.

RangiSTaxi already pointed out a significant decrease in flowering time, from commonly 60-80 days down to ~35. I'm estimating an increase in area lighting out by up to 50%. Combine both, harvest could be increased considerably (with more energy + more area used)

So if this all is true, an LED manufacturer who incorporates this knowledge would be able to beat even the best-quality reference boards in a direct comparison by perhaps a minimum of 150% more dry harvest [@Grow Lights Australia, @ANC]

Disclaimer: The book I draw these info's from is not the newest, so to speak. However, the infos available has all been gathered by empirical methods - they are valid.

Have a nice sunday my friends :D

@Kassiopeija you have the passion and drive to be a leader in this industry [...] Kassiopeija, work it out and you will make a mint.
LMAO actually I'm a just a poor homegrower... I fought a severe depression for almost a decade - in this time, only reading was possible. My preferred topics: Natural sciences: biology, physics, chemistry (in that order). So my purse is empty - but my head full XD and maybe if I would live in a country like the US where the state offers alot of potential to live "the American dream" I could maybe fill that purse, but here in rusty Germany? don't think so... :/
 
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Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
on a sidenote, if we examine the systematic info as given in pic 4.3.7 then it appears that we can give a shortday plant light during the nightphase - but we would have to end this phase always with darkred light to keep the plant inside the flowering mechanism.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
btw it's well known that C3 plants can reach lightlevels which do damage the plant, unlike C4 which have a much higher tolerance. I donno but some time in flower cannabis seems to profit from increased lightlevels. just think about the folks who use 730nms for sleep initiation - once they have it 15mins at the end of the daytime, they'll up lightimes by +1,5hours - why? They could instead leave it at 12/12 and gain mpre Pfr hormone buildup. But they go for more light instead. The TORR method makes even more light accessably.

@RangiSTaxi I think I follow you torring in about 4-6 weeks. I've just thought how I could create that in my 1.2mx1.2m tent and I got already all parts here:
4*Cree 3500k without blend @75w near each corner - at 18/6 and 12/12 - main photosynthesis light
1*250w HPS center vertical - at 24/0 or 20/4 - add. bloom photosynthesis light + IR + FR
4*730nm 5w monos at the corners - FR 12/12 or 24/0
8*660nm 5w monos arranged in a mediumbig quadrat shape - HR 24/0
4*UVA 405 5w mono in every corner - UVA 16/8 and 10/14
4*UVB 365 5w mono in every side - UVB 16/8 and 10/14

UVC would also be nice for accelerated plant destruction in perhaps a single 30mins to 1h outburst, which would also sterilize the environment, but I don't have more places at the racks available.

This is 570w of light on 1.44m2 it should do.
 
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RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
yes we have gone from

IMG_20200306_182022.jpg

to this in 2-3 days


IMG_20200309_220007(1).jpg
2-3 days from above pic to bottom picture. in my book that is impressive. And I can Prove it. in fact ill add a placard to every photo to prove times and dates all documented here, and no defoliation this time @Kassiopeija :)
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
@Kassiopeija
@RangiSTaxi

I am recovering from a surgery and will return shortly.

Kass, interesting things you gave, to be sure. I'll retort later.

Rangi, Nice pics, don't get me wrong here,,,,,you can put a placard in front of any plants.....NOT THAT YOUR CHEATING but,,,, Not exactly accepted verification either.

STILL, I find it interesting. How long in bloom total?
What are your feeds? Exactly please...
I see a tad of high N there. I tickle N in early bloom to get a faster and more positive flower set.... Again, Not that it's what your doing But, complete feeding info will also tell me a lot about what your plants are doing at this point.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who
I hope the surgery went well and you're already on the way of recovery, just take it easy

Not exactly accepted verification either.
Indeed.
What we would need is a comparative simultanous grow in 2 completely equal climate controlled chambers, with variables reduced to the minimum possible (clones, substrate, feeding schedules, temps, rH, ppfd, DLI, total energy consumption etc) with the only difference being the light: conventional vs. TORR.
But as of now, I'm not even convinced what increment exactly IS the TORR-method? Is the 730nm during the day necessary? Or during the night? Maybe only a 15min FR each hour during the night would also do? How much 660nm can be given during the night?
--> being able to answer these questions could make a difference in energy consumption or hardware investments and thereby greatly influence the possibility of a viable economic application - IF increased harvest is to be found...

What we need to have is the formulation of a theory which could generally explain all observations which have hitherto been made. However, I do lack alot of knowledge when it comes to C3 plant flowering induction - most of what I know stems from grower-forums - and just the glimpse into 2 20 year old books by a prof in plantscience gives me hints that the natural reality is somewhat much more complex than naive broscience.

Especially the Pr-to-Pfr conversion mechanism is an enigma to me - I'm reading different informations about that... If light that falls on a leaf swiftly hinders the flowering process by destruction/reconversion of Pfr to Pr then why it's not happening with 660nm mono light or light emitted from a 150w HPS? (btw I've ordered a 250w HPS to test this by even more luminosity - my other 250w HID is a SHPS which has increased blue/white spectrum output so I shouldn't use it for this).
Is the 730nm constant nighttime light potentially suppressing this? Or providing more buildup than re-conversion?

I'd like to backcheck on some of the initial studies done on the Pr-->Pfr mechanism - because I can vaguely remember that the conclusion of some of these studies were that the first & last PAR a plant gets to see is the HR from dusk or dawn. With the 730nm band following shortly thereafter, thus the writer of hese texts went on to conclude that therefore plants use 660nm vs 730nm to differentiate between day or night.
However, the initial assumption is WRONG! The very first & last light a plant gets to see is actually the emmision spectrum of water vapour (blue) - because the atmosphere above does have a better angle towards the rays of light steming from a sun that's already sunken below the horizon. That basically means that light which would actually not reach the ground is refractionated multiple times (at least, twice) - first upon entry in the earths atmosphere, and later, a second time when being absorbed by water-molecules and re-emitted homogenously in all directions - also, towards earth.

Half year ago I saw some photographical diagrams (possibly recorded by a pyranometer?) which did proof this without any doubt. I can't find them anymore... but it's actually easy for anyone to observe this with own eyes, just stay up early before dawn and when there's no moon in the sky - you'll see the first brighting up that happens each day is that the blackness of the nightsky is changed to deep blue with some of the stars fading - and only afterwards can the red glow at the horizon being observed.

And because plants do have so many different photoreceptor in the 400-550nm (also: UVA) spectrum sitting - with all these photons carrying a higher energy-charge than what's required for the photosynthetic reactioncenter, meaning always a portion of said energy is being left over and converted to heat - that leaves even more possibilites open for a plant to better "sense" this photonic influx, than the 550-700nm bandwith.
 

RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
@Kassiopeija
@RangiSTaxi

I am recovering from a surgery and will return shortly.

Kass, interesting things you gave, to be sure. I'll retort later.

Rangi, Nice pics, don't get me wrong here,,,,,you can put a placard in front of any plants.....NOT THAT YOUR CHEATING but,,,, Not exactly accepted verification either.

STILL, I find it interesting. How long in bloom total?
What are your feeds? Exactly please...
I see a tad of high N there. I tickle N in early bloom to get a faster and more positive flower set.... Again, Not that it's what your doing But, complete feeding info will also tell me a lot about what your plants are doing at this point.
Wishing you a Speedy recovery. Just basic potting mix , store brought, all purpose Potting mix nothing fancy and basic tap water that is it.

Update
IMG_20200312_140455.jpg
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who
I hope the surgery went well and you're already on the way of recovery, just take it easy


Indeed.
What we would need is a comparative simultanous grow in 2 completely equal climate controlled chambers, with variables reduced to the minimum possible (clones, substrate, feeding schedules, temps, rH, ppfd, DLI, total energy consumption etc) with the only difference being the light: conventional vs. TORR.
But as of now, I'm not even convinced what increment exactly IS the TORR-method? Is the 730nm during the day necessary? Or during the night? Maybe only a 15min FR each hour during the night would also do? How much 660nm can be given during the night?
--> being able to answer these questions could make a difference in energy consumption or hardware investments and thereby greatly influence the possibility of a viable economic application - IF increased harvest is to be found...

What we need to have is the formulation of a theory which could generally explain all observations which have hitherto been made. However, I do lack alot of knowledge when it comes to C3 plant flowering induction - most of what I know stems from grower-forums - and just the glimpse into 2 20 year old books by a prof in plantscience gives me hints that the natural reality is somewhat much more complex than naive broscience.

Especially the Pr-to-Pfr conversion mechanism is an enigma to me - I'm reading different informations about that... If light that falls on a leaf swiftly hinders the flowering process by destruction/reconversion of Pfr to Pr then why it's not happening with 660nm mono light or light emitted from a 150w HPS? (btw I've ordered a 250w HPS to test this by even more luminosity - my other 250w HID is a SHPS which has increased blue/white spectrum output so I shouldn't use it for this).
Is the 730nm constant nighttime light potentially suppressing this? Or providing more buildup than re-conversion?

I'd like to backcheck on some of the initial studies done on the Pr-->Pfr mechanism - because I can vaguely remember that the conclusion of some of these studies were that the first & last PAR a plant gets to see is the HR from dusk or dawn. With the 730nm band following shortly thereafter, thus the writer of hese texts went on to conclude that therefore plants use 660nm vs 730nm to differentiate between day or night.
However, the initial assumption is WRONG! The very first & last light a plant gets to see is actually the emmision spectrum of water vapour (blue) - because the atmosphere above does have a better angle towards the rays of light steming from a sun that's already sunken below the horizon. That basically means that light which would actually not reach the ground is refractionated multiple times (at least, twice) - first upon entry in the earths atmosphere, and later, a second time when being absorbed by water-molecules and re-emitted homogenously in all directions - also, towards earth.

Half year ago I saw some photographical diagrams (possibly recorded by a pyranometer?) which did proof this without any doubt. I can't find them anymore... but it's actually easy for anyone to observe this with own eyes, just stay up early before dawn and when there's no moon in the sky - you'll see the first brighting up that happens each day is that the blackness of the nightsky is changed to deep blue with some of the stars fading - and only afterwards can the red glow at the horizon being observed.

And because plants do have so many different photoreceptor in the 400-550nm (also: UVA) spectrum sitting - with all these photons carrying a higher energy-charge than what's required for the photosynthetic reactioncenter, meaning always a portion of said energy is being left over and converted to heat - that leaves even more possibilites open for a plant to better "sense" this photonic influx, than the 550-700nm bandwith.

Oh gosh. You got me all interested in this but, I'm not quite ready to sit in a chair for extended periods yet.

Everything went well, and I'll be back soon.... Therapy starts today. Odd thing is? Everything else is simply shut down here..... Well see how this goes as the Dr says this therapy is happening...

Peace out everybody
 
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