Tissue Culture/Micro Propagation Grow from Scratch

canndo

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I wonder if I am just talking to myself here but I said I would continue this journal and so I will. My contam rate has jumped but every case except one is Trichoderma so I know the cause and I know I can control it if I can just hang on until my other project is complete. I am getting some vitrification on some of the older control jars (the ones that I just take from an old jar and replant every time I take cuttings - I need to see how a permanent cutting will fair over the course of years) I still believe the vitrificaton is from humidity and the studies on other in vitro cultures tend to support my belief. vitrification occurs most frequently when a leaf touches the medium or if the plant grows too slowly for any period of time, at least that is how I notice it. I know I can get callus even from the vitrified leaf which is how I perfected my callus protocol using Dicamba. Still, although I have had some callus growing for some time, they won't shoot on any of the iterations of media I have tried. I recently found a study that claimed a 1.2 percent organogenisis rate from callus in Cannabis S. So there go my plans for artificial seeds using selected phenos as source. I had originally presumed that encapsulation must surely be too hard to do in one's home but encountered some descriptions of the technique that had me think otherwise. The methods are very similar to some used by molecular gastronomy chefs, so if I could produce an embryo from callus, then I could produce a seed that resulted in the pheno I selected ahead of time AND it would make it possible for anyone to become a seed vendor even from a very confined space. But I am thinking that if one has a 1.2 percent success with shooting, either my embryogenisis rate would be low or the resulting embryo wouldn't work very well.

DSCF1123.jpgDSCF1124.jpgDSCF1122.jpg So these are three pictures of a plantlet that is about 2 months old. Notice the shoot growth. What I am particularly pleased with is the girth of the stem itself. Except for the last batch, I never use stems that are even close to the size this one is. What it seems to indicate is that my ratios work for longer term preservation. I wish there were more of them though, I would like to see an average of 5 shoots.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
DSCF1127.jpgDSCF1125.jpgDSCF1126.jpgSo three have popped in the medium. Let's see how this one works. The others are ok, some are recovering from my transplant delay far slower than I had hoped but the point is still the same, you get more cuttings than you will need in short order. I am wondering if it would be better to leave these in the dark rather than place them with all the other plantlets which get 16 hours of light a day.
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
Your beans are looking beautiful. I'm curious to know what will happen to their roots, exposed to light.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Now, were are we today?

I was more than a little overzealous with the large stem transfer and I killed most of them. That is really too bad because the ones that aren't dead are growing very quickly - I don't think I included a pic of the good ones. I probably shouldn't have done that last alcohol wash, and maybe I shouldn't have done all of the bleach washes. I'll get more for my next run and we will try that one again.

The seeds. I tried this experiment once before and it was a failure. the seeds grew to just around the same situation they are at now. That time I used NAA and 2IP, 30 grms of sucrose and 2 grms of MS. They just quit. The biggest thing about seeds is that they harbor all sorts of spores. I was lucky to get even a few of the seeds clean enough last time. This time I did a fairly good clean and my medium is devoid of anything but sucrose (16 grms) and MS (1 grm). No hormones, and even no biocide (cause I forgot to put it in). Because I didn't put the biocide in, I figured I'd be even more thorough with the wash. I really don't know how much a seed will take before I destroy it but that is an experiment I will do when I have more seeds.

I am including pictures of the failures and the cuttings I am most happy with.

If things continue to go well I project that we will be looking to rooting in two weeks. So what does that mean exactly? Well we have been at this for about a month. Within that month I have taken 12 cuttings from a branch that would have yielded perhaps 2 traditional clones. Half of them died. From the 6 remaining I got 13 I believe (I don't have my notes handy). So in the one sense I got 13 clones from two (if you consider traditional methods only) - not bad for a month. In another I got 2 to 1.

If we consider that I got about 2 cuttings per plant in 3 weeks this pass then I would have 26 in three weeks. I would have 52 in another 3 weeks and 104 in another 3 weeks. That is 104 clones in 3 months without really trying. Of course that number doesn't count rooting time and hardening off but you can see how quickly this sort of cloning could pay off for a larger grower.

Included in the pictures is one of a tub. This is only for use when you are quite sure that you won't be contaminating anything. While I was doing some transfer work I discovered a bacterial contamination in one of the jars - everything I transfered from that jar failed. The biocide seems to work very well but loses its effectiveness in a matter of weeks and it doesn't seem to work against large amounts of infection, only the stray spore or two. I have tried using it as a wash on heavily contaminated plants and that does work - but this stuff is very very expensive, costing over a dollar a milliliter. If someone had a major reason to preserve his plantlet I think he might be able to use this stuff to save even the nastiest infection.


Now, the seed experiments again. My hope and plan is to get to a place where I can take the resulting plant, having been completely in a sterile environment from the beginning and use that as a "cutting". This will give me a huge advantage over traditional methods. Consider that I would only have to wait about 15 to 20 days in order to take the first cutting for a clone. Three weeks later I have two, then 4, then 8 then 16. 16 clones in 3 months (well a bit more if you count the seedling phase). From seed. I don't think that can be done using traditional methods. Now this is where the sexing in vitro comes into play. I can't think of a reason that I can't flower a rootless in vitro plant. If I can, then I could have legions of new, sexed plantlets ready for planting. If I need to root the plantlet before sexing, so be it, it will take a few extra weeks but I can still grow in tandem or parallel to the sexing without much waste of space, resources or light.


DSCF1128.jpg Notice that in this transplant I spared the two top shoots, they just weren't big enough. Were I to do this one again in a few weeks I would slice on the bias so that one shoot would still have a portion of the stem. From this I would have the top, one small shoot and another larger shoot. I did trim all of the bottom leaves so they won't touch the medium.


DSCF1131.jpgWhenever possible I like to place all the shoots I cut from the base plantlet in the same jar just so I can see how much biomass I am actually generating. This was all from a single plantlet. I could have taken more from any of these plantlets but more mass is better so I opted to try for the nicest fatest plants for rooting rather than trying to get as many cuttings as I could have. DSCF1130.jpgDSCF1133.jpgDSCF1132.jpg
DSCF1137.jpgThis is a tub picture. The tubs have good points, they are easy to work with, they offer large amounts of space for your cuttings to grow, they capture a lot of air so if what I suspect is true, they should go longer without vitrification. The down side is that if there is any contamination, I lose everything in the tub.
DSCF1134.jpgThis is just a nice, single shoot. I am anxious to see how quickly this one exhibits auxiliary shoots.
DSCF1135.jpgLook at the black top of this plantlet, this doesn't look like bleach damage. It is too bad I killed it, it is an apical "bud" and I think it would have not only worked great to give me a number of new shoots but it would have looked nice. Note the size of the stem is much larger than anything I have used or shown pictures of before. I do get this size stem after a month or so of in vitro growth.

DSCF1136.jpg And you can see at the base the fluffy stuff. I have a suspicion that the fluffy stuff could be a particular sort of mushroom - can't be sure though, I'll let it grow a few days and see if it sporulates.


So I've rambled on. The price you will pay for letting me do this while buzzed.

I've cleared the space for the flowering phase. I will put the vessels in a dark blue plastic bin with a growlux lamp in the top. I will not set it up for any sort of exotic air exchange and I will not do anything about temperature. I will set it up for 11.5 hrs light and give it three weeks, although I don't know what I will be able to see on such a miniature scale. As always, input is welcome.
 

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canndo

Well-Known Member
Ok, so I have a question for the tiny group that is following this. If you could perform these things with a minimum of gear, with a minimum of fuss and such and it didn't cost too much money, what would you all do with it? Or does it just seem like an interesting but not very practical idea?
 

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
Ok, so I have a question for the tiny group that is following this. If you could perform these things with a minimum of gear, with a minimum of fuss and such and it didn't cost too much money, what would you all do with it? Or does it just seem like an interesting but not very practical idea?
Keeping a strain library would be my goal with it for sure. I like to have a lot of flavors and highs to choose from. As long as I kept the "mothers" in shoot growth without roots, they wouldn't go against my plant count as I understand the law.

It would also (in theory) allow me to recover the original genetics of my strains and filter out any possible infections they may carry.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I understand the law to be the same as well. If this proceedure gets popular (I hope so but... it seems that it will be hard to convince others that they can do it), then the law may change. Wolverine, I don't think we will know if the strains hold true for long periods of time - until I get a plant growing from my oldest cuttings. I believe my oldest is just over a year. Thanks for your reply. I am wondering why this is not a more popular thread though - maybe it is just me and my utter fascination with this approach and the possibilites of it. It seems that many don't see the advantage, and many have been convinced that you need a huge lab or ultra sterile conditions or have to work with dangerous chemicals.

I do worry that these protocols are about as far away from "organic" as one can get. I don't know if it matters from most points of view but some will shy away from terms like Giberillic acid and such, even though all of the artificial components will be long long gone when the plant is even just a little creature.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
results? you want results? we don't need results, we can dwell in the theoretical and just dream for years and years here. Micropropagation was all the buzz when Planttc came out with their kit. It consists of his basic mixture for establishment and multiplication and another for roots. It is a good start for someone who has nothing and as I have found, the parts, the vessels and caps and trays are difficult to come by, it would be even harder for someone to aquire all of the components necessary to get something like this off of the ground. So everyone was talking about it back then, some people even promised to start journals - I've researched this in many forums. But then no one ever suceeded or if they did they didn't want to share what they managed to accomplish and people quit talking about it.

I had a stroke of good luck today, someone gave me a bag of seeds, it looks like hundreds, so I can begin to parallel my seed starting experiment with everything else. He said there were some really good strains in there but, well, they will just have to go in the interest of the larger endeavor.
 

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
results? you want results? we don't need results, we can dwell in the theoretical and just dream for years and years here. Micropropagation was all the buzz when Planttc came out with their kit. It consists of his basic mixture for establishment and multiplication and another for roots. It is a good start for someone who has nothing and as I have found, the parts, the vessels and caps and trays are difficult to come by, it would be even harder for someone to aquire all of the components necessary to get something like this off of the ground. So everyone was talking about it back then, some people even promised to start journals - I've researched this in many forums. But then no one ever suceeded or if they did they didn't want to share what they managed to accomplish and people quit talking about it.

I had a stroke of good luck today, someone gave me a bag of seeds, it looks like hundreds, so I can begin to parallel my seed starting experiment with everything else. He said there were some really good strains in there but, well, they will just have to go in the interest of the larger endeavor.
LOL, it would be nice but I'd certainly understand if you didn't finish the journal. It's a ton of work documenting everything, and I seem to be the only one really watching this thread. Major props to you if you see this through, I for one would be very appreciative. I know what you mean about nobody ever showing this process beginning to end, I've looked everywhere and found very little. I've been intrigued by the process for years, I'm thrilled someone is finally posting it on here. Again, thank you.

That's awesome about the seeds, more for testing!
RIU won't let me rep you again yet, but it's the thought that counts right?
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Wolverine, one of the reasons I have gotten as far as I have is because I didn't give up and, as I said, I can do several things at once - cheap, not much space used and not really a lot of work. In fact, the most amount of work is getting the damn sticky shit labels off of the jars. I came across a really great deal with the jars. A little 99 cent store down the street sold out of date children's peas for 20 cents a jar. If you look at the first set of photos you will see that I feed my cuttings to my worms. I also feed them babyfood. I have the patience and the perseverance and I expect that sooner or later others will begin to follow along. I appreciate anyone watching anyway and I certainly enjoy any input. I studied this for about a year before I started. I knew that there must be a key to it all in the establishment protocol and I did nothing but kill plantlets for a long long time looking for the right ratios. I was thrilled when I got plants to live a week or two and that was when I got enough confidence to start pushing ahead. It was the GA3 that really set things apart. The short and long of it is that I will finish the journal and I will have sucess in doing this. If others want to try themselves I will be more than willing to help and I intend to make the mixtures available, and possibly other components that are hard to find or hard to buy unless you get a truckload of them. Thanks for the multiple reps btw.

Here is something else. I was wondering if anyone might be interested so I started a thread in the Gardening section. (this is a really nice forum btw). I claimed I had just bought a topsey turvey tomato system but I couldn't seem to find any upside down tomato seeds. I did it as a joke but also to see if anyone would check my grow journal. Surely someone would think I was very stupid for looking for upside down tomato seeds and check to see what I could possibly be describing in my journal. I figure that anyone who saw this thread would understand that I must be somewhat knowledgeable and know it was a joke. ah, well, just buzzing along again, procrastinating cleaning the room this evening.
 

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
Best of luck on everything, I'm sure it will work out for you. I'll have to check out a few places for the cheap jars, I'm always looking (bigger jars generally) but hadn't thought of that. The more exchange on here the better, people are bound to click if they keep seeing it at the top. I find this shit fascinating, whether I actually use it or not doesn't even matter. Good to know about the GA3 also.

As to your strategy, it's like using a mepps lure for brook trout.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Today. My room heater quit and as it turns out has been off for a few days. The weather around here has been going from highs of 75 to lows of 40 so two things are happening. Firstly, the difference in temp is causing condensate to form and bringing large amounts of spores down from the rim of the jar to the medium. This wouldn't be so bad if my room wasn't so conaminated. These are my babies and I just hate to lose any - but, as i have said, I only need one to survive. So far though, all of the lemon skunk cuttings are doing ok to great. The other thing I did wrong was fail to inspect the jars before I opened them up for transfers. You do NOT want to open a contaminated jar in the presence of other uncontaminated and opened jars. I lost several to that as well. These losses are spores that come in contact with the plant itself and grow there - the medium is still fresh enough to keep the bad things from growing in there. I had hoped this would all go perfectly and I could demonstrate a nice simple start to finish little trial. Then again, I think it may be better to show what can happen and how one copes with those eventualities. We are still on for about 2 weeks to root.

Now, the seeds. DAMN. there is little if any change from the last time I posted. The ones that germinated are only a bit larger - I would have expected more. None of the others have popped. Could be I killed them - owing to the fact that not a single one is contaminated and seeds are notorious for carrying nasties on their shells. It could be light, it could be that the room is too cold, and it could be that you just can't geminate marijuana seeds in sugar, ms and gelzan. Something appears to inhibit further growth after we first see the root. I am wondering if it is necessary to germ in media. I am after the seedling from above the first leaves. I know that I can germ in rock wool and STG so I am thinking I may simply put some of each in the bottom of the culture tubes, add a few ppm of some general fertalizer and water, sterilize that and plant the seeds in the middle. That would take care of the light issue and maybe give them a break. I am not calling this one a failure yet but...
DSCF1140.JPGDSCF1139.JPGDSCF1141.JPGDSCF1138.JPGDSCF1144.JPGDSCF1146.JPGDSCF1143.JPGDSCF1142.JPGDSCF1145.JPG
 

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
Today. My room heater quit and as it turns out has been off for a few days. The weather around here has been going from highs of 75 to lows of 40 so two things are happening. Firstly, the difference in temp is causing condensate to form and bringing large amounts of spores down from the rim of the jar to the medium. This wouldn't be so bad if my room wasn't so conaminated. These are my babies and I just hate to lose any - but, as i have said, I only need one to survive. So far though, all of the lemon skunk cuttings are doing ok to great. The other thing I did wrong was fail to inspect the jars before I opened them up for transfers. You do NOT want to open a contaminated jar in the presence of other uncontaminated and opened jars. I lost several to that as well. These losses are spores that come in contact with the plant itself and grow there - the medium is still fresh enough to keep the bad things from growing in there. I had hoped this would all go perfectly and I could demonstrate a nice simple start to finish little trial. Then again, I think it may be better to show what can happen and how one copes with those eventualities. We are still on for about 2 weeks to root.

Now, the seeds. DAMN. there is little if any change from the last time I posted. The ones that germinated are only a bit larger - I would have expected more. None of the others have popped. Could be I killed them - owing to the fact that not a single one is contaminated and seeds are notorious for carrying nasties on their shells. It could be light, it could be that the room is too cold, and it could be that you just can't geminate marijuana seeds in sugar, ms and gelzan. Something appears to inhibit further growth after we first see the root. I am wondering if it is necessary to germ in media. I am after the seedling from above the first leaves. I know that I can germ in rock wool and STG so I am thinking I may simply put some of each in the bottom of the culture tubes, add a few ppm of some general fertalizer and water, sterilize that and plant the seeds in the middle. That would take care of the light issue and maybe give them a break. I am not calling this one a failure yet but...
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Regarding the seeds, I would think it's the lack of oxygen present in the medium, but I don't know all of its properties.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I don't know how much oxygen is in the stuff, I don't do anything to agitate it and it is cooked 250 degrees for 25 minutes - probably very little O2 in it. More ideas or insights are more than welcome.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I was given a branch of Blue Dream yesterday. I'll put them into culture this weekend and do another round of seeds. If this round doesn't work I think I'm going to rock wool. I don't know if STG can stand the temperature.
 

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
I was given a branch of Blue Dream yesterday. I'll put them into culture this weekend and do another round of seeds. If this round doesn't work I think I'm going to rock wool. I don't know if STG can stand the temperature.
Lucky you, that's another strain I've had no luck in procuring.
 
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