The plot to marginalize Bernie Sanders: The shared agenda that links Fox News and Hillary Clinton su

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
interesting bedfellows..i was wondering how they were going to do this..has anyone noticed that pubsters wishing to dump the GOP call themselves 'independents' now?:lol:

Both parties are owned by plutocrats. Sanders' challenge threatens them both, and their responses are oddly similar

Everyone is scrambling to make sense of the Bernie Sanders phenomenon. According to recent polls, the senator from Vermont is second only to Hillary Clinton among likely Democratic voters. Part of the confusion, it seems, has to do with Sanders’ so-called “socialism.” How, the pundits ask, can a self-described “socialist” gain any traction in American politics today?

I expect conservatives to pound this question down the throats of their audiences, but Democrats have latched onto this trope as well. Sen. Claire McCaskill, for instance, blithely suggested that Americans will reject Sanders once they discover his socialist roots: “This is somebody who can carry the torch of middle class opportunity without alienating a wide swath of voters by being, frankly, a socialist,” McCaskill said in defense of Hillary Clinton.

This is becoming tedious. First, Bernie Sanders isn’t a socialist – at least not in the conventional sense of that term. It’s true that he occasionally accepts the label, but he does so in a very nuanced way – which, in my view, only adds to the confusion. But that’s another problem altogether. The point is that there are no socialist candidates running for president. However elastic the term has become, “socialist” does not mean progressive or liberal Democrat. Socialism, at minimum, requires the abolition of private property and government ownership of the means of production.

Nothing in Bernie Sanders’ platform qualifies as socialist, if that term has any relation at all to its historical meaning. Obsessing over Sanders’ socialist leanings is an exercise in distraction. The choice today, the only choice we really have, is between different species of capitalism. Republicans are absolutists; they fetishize the free market. People like Ted Cruz and Bobby Jindal want no regulation, no safety nets, and no constraints on private power. They represent the true believers, the ones who despise government and make a divinity of the market. Sanders rejects this brand of capitalist theology, but that doesn’t make him a socialist.

Take a look at Sanders’ actual platform. He’s not calling for the elimination of private ownership of productive forces. His agenda fits neatly under a capitalist paradigm – as it must. Yes, he wants to regulate commercial activities. Yes, he wants to break up too-big-to-fail banks. Yes, he supports unions. And yes, he believes healthcare and education are human rights. He is, however, a capitalist. What he – and many other Americans – reject is corporate welfare and monopoly capitalism and the complete financialization of the American economy. Again, that doesn’t make him a socialist. Even the conservative columnist George Will has acknowledged that Sanders’ vision is just a diluted version of the “social democracy” practiced in much of Europe.
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/14/the...inks_fox_news_and_hillary_clinton_surrogates/
 
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interesting bedfellows..i was wondering how they were going to do this..has anyone noticed that pubsters wishing to dump the GOP call themselves 'independents'.

Both parties are owned by plutocrats. Sanders' challenge threatens them both, and their responses are oddly similar

Everyone is scrambling to make sense of the Bernie Sanders phenomenon. According to recent polls, the senator from Vermont is second only to Hillary Clinton among likely Democratic voters. Part of the confusion, it seems, has to do with Sanders’ so-called “socialism.” How, the pundits ask, can a self-described “socialist” gain any traction in American politics today?

I expect conservatives to pound this question down the throats of their audiences, but Democrats have latched onto this trope as well. Sen. Claire McCaskill, for instance, blithely suggested that Americans will reject Sanders once they discover his socialist roots: “This is somebody who can carry the torch of middle class opportunity without alienating a wide swath of voters by being, frankly, a socialist,” McCaskill said in defense of Hillary Clinton.

This is becoming tedious. First, Bernie Sanders isn’t a socialist – at least not in the conventional sense of that term. It’s true that he occasionally accepts the label, but he does so in a very nuanced way – which, in my view, only adds to the confusion. But that’s another problem altogether. The point is that there are no socialist candidates running for president. However elastic the term has become, “socialist” does not mean progressive or liberal Democrat. Socialism, at minimum, requires the abolition of private property and government ownership of the means of production.

Nothing in Bernie Sanders’ platform qualifies as socialist, if that term has any relation at all to its historical meaning. Obsessing over Sanders’ socialist leanings is an exercise in distraction. The choice today, the only choice we really have, is between different species of capitalism. Republicans are absolutists; they fetishize the free market. People like Ted Cruz and Bobby Jindal want no regulation, no safety nets, and no constraints on private power. They represent the true believers, the ones who despise government and make a divinity of the market. Sanders rejects this brand of capitalist theology, but that doesn’t make him a socialist.

Take a look at Sanders’ actual platform. He’s not calling for the elimination of private ownership of productive forces. His agenda fits neatly under a capitalist paradigm – as it must. Yes, he wants to regulate commercial activities. Yes, he wants to break up too-big-to-fail banks. Yes, he supports unions. And yes, he believes healthcare and education are human rights. He is, however, a capitalist. What he – and many other Americans – reject is corporate welfare and monopoly capitalism and the complete financialization of the American economy. Again, that doesn’t make him a socialist. Even the conservative columnist George Will has acknowledged that Sanders’ vision is just a diluted version of the “social democracy” practiced in much of Europe.
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/14/the...inks_fox_news_and_hillary_clinton_surrogates/
I spent my time in college in science labs so I'm not claiming any expertise here. My impression of "socialism", unlike capitalism or communism is that it isn't one system but a general idea of society's responsibility to resolve the problems wrought by capitalism. From Wikipedia, I found a description that fits this concept:

"Modern socialism originated from an 18th-century intellectual and working-class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private property on society. The revival of republicanism in the American Revolution of 1776 and the revival of egalitarianism in the French Revolution of 1789 converged into the rise of socialism as a distinct political movement by the turn of the century. Initially, "socialism" referred to general concern for the social problems of capitalism regardless of the solutions to those problems. However, by the late 19th century, after waves of revolutionary movements, "socialism" had come to signify opposition to capitalism and advocacy for a post-capitalist system based on some form of social ownership"

At its inception, socialism aligns well with Bernie's statements -- concern for the social problems of capitalism and proposals to mitigate those problems. Unlike capitalism and communism, socialism is not a monolithic concept. It can be social democracy with necessary public services under state ownership as practiced by some very effective economies in Europe or it can be much more than that. What socialism is not -- is what Communist Russia and China practiced. Their form of communism was totalitarianism, based upon central planning, distribution and control. A very extreme form of socialism perhaps but not the definition of the term.

There was a pivotal moment during the 1988 presidential campaign when during a debate George Bush the first accused Michael Dukakis of being a "card carrying liberal" and Dukakis ran away from the rather blatant reference to the red baiting era of the '50s. At the time Dukakis was winning in the polls but his spineless, mealy mouthed and chicken shit campaign as evidenced by him folding in the face of Bush's bluff eventually gave Bush I the advantage.

I don't want Sanders to run away from the idiotic label given to him by Hillary and the Red Bait crowd. Give the people a choice fer chryse sake. Political machines may believe this is too complicated for us or maybe they really don't want the kind of reforms that Sanders is proposing, maybe both are true. I think Sanders gives us more credit than that. Which is why he's an effective challenger to Ms Clinton.
 
I spent my time in college in science labs so I'm not claiming any expertise here. My impression of "socialism", unlike capitalism or communism is that it isn't one system but a general idea of society's responsibility to resolve the problems wrought by capitalism. From Wikipedia, I found a description that fits this concept:

"Modern socialism originated from an 18th-century intellectual and working-class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private property on society. The revival of republicanism in the American Revolution of 1776 and the revival of egalitarianism in the French Revolution of 1789 converged into the rise of socialism as a distinct political movement by the turn of the century. Initially, "socialism" referred to general concern for the social problems of capitalism regardless of the solutions to those problems. However, by the late 19th century, after waves of revolutionary movements, "socialism" had come to signify opposition to capitalism and advocacy for a post-capitalist system based on some form of social ownership"

At its inception, socialism aligns well with Bernie's statements -- concern for the social problems of capitalism and proposals to mitigate those problems. Unlike capitalism and communism, socialism is not a monolithic concept. It can be social democracy with necessary public services under state ownership as practiced by some very effective economies in Europe or it can be much more than that. What socialism is not -- is what Communist Russia and China practiced. Their form of communism was totalitarianism, based upon central planning, distribution and control. A very extreme form of socialism perhaps but not the definition of the term.

There was a pivotal moment during the 1988 presidential campaign when during a debate George Bush the first accused Michael Dukakis of being a "card carrying liberal" and Dukakis ran away from the rather blatant reference to the red baiting era of the '50s. At the time Dukakis was winning in the polls but his spineless, mealy mouthed and chicken shit campaign as evidenced by him folding in the face of Bush's bluff eventually gave Bush I the advantage.

I don't want Sanders to run away from the idiotic label given to him by Hillary and the Red Bait crowd. Give the people a choice fer chryse sake. Political machines may believe this is too complicated for us or maybe they really don't want the kind of reforms that Sanders is proposing, maybe both are true. I think Sanders gives us more credit than that. Which is why he's an effective challenger to Ms Clinton.


excellent post! +rep :clap:

i agree 1988 was a very important time but even more so..1994 when bush beat richards through whisper campaign regarding her successfully treated alcoholism, this combined with money from the religious+right (reagan brought these two together)..a new GOP was born, unlike any, this country has ever seen..or seen since.

the billionaires are choking us, cutting off our air supply like a boa constrictor..every time we release our breath it just chokes us further..until we no longer can take a breath.

this country is in for a major change and will never return to the days of money in politics.

the supremes made a huge mistake in allowing it.
 
excellent post! +rep :clap:

i agree 1988 was a very important time but even more so..1994 when bush beat richards through whisper campaign regarding her successfully treated alcoholism, this combined with money from the religious+right (reagan brought these two together)..a new GOP was born, unlike any, this country has ever seen..or seen since.

the billionaires are choking us, cutting off our air supply like a boa constrictor..every time we release our breath it just chokes us further..until we no longer can take a breath.

this country is in for a major change and will never return to the days of money in politics.

the supremes made a huge mistake in allowing it.
"Money is protected free speech" and Companies are people. Two rulings that were designed to chip away at the power of the electorate. I'm sure the supremos knew exactly what they were doing when the ruled that way. Its called pay back for the cushy job.

The Raygun and Bush I appointees will affect us for a long time. I don't know if the power of the oligarchy of the ultra rich will be broken. If it's going to happen it needs to happen soon.

The politics of the Bush II machine was awful. Even some in the republican party disdained it. Its not over either. The core Democratic party isn't any better in this regard though.
 
excellent post! +rep :clap:

i agree 1988 was a very important time but even more so..1994 when bush beat richards through whisper campaign regarding her successfully treated alcoholism, this combined with money from the religious+right (reagan brought these two together)..a new GOP was born, unlike any, this country has ever seen..or seen since.

the billionaires are choking us, cutting off our air supply like a boa constrictor..every time we release our breath it just chokes us further..until we no longer can take a breath.

this country is in for a major change and will never return to the days of money in politics.

the supremes made a huge mistake in allowing it.
 
Corporations have been considered "people" since the founding of the country. This is not something invented by John Roberts and George W Bush during one of their many week long benders.

Nobody said speech = money, the ruling simply says you have a right to spend your money to promote your political ideas. If your ideas suck, no amount of money is going to make them palatable, and if you have great ideas a little bit of money to expose them to the public is enough.

Eric Cantor is a perfect example of lots of money poorly spent.

Fogdog, your explanation of socialism alienated me when it said "private property" is a bad idea. That is exactly what is wrong with socialism. It creates an incentive to be lazy: what is the point of busting your ass if you get nothing for it? Taken to the logical conclusion socialism leads to communism. No thanks.
 
excellent post! +rep :clap:

i agree 1988 was a very important time but even more so..1994 when bush beat richards through whisper campaign regarding her successfully treated alcoholism, ...

But should the leader of the world be a forever-recovering drug addict? I don't think so.
 

Because the leader of the whole world should be free of cravings and possible brain chemistry changes that can occur with alcoholism.

And someone with the terrible judgement to allow themselves to become an alcoholic shouldn't be the final link in deciding to launch nuclear weapons, or in deciding not to. IMHO sir.
 
Corporations have been considered "people" since the founding of the country. This is not something invented by John Roberts and George W Bush during one of their many week long benders.

Nobody said speech = money, the ruling simply says you have a right to spend your money to promote your political ideas. If your ideas suck, no amount of money is going to make them palatable, and if you have great ideas a little bit of money to expose them to the public is enough.

Eric Cantor is a perfect example of lots of money poorly spent.

Fogdog, your explanation of socialism alienated me when it said "private property" is a bad idea. That is exactly what is wrong with socialism. It creates an incentive to be lazy: what is the point of busting your ass if you get nothing for it? Taken to the logical conclusion socialism leads to communism. No thanks.

no one likes you, rat.

just go away.
 
Buck is a known liar and that is just another one of his lies. So thats two against one and buck loses.

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