The people behind the violence in the American protests of George Floyd.

hanimmal · Aug 7, 2020

TrippleDip said:
Sure, there are agitators, probably some of them govt too, but it's not all and I would wager not mostly white people. It's not majority white people looting, and it's definitely not majority white people pulling people out of their cars and beating them to death (hello reginald denny). It is also not majority white people preventing people from accessing their homes and the roads they pay tax for, and this is violence too as much as you would pretend it isn't. It would be nice to see the police footage of the protests, ie bodycams of front line officers. It should be public.

Why don't you put up or shut up on this? Show the things you care about and lets discuss them.

TrippleDip said:
For the third time I've asked. What is your explanation for somalis, nigerians, asians, many types of indian including tamils outcompeting white people (in terms of earnings). Are white people racist against indigenous black people somehow but not african immigrants?

How is racism the cause of police violence in majority nonwhite cities with majority nonwhite police forces like chicago, detroit, baltimore, mew orleans, etc. How are whites keeping the black man (but not the somali or nigerian) down here?

I think the reason has to do with living in a majority nonwhite area of 9 million. In many many ways nonwhites have it way easier.

Also occam's razor seems to fit. The current problems of poverty and gangs and fatherlessness is creating more of the same, not racism. Maybe racism got everyone here but it is not perpetuating the cycle right now.

Seattle voted to cut their police budget, in five years we can see how these policies have helped, but it doesn't bode well given the track record for many il"liberal" cities. Actually we can go back only five years and look at baltimore. Blm riots, police force cut in half, violence skyrockets, anyone who can (taxpayers) leaves. Why do you deny this, or is racism somehow in some roundabout way the cause of this too?

How is it that you don't consider the fact that there are these large minority communities that I think at least you should be able to concede were kept in through redlining and mortgage lending racist keeping them from moving into the white suburbs in our lifetimes. How can you possibly not expect these minority cities that people are stuffed into old crumbling infrastructure while the tax base fled not have led to the problems we have today. Especially as rural white America systmatically send their mentally ill people not heir way to the city with a bus ticket to live on the streets and become part of someone else problem.

You trolling them as 'liberal' cities is just propaganda. There is only one party that is not comprised of almost only Wealthy White Heterosexual Males. The Democrats have been the only ones legislating for all of America since the Republicans started their Southern Strategy.

TrippleDip said:
Do you really believe "your side" is so innocent. Politicians everywhere lie to get elected, it's their job. It's the job of the media to provide fair and accurate and unbiased reporting of the facts so that an educated populace can make their own decisions. The media has failed, and the educational system has failed to do so. The result is what we have today with zealots determined to erase history (see islam and blowing up monuments, a wonder how alike they and blm are threatening violence to get their demands met ie terrorists) in order that people will never be educated enough to make their own decisions. It is as if they wish to erase slavery altogether so that people will be content to be economic slaves (funny how that term has been dropped from vernacular yet it is more relevant than ever). I don't have a side here, I have voted liberal more than conservative and I believe that the constituents should vote for what's best for them simple. I don't see how unrestricted immigration, stricter gun control, bigger government, less law enforcement, and fewer liberties is better for any citizen.

Bullshit, politicians mostly do the I am not answering the question evasion bullshit and don't flat out lie. That is a Trump phenomena, unless you mean the criminals that have always tried to con people throughout human history.

AP news is about as unbiased as it gets.

"Erasing history" is epic snow flaking. You do get that out of the 80 or so statues taken down, 9 of them were by protestors? And at least one of them was taken down by white rioters. And you can see I've highlighted the ones I watched have all shown mostly white rioters using BLM as cover.

The rest of your right wing hate monger radio rant might sell well, but it is all just someone selling you against someone else. It's all they got and outside of cherry picked facts is bullshit.

continued:

hanimmal · Aug 7, 2020

cont:

TrippleDip said:
I only meant everyone on all sides is claiming to be what they aren't. There are disinfo campaigns from the dems, from the repubs, from foreign interests like russia and china, probably the uk, mexico, and india too. Not to mention corporations.

I don't know much about the epoch times, but I thought you would support those fighting for the repressed ethic muslims being sent to camps in china, or is simply endorsing trump enough to make you overlook that?

How do you know that the Democrats are engaged in this? Outside of some Trump cultist.

As for Epoch times, look into them, I am all for every humans rights so don't put that evil on me. But they are batshit crazy foreign cultists that need to stay the fuck out of our elections. Foreign nations engaging in our elections is illegal, and why president Obama slapped the sanctions on Russia and expelled their diplomats after they learned of the Russian militaries attack on our citizens.

The ones that Flynn undermined the very day by calling the Russians to undercut our government on Trump's behalf while Trump was not POTUS. A call that was not listening to Flynn, but one of the foreign nationals when the call was intercepted.

TrippleDip said:
My friend, with all the shaming and lack of conversation this is almost a left wing media bubble. It is one of the reasons I am compelled to post sometimes.

Re data: so you can attack the sources instead of the message? Give me a bit on the racial earnings. You're right that eve I cherry pick data because the number of unarmed men over the last decade is always close to but less than 100, only in 2018/9 it was 50.

I wish you would respond more then.

Put up or shut up with what you believe, if you truly think they have a point. My thoughts on me attacking the sources, likely yes I would, generally they should be attacked because it is the only way to show how full of shit that they are. Why would you not trust the validity of their research?

But I can make it easy, it all again boils down to it is not enough time in the years since black people and other minority communities have been able to take advantage of our economy due to centuries of repression being legally sanctioned by our government.

Think of all those times as a kid you did something that could have gotten you in trouble if you were caught. Maybe sometimes you even were. Now if you grew up in a white county that had 200 cops per 600 square miles it would be far less likelihood you would get in legal trouble than you would in a city like Detroit where there are currently 2200 cops in a 170 square mile radius.

How do you think the fact that these over-policed and economics repressed communities are impacted when 1/3 of the men in your community become felons? How do you think that impacts their children and ability to earn for the rest of their lives?

And before you say they should not have done the crime, maybe think about those examples in your life I asked about earlier and think about the increased likelihood you would have had to get caught if you were in a area with that amount of police or people that could have been hurt being so much closer in proximity.

TrippleDip said:
I also want to know why people seem to think racism is getting worse? Two generations ago blacks were barred from certain professions, now people are to scared to use even slightly raciallized language such as spanish negro even though it is correct and culturally approved in spanish speaking countries. The worst a black kid sees today in terms of active racism is maybe being called a bad name. They will be admitted to schools with lower grades, and will be hired/promoted over a white person at any major corporation just for the colour of their skin.

I don't think it is getting worse, I think it is getting filmed and uploaded and that is being amplified by the weaponized data attack Russia is conducting on us.

TrippleDip said:
To what? The fact that anyone can choose any profession now, can sit where they want, go to the schools that they want, work anywhere they want, even become the fucking president of the usa when they couldn't just decades ago. People haven't been lynched over rumours in three times as long. This is progress. Show me regress.

'Just decades ago' is not enough time for the type of generational wealth that black people and other minorities were kept out of.

UncleBuck · Aug 7, 2020

TrippleDip said:
Press X to doubt.

Noone could watch that video and tell you with a straight face that the cop did nothing wrong. Such people are either trolls or simply trying to defend the police because policing is one of the toughest professions in the country and I bet every cop does a lot of stuff wrong over their career, they're human too, and they certainly do more good than bad.

Anyone that says this cop wasn't going to jail anyways (deservedly) is lying. He would have been convicted without a doubt. I don't see what these protests are supposed to achieve. They make black people everywhere look bad because they are working outside of society instead of using democracy to bring about change.

Shut up already

TrippleDip · Aug 7, 2020

I will respond with more, probably tomorrow, but first let me address what I think are your two best points:

hanimmal said:
Think of all those times as a kid you did something that could have gotten you in trouble if you were caught. Maybe sometimes you even were. Now if you grew up in a white county that had 200 cops per 600 square miles it would be far less likelihood you would get in legal trouble than you would in a city like Detroit where there are currently 2200 cops in a 170 square mile radius.

How do you think the fact that these over-policed and economics repressed communities are impacted when 1/3 of the men in your community become felons? How do you think that impacts their children and ability to earn for the rest of their lives?

And before you say they should not have done the crime, maybe think about those examples in your life I asked about earlier and think about the increased likelihood you would have had to get caught if you were in a area with that amount of police or people that could have been hurt being so much closer in proximity.

This is true. Up here we have the youth criminal justice act, which makes it illegal to give a sentence to a person under 24 if there are other options available / not a repeat offender. This could make a huge difference. It is not the problems where we disagree but the solutions. I think cutting police will have the effect of creating more criminals even if there are less on paper. San franscisco recently decriminalizing petty crime like theft under 1000 is a good example of this. Imo building healthy families is key to prevent youth from drug and gang problems, while relaxing the laws will entice more young people into the game even just to try it out make some money while they know they won't get charged. Me and my friends were of that mindset as kids.

It will be very interesting to see with seattle if the additional money to social programs will offset the increase in crime as seen in baltimore where no significant additional money was given to social programs when their police force quit.

hanimmal said:
But I can make it easy, it all again boils down to it is not enough time in the years since black people and other minority communities have been able to take advantage of our economy due to centuries of repression being legally sanctioned by our government.

I hear the "they will never catch up because the others have a head start" argument except immigrants come here, frequently from war torn countries with nothing, no family and succeed over generations. African americans have decades of history and lots of family connections so they have a huge head start over them but somehow it doesn't matter.

I also don't buy it because it's akin to releasing a cold gas and a warm gas in a container and heating it up expecting that the hot gas will be forever hotter than the cold one. In 100 years we will all be so mixed it wont matter anyways.

Lastly I believe it is fundamentally wrong to treat people differently on the basis of their skin as you advocate (only lend a hand up to certain races) as opposed to class (welfare is a good thing). You didn't answer before how you plan to end all these racist policies once equity has been reached and why black people would let you.

TrippleDip · Aug 7, 2020

Also maybe wikipedia is an ok source for racial earning data. Note the many immigrant groups that outperform both white and black americans.

List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Fogdog · Aug 7, 2020

TrippleDip said:
I will respond with more, probably tomorrow, but first let me address what I think are your two best points:

This is true. Up here we have the youth criminal justice act, which makes it illegal to give a sentence to a person under 24 if there are other options available / not a repeat offender. This could make a huge difference. It is not the problems where we disagree but the solutions. I think cutting police will have the effect of creating more criminals even if there are less on paper. San franscisco recently decriminalizing petty crime like theft under 1000 is a good example of this. Imo building healthy families is key to prevent youth from drug and gang problems, while relaxing the laws will entice more young people into the game even just to try it out make some money while they know they won't get charged. Me and my friends were of that mindset as kids.

It will be very interesting to see with seattle if the additional money to social programs will offset the increase in crime as seen in baltimore where no significant additional money was given to social programs when their police force quit.

I hear the "they will never catch up because the others have a head start" argument except immigrants come here, frequently from war torn countries with nothing, no family and succeed over generations. African americans have decades of history and lots of family connections so they have a huge head start over them but somehow it doesn't matter.

I also don't buy it because it's akin to releasing a cold gas and a warm gas in a container and heating it up expecting that the hot gas will be forever hotter than the cold one. In 100 years we will all be so mixed it wont matter anyways.

Lastly I believe it is fundamentally wrong to treat people differently on the basis of their skin as you advocate (only lend a hand up to certain races) as opposed to class (welfare is a good thing). You didn't answer before how you plan to end all these racist policies once equity has been reached and why black people would let you.

Canadians will never really understand the US. This post, for example. Laughable how they think they understand but don't. Is ignorance taught in their schools?

DIY-HP-LED · Aug 7, 2020

Fogdog said:
Canadians will never really understand the US. This post, for example. Laughable how they think they understand but don't. Is ignorance taught in their schools?

Don't think he made it out of junior high, we've got retards too ya know! Remember that 33% that every country has? BTW Not all of them are suicidal, even in America.

Fogdog · Aug 7, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
Don't think he made it out of junior high, we've got retards too ya know! Remember that 33% that every country has? BTW Not all of them are suicidal, even in America.

How did suicide come up?

DIY-HP-LED · Aug 7, 2020

Fogdog said:
How did suicide come up?

Even those people who are extremist, those who still support Trump for instance, are not so far gone as to be suicidal, though some clearly are. Given the current situation in America it is becoming apparent, even the most thickheaded realise where following Trump will lead to, death. I figure many will just stay home or not bother mailing in the ballot. At least I hope.

Fogdog · Aug 7, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
Even those people who are extremist, those who still support Trump for instance, are not so far gone as to be suicidal, though some clearly are. Given the current situation in America it is becoming apparent to even the most thickheaded who realise where following Trump will lead, death. I figure many will just stay home or not bother mailing in the ballot. At least I hope.

Well, with all the new handgun owners since the beginning of the epidemic (don't ask, I can't explain, it's just that there are a lot of fearful people), it's completely expected that there is another epidemic underway -- gun accidents. But I don't see suicide on the rise. We want to survive this. Same in Canada, I suppose.

TrippleDip · Aug 8, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
following Trump

Do you really think people are following some guy or voting for some party or their side rather than voting for specific interests that they have, such as equal treatment before the law, and restricted immigration (something good for all citizens). If the democrats adopted more sensible and mainstream views they would be in power right now and the right would be moving to adapt. Instead they are playing identity politics and are alienating at best, actively demonizing at worst, the majority.

Progressives don't realize they are less than 10% of the population because of their insular silos, but there is a big correction coming, even left wing publications are espousing peak wokeness, comedians are laughing at them now, people are being uncancelled due to the organized actions of free-speech unions and universities are paying millions in settlements against people they fired over speech. This is why the people that peddle their grievance/oppression based religion are putting in 110% right now. It's why the nyt editors call questioning the facts "a threat to the lives" of their community, a weird stance given that newpapers are supposed to investigate and question.

DIY-HP-LED said:
I figure many will just stay home or not bother mailing in the ballot. At least I hope.

I hope every citizen takes a good look at what each party is promising and thinks about what is best for the citizens and future generations in each election and makes an educated decision on the best course for the country.

TrippleDip · Aug 8, 2020

Just going to leave this here too, from a left wing publication no less.

The case for hiring more police officers

A crime-fighting idea that actually works, and new exclusive polling shows it’s popular across all racial groups.

www.vox.com

Whenever you look at actual data it seems that everyone wants more police protecting their communities. It was the community leaders that were calling for more police enforcement in baltimore and blm that wanted less. It is the same today, the policies will only work to hurt those that cannot afford private security eg the most vulnerable. Sad to see history repeat itself.

It is also common that when you look at actual data that what you are saying about racism increasing and an epidemic of police violence is also false. The vast majority of all people from all races support the police in the jobs they do and it's only in online forums that people are so anti police. If you want police out of your neighbourhood bring it to your city council with your neighbours, no problem but you want the police to protect you right?

Same with trying to portray people as voting blocks rather than individuals. Nearly 40% of hispanics voted for trump in 2016. Yelling racist at people outside won't make them vote against their best interests inside an anonymous voting booth just make them nod their head and ignore you the best they can.

Edit to note that the study found that by eliminating overtime hours they found use of force fell 23%. Something that requires more police, not less.

Edit again to note that I am cautiously optimistic for the results of seattles spending on social programs.

zeddd · Aug 8, 2020

TrippleDip said:
Just going to leave this here too, from a left wing publication no less.
View attachment 4647575

The case for hiring more police officers

A crime-fighting idea that actually works, and new exclusive polling shows it’s popular across all racial groups.

www.vox.com

Whenever you look at actual data it seems that everyone wants more police protecting their communities. It was the community leaders that were calling for more police enforcement in baltimore and blm that wanted less. It is the same today, the policies will only work to hurt those that cannot afford private security eg the most vulnerable. Sad to see history repeat itself.

It is also common that when you look at actual data that what you are saying about racism increasing and an epidemic of police violence is also false. The vast majority of all people from all races support the police in the jobs they do and it's only in online forums that people are so anti police. If you want police out of your neighbourhood bring it to your city council with your neighbours, no problem but you want the police to protect you right?

Same with trying to portray people as voting blocks rather than individuals. Nearly 40% of hispanics voted for trump in 2016. Yelling racist at people outside won't make them vote against their best interests inside an anonymous voting booth just make them nod their head and ignore you the best they can.

Edit to note that the study found that by eliminating overtime hours they found use of force fell 23%. Something that requires more police, not less.

Edit again to note that I am cautiously optimistic for the results of seattles spending on social programs.

Thanks Tucker

hanimmal · Aug 8, 2020

TrippleDip said:
Just going to leave this here too, from a left wing publication no less.
View attachment 4647575

The case for hiring more police officers

A crime-fighting idea that actually works, and new exclusive polling shows it’s popular across all racial groups.

www.vox.com

Whenever you look at actual data it seems that everyone wants more police protecting their communities. It was the community leaders that were calling for more police enforcement in baltimore and blm that wanted less. It is the same today, the policies will only work to hurt those that cannot afford private security eg the most vulnerable. Sad to see history repeat itself.

It is also common that when you look at actual data that what you are saying about racism increasing and an epidemic of police violence is also false. The vast majority of all people from all races support the police in the jobs they do and it's only in online forums that people are so anti police. If you want police out of your neighbourhood bring it to your city council with your neighbours, no problem but you want the police to protect you right?

Same with trying to portray people as voting blocks rather than individuals. Nearly 40% of hispanics voted for trump in 2016. Yelling racist at people outside won't make them vote against their best interests inside an anonymous voting booth just make them nod their head and ignore you the best they can.

Edit to note that the study found that by eliminating overtime hours they found use of force fell 23%. Something that requires more police, not less.

Edit again to note that I am cautiously optimistic for the results of seattles spending on social programs.

Asking a innocuous question like 'do you think there should be more of x hired' it is a very easy question to say 'yes' to, especially with the loaded question of 'in high crime areas' is attached.

the 'Defund the police' message (while being the worst slogan ever) is about not hiring more cops, it is about hiring things like mental health professionals to initiate contact and talk people down instead of treating everything like a hammer.

Nobody (outside of the people who want to cut taxes any chance they get maybe) wants to see police working more hours and getting more burnt out.

TrippleDip said:
Do you really think people are following some guy or voting for some party or their side rather than voting for specific interests that they have, such as equal treatment before the law, and restricted immigration (something good for all citizens). If the democrats adopted more sensible and mainstream views they would be in power right now and the right would be moving to adapt. Instead they are playing identity politics and are alienating at best, actively demonizing at worst, the majority.

Progressives don't realize they are less than 10% of the population because of their insular silos, but there is a big correction coming, even left wing publications are espousing peak wokeness, comedians are laughing at them now, people are being uncancelled due to the organized actions of free-speech unions and universities are paying millions in settlements against people they fired over speech. This is why the people that peddle their grievance/oppression based religion are putting in 110% right now. It's why the nyt editors call questioning the facts "a threat to the lives" of their community, a weird stance given that newpapers are supposed to investigate and question.

I hope every citizen takes a good look at what each party is promising and thinks about what is best for the citizens and future generations in each election and makes an educated decision on the best course for the country.

You should quit listening to what right wing media tell you that the Democrats are all about, because they are obviously lying to you.

TrippleDip said:
Also maybe wikipedia is an ok source for racial earning data. Note the many immigrant groups that outperform both white and black americans.

List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Their data is at least linked so you can check the sources.

I would point to the difference of when they have been coming here and with what they came with. Also looking at just averages can be highly skewed by the small numbers of these groups here vs the black/latino population that have been here for as long as white people and for far longer.

TrippleDip said:
This is true. Up here we have the youth criminal justice act, which makes it illegal to give a sentence to a person under 24 if there are other options available / not a repeat offender. This could make a huge difference. It is not the problems where we disagree but the solutions. I think cutting police will have the effect of creating more criminals even if there are less on paper. San franscisco recently decriminalizing petty crime like theft under 1000 is a good example of this. Imo building healthy families is key to prevent youth from drug and gang problems, while relaxing the laws will entice more young people into the game even just to try it out make some money while they know they won't get charged. Me and my friends were of that mindset as kids.

It will be very interesting to see with seattle if the additional money to social programs will offset the increase in crime as seen in baltimore where no significant additional money was given to social programs when their police force quit.

Quit putting 'cutting the police' on anyone but the right wing radicalized talking point. It is a lie. It is about not having a armed forceful response to every kid stealing a pop or mentally ill person off their meds.

hanimmal · Aug 8, 2020

TrippleDip said:
I hear the "they will never catch up because the others have a head start" argument except immigrants come here, frequently from war torn countries with nothing, no family and succeed over generations. African americans have decades of history and lots of family connections so they have a huge head start over them but somehow it doesn't matter.

I also don't buy it because it's akin to releasing a cold gas and a warm gas in a container and heating it up expecting that the hot gas will be forever hotter than the cold one. In 100 years we will all be so mixed it wont matter anyways.

Lastly I believe it is fundamentally wrong to treat people differently on the basis of their skin as you advocate (only lend a hand up to certain races) as opposed to class (welfare is a good thing). You didn't answer before how you plan to end all these racist policies once equity has been reached and why black people would let you.

You are hearing the argument wrong too. 'A couple decades is not enough time to have caught up' is not the same as what you are saying it is in this paragraph.

33% of those family connections (on male side) on average have been convicted of a felony and have far fewer prospects or ability to help a child succeed in school and society because our system is more about punishing people which hurts their ability to function healthily.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/why-do-blacks-trail-in-benchmarks-leading-to-middle-class/428853/

Screen Shot 2020-08-08 at 6.31.42 AM.png

1. Do not fall into the racist trap of thinking that anything you think you understand is reflective of the black people in our nation as a whole, or any race in America. Even with all the bullshit they have to go through 1/3 of the 46 million people making their way into the middle class. Do they have to deal with stupidity of racists in their new neighborhoods, of course they do. Do they have a higher chance still of being a victim of police violence, of course they do.

2. Consider how the decades of being forced to live in these small poverty stricken completely overpopulated areas have on how productive they can be.
link to below information.

Living in urban environments also increases the risk of exposure to violence and one-quarter of low-income, urban youth have witnessed a murder.8 In one study of inner-city 7-year-olds, 75 percent had heard gunshots, 60 percent had seen drug deals, 18 percent had seen a dead body outside, and 10 percent had seen a shooting or stabbing at home.9 In a Chicago study, approximately 25 percent of Black children reported witnessing a person shot and 29 percent indicated that they had seen a stabbing.10 After one of the children participating in this study described the violent deaths of seven close family members, an eight-year-old remarked that "just" three people in her family had died violently.11 Such family and community violence is most often perpetrated by persons known to the youth, and is likely to be reoccurring—creating potentially greater harm to a developing child than would a one-time incident of victimization.12

Youth exposure to victimization is directly linked to negative outcomes for young people, including increased depression, substance abuse, risky sexual behavior, homelessness, and poor school performance.13 Youth victimization increases the odds of becoming a perpetrator of violent crimes, including felony assault and intimate partner violence,14 doubles the likelihood of problematic drug use, and increases the odds of committing property crimes.15

I think of it like a plant. If I put a plant in shit soil with very little nutrients in a dirty pot and don't do anything to fix those issues early on, it is so much more likely to get buggy, get fungus, or any of the other things that can go wrong.

Likewise if I want to LST it and bend the branches around, if I was just to leave it, sure it might grow, gnarled, but it is far more likely that the branches are going to start to bend into the soil as those buds get heavier, so I need to support those weakened branches until it has time to make it to harvest. Because all that damage is permanent even if it heals it is never the same.

Now if you have a plant in a nice clean pot with all the right balance of nutrients and support needed and the right environment it is far more likely to thrive through its maturity. It is much easier and successful to do shit right from the start.

I don't see it much different with people. We need to set everyone up for success, and that does mean having to overcome the ways we have hurt our black/latino communities over the centuries.

TrippleDip · Aug 8, 2020

hanimmal said:
33% of those family connections (on male side) on average have been convicted of a felony and have far fewer prospects or ability to help a child succeed in school

You mean that getting involved in gangs and drugs INCREASES the chance of kids around you getting involved in gangs or drugs, what a shock. How come people with criminal records aren't working construction or manual labour in droves and telling their kids/nephews that committing crime is bad for their futures? Maybe they think it's easy money and the revolving door system won't keep them locked up so it's ok. Maybe we should keep the felons away from the children and see how that works.

Even so, imagine coming here with nothing, your parents can't even teach you english or navigate basic social services as they've only just arrived. Your isolated and get racism from the whites and the blacks. This is what immigrant children have to come up from.

Any second generation child should know they need to work on getting good credit and make investments to succeed in life, but many black people are rejecting this path to live off welfare and cash jobs or drug money.

And yes, I realize they haven't had enough time to catch up isn't the same as they won't catch up. So do you admit that they will catch up given time then? What is the justification for such racist policies if they will catch up eventually anyways.

hanimmal said:
I think of it like a plant. If I put a plant in shit soil with very little nutrients in a dirty pot and don't do anything to fix those issues early on, it is so much more likely to get buggy, get fungus, or any of the other things that can go wrong.

Likewise if I want to LST it and bend the branches around, if I was just to leave it, sure it might grow, gnarled, but it is far more likely that the branches are going to start to bend into the soil as those buds get heavier, so I need to support those weakened branches until it has time to make it to harvest. Because all that damage is permanent even if it heals it is never the same.

Good analogy, except a person is a plant and a community is an ecosystem. You can keep pumping fertilizer into an unhealthy ecosystem and get product, but the second you stop it will turn to wasteland. We need to support the communities to the point where they can support themselves.

Removing the unhealthy parts of the ecosystem, such as fatherlessness and lack of role models is how we should support the community. This is majorly a job for the community themselves; they need to get rid of their criminals by not protecting them, and they need to build strong grassroots organisations that serve their local community instead of relying on big daddy government.

Propping up people here and there and releasing them into an unhealthy environment does not produce a self sufficient community - it produces a community dependant on government programs.

hanimmal said:
the 'Defund the police' message (while being the worst slogan ever) is about not hiring more cops, it is about hiring things like mental health professionals to initiate contact and talk people down instead of treating everything like a hammer.

Nobody (outside of the people who want to cut taxes any chance they get maybe) wants to see police working more hours and getting more burnt out.

What do you think will happen in Seattle with their police funding cut? Did people not vote for it? We will get to see in a few years.

hanimmal said:
You should quit listening to what right wing media tell you that the Democrats are all about, because they are obviously lying to you.

If you read what I say I am not left or right wing. I advocate for evaluating individual programs based on their data driven success rate and not who introduced them. I advocate voting for politicians that will produce the changes that you want to see on the ground and in your communities. I have posted this three times so far in this thread but continue to be called right wing for suggesting responsible citizens making educated choices as the best way forward.

hanimmal said:
How can you possibly not expect these minority cities that people are stuffed into old crumbling infrastructure while the tax base fled not have led to the problems we have today. Especially as rural white America systmatically send their mentally ill people not heir way to the city with a bus ticket to live on the streets and become part of someone else problem.

But why not look at why the tax base fled? Mostly crime and not being safe. There are lots of successful communities that remain because they are the 1% and can afford private security. Baltimores exodus of taxpayers didn't start until after blm forced the coops out in 2015. SanFrans exodus didn't start in earnest until they decriminalized petty crime and their crime rate skyrocketed.

I also love how 1) it's white peoples fault for some of them having a human condition. And 2) these people have no agency, they just do whatever this "white people" boogyman you have dreamt up tells them to do unquestioningly. How about they themselves travel to the city because they get free food, free housing, and don't need to drive to get around? Much simple than the evil white man bogeyman actively sabotaging the cities by breeding people who can travel.

Herb & Suds · Aug 8, 2020

TrippleDip said:
You mean that getting involved in gangs and drugs INCREASES the chance of kids around you getting involved in gangs or drugs, what a shock. How come people with criminal records aren't working construction or manual labour in droves and telling their kids/nephews that committing crime is bad for their futures? Maybe they think it's easy money and the revolving door system won't keep them locked up so it's ok. Maybe we should keep the felons away from the children and see how that works.

Even so, imagine coming here with nothing, your parents can't even teach you english or navigate basic social services as they've only just arrived. Your isolated and get racism from the whites and the blacks. This is what immigrant children have to come up from.

Any second generation child should know they need to work on getting good credit and make investments to succeed in life, but many black people are rejecting this path to live off welfare and cash jobs or drug money.

And yes, I realize they haven't had enough time to catch up isn't the same as they won't catch up. So do you admit that they will catch up given time then? What is the justification for such racist policies if they will catch up eventually anyways.

Good analogy, except a person is a plant and a community is an ecosystem. You can keep pumping fertilizer into an unhealthy ecosystem and get product, but the second you stop it will turn to wasteland. We need to support the communities to the point where they can support themselves.

Removing the unhealthy parts of the ecosystem, such as fatherlessness and lack of role models is how we should support the community. This is majorly a job for the community themselves; they need to get rid of their criminals by not protecting them, and they need to build strong grassroots organisations that serve their local community instead of relying on big daddy government.

Propping up people here and there and releasing them into an unhealthy environment does not produce a self sufficient community - it produces a community dependant on government programs.

What do you think will happen in Seattle with their police funding cut? Did people not vote for it? We will get to see in a few years.

If you read what I say I am not left or right wing. I advocate for evaluating individual programs based on their data driven success rate and not who introduced them. I advocate voting for politicians that will produce the changes that you want to see on the ground and in your communities. I have posted this three times so far in this thread but continue to be called right wing for suggesting responsible citizens making educated choices as the best way forward.

But why not look at why the tax base fled? Mostly crime and not being safe. There are lots of successful communities that remain because they are the 1% and can afford private security. Baltimores exodus of taxpayers didn't start until after blm forced the coops out in 2015. SanFrans exodus didn't start in earnest until they decriminalized petty crime and their crime rate skyrocketed.

I also love how 1) it's white peoples fault for some of them having a human condition. And 2) these people have no agency, they just do whatever this "white people" boogyman you have dreamt up tells them to do unquestioningly. How about they themselves travel to the city because they get free food, free housing, and don't need to drive to get around? Much simple than the evil white man bogeyman actively sabotaging the cities by breeding people who can travel.

You ever been to Sturgis
Im guessing you have

UncleBuck · Aug 8, 2020

Herb & Suds said:
You ever been to Sturgis
Im guessing you have

every winter he has daydreams involving sweaty leather

Fogdog · Aug 8, 2020

TrippleDip said:
Just going to leave this here too, from a left wing publication no less.
View attachment 4647575

The case for hiring more police officers

A crime-fighting idea that actually works, and new exclusive polling shows it’s popular across all racial groups.

www.vox.com

Whenever you look at actual data it seems that everyone wants more police protecting their communities. It was the community leaders that were calling for more police enforcement in baltimore and blm that wanted less. It is the same today, the policies will only work to hurt those that cannot afford private security eg the most vulnerable. Sad to see history repeat itself.

It is also common that when you look at actual data that what you are saying about racism increasing and an epidemic of police violence is also false. The vast majority of all people from all races support the police in the jobs they do and it's only in online forums that people are so anti police. If you want police out of your neighbourhood bring it to your city council with your neighbours, no problem but you want the police to protect you right?

Same with trying to portray people as voting blocks rather than individuals. Nearly 40% of hispanics voted for trump in 2016. Yelling racist at people outside won't make them vote against their best interests inside an anonymous voting booth just make them nod their head and ignore you the best they can.

Edit to note that the study found that by eliminating overtime hours they found use of force fell 23%. Something that requires more police, not less.

Edit again to note that I am cautiously optimistic for the results of seattles spending on social programs.

Statistics by themselves are useless. For example, cherry picked stats like yours are used to prop up your argument rather than inform people. It's a false argument. As hannimal points out, the poll isn't a very good one either.

Trump is going to win and some cities are going to try alternatives to militarized police. After decades of police brutality continuing unabated right despite earnest actions to enact "police reforms", many of us want to try something else.

Why do you even care, Canadian white man? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question. You are howling like a struck dog over this. Canada has its own issues with racism to deal with.

hanimmal · Aug 8, 2020

TrippleDip said:
You mean that getting involved in gangs and drugs INCREASES the chance of kids around you getting involved in gangs or drugs, what a shock.

Starting out a conversation by being a troll makes it easy to not want to continue the conversation.

Where do you think most kids get involved in gangs?

TrippleDip said:
How come people with criminal records aren't working construction or manual labour in droves and telling their kids/nephews that committing crime is bad for their futures?

Why would you think they are not? This is where your racism shows. You assume that every trope you think is true get applied too widely.

I will continue through the rest of your post, but I would question everything you are seeing right now, because we are all under attack and I am willing to bet you are being spammed nonstop to get you to feel the way you are with whatever media you are consuming.

The people behind the violence in the American protests of George Floyd.

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