The LED Market's Divisions of Quality, (Apollo/SGS/AT200)

Alright you beautiful people, time to give back to the community where I can! Not many are crazy enough to void warranties on ~1600 bucks worth of lighting, but, have faith my people! These fuckers wont go out, and if im "fortunate" enough that they do, ill get my ass in there and fix em! onward with the magic!

This is here to bring to light what we actually pay for when you see these "absurd" price tags, all you no name, generic rebranded panel lovers....... again, no qualms if that's what you want, but here's where you're cost savings is going.

Okay, so a little breakdown of each light,


-The All White 6-spot Apollo- (2012 Area 51 Series)-

-4250k Helioptos LEDs (according to company, custom veg light made right before the SGS release)
-15 LEDs per pcb
-45 LEDs per driver
-90 LEDs total
-x2 ~120mm fans?
-x4 Drivers, x1 fan psu (driver specs- 55-85V, 500-550mA, no name brand)
-x2 switches for each "bay" of lights for 1/2 Power
-Actual Draw: 110-195w
-Fans run continuously as long as fan is plugged in and has power routed (timer on)



-The Area 51 SGS-160- (2013 Series)-

-24 630nm Cree XPEs
-48 ????k Cree XPGs (neutral white)
-80* Lenses (from what I remember)
-2 ~120mm fans? (same as '12 series)
-x3 Drivers (driver specs: x1@ 40-55V and 580-640mA [XPEs], x2@ 55-85 and 700-750mA [XPGs]) but again, no name china brands, same vendor as '12 series, soooo...
-x1 switch for reds, whites and fans run as long as panel has power routed
-Heatsink dimensions: 17 5/8"x4 5/8"x1/4" (my tape measurer's tip was bent up, so may take an FUZZ off)
-Actual Draw: 122-157w



-The Apache Tech AT200- (2013 update)

-x72 Cool White Nichia (no kelvin, not many details available)
-x48 630nm Nichia (I do know they are 630, but again not many details available)
-14* Lenses (28* actual)
-x2 smaller 60mm? fans and separate psu
x2 Meanwell PLC-100-20 Class 2 Power Supply drivers, Input: 1.4A, Output +20V and 4.8A (I was a little confused by this... why a lower input but higher output- which is the actual driven current?)
-x1 switch for entire panel and fans
-Heatsink dimensions: 3/16" Lip, 1" Rim before fins, and actual dimensions of fins: 11 1/8"x9 5/8"x1"
-Actual Draw: 167w


**if there are any details I missed please feel free to ask and I will do what I can**

Pictures coming up,

Some things to point out that I thought were pros or cons of each

1.) Look for the flashes in the Apollos heatsink- igh... QUALITY right there. Notice the bent fins as well. (again, lets get this out of the way- this isn't calling any company out- its the source of parts- we've already seen the pcbs stating "evergrow," the point im trying to make is rebranded/generic parts are of less quality. That's it.)

2.) Notice the differences in the clutter of wiring/driver placement between the models, that was very noticeable..

3.) Notice the total amount of fins over the heatsinks (Apollo's squares vs. the SGS' vs. the 200's lip that extends outside the bottom of the light for extra cooling from outside/ambient air temps)

4.) The upgradeable option on the SGS, pcbs are not wired directly to the drivers (like Apollo or AT), they are wired to a designated "transfer" pcb, then to the drivers, for easy swaps, both LEDs' pcbs and drivers. Very clever.

5.) The adjustable feature on the Meanwell drivers, need to ask GG how to adjust them accordingly

6.) How easy/hard it is to disassemble or reassemble each, those SGS heatsinks BARELY fit inside the casing, whereas the AT I could literally break down in to separate components.

7+) and whatever else another perspective may see!

Alright, pictures.

The Apollo

The SGS-160

The AT200 (da'tank)

AT continued... (10 pic limit)

Annnnd the lighting comparisons (I kept the settings the same on the camera and forgot to take "with red" pics of the SGS in the Flower Cab so these will do.






(3rd pic is just XPGs on the SGS, 4th is with reds)

Saweetah!

Gotta think that that one piece A200 heatsink is the most consistent cooling of the lot...

Thanx Scotch, awesome post. Is anyone else surprised the AT is running Constant Voltage, (which I think is what is confusing you Scotch),? Or that they use an off the shelf driver? I mean it's still a good driver, close to 90%, but for some reason I always assumed they used their own designed driver. And an interesting driver on the A51. I wonder if their driver was designed for them or did they come up with it? Efficiency rating?

Again great post and makes me want to open my Hans. Also Scotch I hope everyone is doing well, but why the heck you buyin' panels when you have a flippin' workshop ? And where's your tatoos? Your arms all naked in those pix. Disgusting! .

great thread... thanks for taking the time..

Really surprised to see A51'S drivers too.

they might be customs but look generic to me

Thanks brotha, thats like, 1000s of dollars u just took apart lol.
Are u not worried about upgrades?
Correct me if im wrong but is the area51 the only one that can be upgraded by them?
I think you might of voided that unless u pay of course..

Abiqua said:

Saweetah!

Gotta think that that one piece A200 heatsink is the most consistent cooling of the lot...

Click to expand...

Yessir, those fins are thick as fuck too, probably 3/8" vs. 1/8" vs. 1/16"

Ive always wondered about vertical orientations of the fans too, I think me Flux has his DIY arranges that way.

FranJan said:

Thanx Scotch, awesome post. Is anyone else surprised the AT is running Constant Voltage, (which I think is what is confusing you Scotch),? Or that they use an off the shelf driver? I mean it's still a good driver, close to 90%, but for some reason I always assumed they used their own designed driver. And an interesting driver on the A51. I wonder if their driver was designed for them or did they come up with it? Efficiency rating?

Again great post and makes me want to open my Hans. Also Scotch I hope everyone is doing well, but why the heck you buyin' panels when you have a flippin' workshop ? And where's your tatoos? Your arms all naked in those pix. Disgusting! .

Click to expand...

Fran you freakin psusy, good points about 51s drivers, I'm not sure, I'm ASSUMING they just got in touch with their vendor and asked if they had the right range to keep costs down. You should see my "workbench" no space to do shiiiit. Need to get out there and clean up kaizen style. Tattoo wise I have two that are always covered with clothing, lets face it- it's the superficial first impressions in a job interview that can land you the opp or your life. Even if running a grow shop/dispensary is my dream job, we all need income to thrive!

foreverflyhi said:

Thanks brotha, thats like, 1000s of dollars u just took apart lol.
Are u not worried about upgrades?
Correct me if im wrong but is the area51 the only one that can be upgraded by them?
I think you might of voided that unless u pay of course..

Click to expand...

Lol yea it's a chunk of change, I scored deals on all of the panels. Saved about 500 bucks altogether but not too worried about upgrades. Either way I know we were going to have to pay for the new drivers/boards for the 51s no matter what, but after squaring things away with Jeff about the XPE/xpe2s we shot the shit about the new series and frankly- the upgrades aren't going I mean shit come Fall. Their keeping the CWs and XPEs (for now) and the XTEs for their all white spectrum, and the CWs for their veg spectrum panels, BUT the big difference is coming with the new body style. Slennnnder and daisy "chainable" for higher total draw to suit the covered area accordingly. Alright, I've said enough.

Abiqua said:

Saweetah!

Gotta think that that one piece A200 heatsink is the most consistent cooling of the lot...

Click to expand...

2 reasons come to my widdle mind. 1 is to maintain consistency of output in many different temp conditions, which is the kind of quality you should get from Apache and 2 because you probably need a butt-load of cooling with CV. Gotta keep that voltage steady as heat rises or you better have some kind of protection against rising current because as heat goes up, voltage down, current rises. Right? But whatever I'm still speculating since brother GG707 hasn't chimed in.

Good info thnx Scotch! So the Onyx Bloom and the Apache both use constant voltage. If the AC DC driver is 90% efficient, there is another 5% or so lost in the board itself where it switches to constant current if I understand correctly?

Onyx insides thanks to digimigi

^^^Wait a sec, I'm confused, (there's a shocker). The A51 doesn't use constant voltage, those are CC drivers but are they selectable or switchable or programmable, that's what I'm wondering.The APACHE TECH is CV. That's why it's outputting 4+ Amps at 20 V. Or am I smoking waaaay too much lately?

And with CV is it you're running at the one voltage and you have to have the max mA of each diode or the diodes will divide the amperage amongst themselves, providing they can handle the minimum amperage offered?

Sorry FJ, typo. I mean the Onyx and Apache both use CV.

From what I understand it is easier to use CV if all the LEDs are nearly identical. Even so, unless you switch to constant current at some point in the circuit, the current in each LED can vary quite a lot depending on the native vF of each LED. So when it comes down to it, LED strings are just better matched with constant current IMO.

It looks like the Onyx uses constant voltage and then switches to constant current on the actual board, once it is DC. Basically built in buck pucks? Or maybe they are just for balancing the strings? I suspect that method is less efficient than the 90-94% constant current drivers we have access to because you may lose 10-15% in the conversion from AC to DC and then another 5% converting from CV to CC and that heat is dissipated directly into the LED board.

FranJan said:

^^^Wait a sec, I'm confused, (there's a shocker). The A51 doesn't use constant voltage, those are CC drivers but are they selectable or switchable or programmable, that's what I'm wondering.

Click to expand...

I can confirm that the Area 51 drivers are adjustable, I found out my XGS was only pulling 165 watts and Jeff told me they weren't adjusted properly at assembly.

Thanks Cap. So you can mess around a bit with A51 drivers.
And thanks for reminding all of us that CREE bulbs are CV too.

SupraSPL said:

Sorry FJ, typo. I mean the Onyx and Apache both use CV.

From what I understand it is easier to use CV if all the LEDs are nearly identical. Even so, unless you switch to constant current at some point in the circuit, the current in each LED can vary quite a lot depending on the native vF of each LED. So when it comes down to it, LED strings are just better matched with constant current IMO.

It looks like the Onyx uses constant voltage and then switches to constant current on the actual board, once it is DC. Basically built in buck pucks? Or maybe they are just for balancing the strings? I suspect that method is less efficient than the 90-94% constant current drivers we have access to because you may lose 10-15% in the conversion from AC to DC and then another 5% converting from CV to CC and that heat is dissipated directly into the LED board.

Click to expand...

Yup buck pucks can kill your efficiciency quite a bit from what I understand but I'm no builder so there must be a good use for them but to me they were just an extra step where ones efficiency goes to shit.

is that a 12v wall wart powering those fans in the at200?