The Great Mycorrhizae Myth

newgrow16

Well-Known Member
Then down the coast and ferry ride to Fedje where my father lived first three years of his life, tossed some ashes there.

Tried the mycos extreme but to noob to know if it helps, read Elaine Ingahm books, she mentioned problems with too much phosphorus additives multiple times related to fungus.
 

Autofire

Well-Known Member
Hey I know this thread is a few years old. But I was debating which one of these two to buy. The great white is way more expensive, is it better than mykos? Or maybe you want to recommend another one? Thanks :)
I'm glad you did bring it back up mate. The OP posted some very in depth information. Think I'll quit using Myco next grow and see what happens
 

DCcan

Well-Known Member
Hey I know this thread is a few years old. But I was debating which one of these two to buy. The great white is way more expensive, is it better than mykos? Or maybe you want to recommend another one? Thanks :)
I'm glad you did bring it back up mate. The OP posted some very in depth information. Think I'll quit using Myco next grow and see what happens
That was ten years ago, try reading something more current.


 

Scuzzman

Well-Known Member
at least someone is using the search function - just learnt a couple of things - I dont use these products as very hard to get- I have in the past used a product called Mycro Hort as its infused to 1-4 mm pumice balls instead of perlite which is made here in NZ , not found any difference in growth or root structure ... there's a lot of stuff out that's not needed to grow weed but Chinese whispers and bro science make it so..
 

Autofire

Well-Known Member
at least someone is using the search function - just learnt a couple of things - I dont use these products as very hard to get- I have in the past used a product called Mycro Hort as its infused to 1-4 mm pumice balls instead of perlite which is made here in NZ , not found any difference in growth or root structure ... there's a lot of stuff out that's not needed to grow weed but Chinese whispers and bro science make it so..
Ain't that the truth. And most of the time when you hear a grower tell you that it made a difference it's more placebo than anything else.
 

DCcan

Well-Known Member
none of those studies were done on hydroponic cannabis
I suggested reading for comprehension of what interactions occur between those organisms and plants.
Instead of a post ten years ago on science that is even older.

Sometimes they use a scraggly little weed as a model plant, works on 95% of plant life that we grow
Same thing you put on pot plants, goes into Indian rice studies or Jordanian hydro tomatoes, it doesn't say cannabis.
 

UpstateRecGrower

Well-Known Member
Hey I know this thread is a few years old. But I was debating which one of these two to buy. The great white is way more expensive, is it better than mykos? Or maybe you want to recommend another one? Thanks :)
Great white has over 700 times the amount of mycos in it per gram than the stuff from extreme gardening..
 

DCcan

Well-Known Member
Best thing to do is pre- inoculate at germination, triggers JA response early and they become endemic in the cells.
 
I've been trying to learn as much as I can about mycorrhizae lately and I'm not sure if this matters in the discussion but one thing in the OP is

Mycorrhizal inoculation response disappeared beyond soil P levels of 25 ppm in Acacia nilotica and 30 ppm in Albizzia lebbeck. Levels of soil P greater than 25 ppm suppressed AM fungus colonization in both species. Soil P levels of 30 and 40 ppm caused negative mycorrhizal dependencies (MD) in Acacia nilotica and Albizzia lebbeck respectively."
I swear I ran across an abstract of a study that had something like this in it but I couldn't access the full document. Anyway, another thing I ran across stated that when the available (soluble) phosphorus levels in the soil were high that mycorrhizae won't colonize as aggressively, but this is at the direction of the plant. I guess the plant says "hey I can get the P by myself right now. you can chill."

In this paper (PDF Link) they state:

With high levels of phosphorus in the soil (above 100 parts per million) in a form that plants can use, the roots don’t need help from the mycorrhizal fungi to take up the phosphorus. When levels are less than about 50 parts per million, the fungi play a key role in improving the plant’s ability to take up phosphorus. Thus, heavy fertilization with phosphorus makes the fungi unnecessary to the plant, so the plant has no advantage in helping to help keep the fungi alive.
If I understand that it's not saying that the myco will just die off, but that the plant will instead not do any of that symbiosis stuff where they work together. But the myco can still keep itself alive anyway.

This article is also interesting but I don't see any sourcing:

Oddly, many people have erroneously concluded that phosphate kills mycorrhizal fungi. In fact, there is no killing effect going on here. Instead, in soils having high available phosphate, the host plant apparently opts to restrict fungal colonization. The fungi and their spores are still alive. They are simply experiencing a higher level of restrictions from the host plant. In fact, there is ample evidence to show that the host plant has significant control over when and where mycorrhizal fungi may enter root tissue. Theoretically, under conditions of high available phosphate, the restrictions are increased. So the levels of soluble phosphate in the soil can affect whether the host plant opens the door to the root widely or narrowly. But the mycorrhizal fungi are not killed by phosphates. This misunderstanding has been promoted by various companies who attempt to blend and sell mycorrhizal products with no real grasp of their biology.
I gave the first one I linked a pass on sourcing because it was published by the University of Alaska so I'll assume their studies are legit.

Anyway just from these two things it sounds like if you feed with salts or any other soluble nutes you're probably not getting much of a benefit from mycorrhizae. Am I understanding this correctly?

One thing I am understanding more lately is that all these myco products tell you to use every so many days or weeks but I believe once the colony has established itself you won't need any further inoculations. That's why it's generally suggested to apply these early like in the seedling/clone stage or right before transplant. There are things you can do to hurt and maybe kill that colony but for annuals like cannabis there will be little you can do to completely kill the colony once it's established outside of sterilizing the soil. However, don't hesitate to feed those microbes with something like a friendly molasses.

This culture that we're making in the dirt beneath the plants is not unlike a sourdough starter. It's a colony of microbes. Those microbes have a finite lifespan but they're multiplying at an incredible pace (with the proper environment) so as many die out, many many more are being produced. Just remember to feed it. But of course if you're a company and you're selling a mycorrhizae product are you going to want people to use more or less of it? It's a perfect product for making money actually. You generally need a certain amount of it in order for it to be effective in a reasonable timeframe so there's a minimum baseline people would use, but using too much isn't going to hurt anything until you reach absurd amounts of 'too much'. So yeah on my label I might say to use it with every watering and maybe even say something fancy like "don't be afraid to sprinkle some as a top dress every x days."

Furthermore, unless you're using a sterile dirt or maybe some soilless medium you are probably going to have a certain amount of mycorrhizae in your dirt when you buy it. I think as an example pro-mix amends some in to at least one of their products, probably more. So in this case once you transplant something into this particular mix the myco in there will begin colonizing (because they need a plant to begin this process. roots, to be more specific). You shouldn't need to ever amend with myco during the life of this plant.

I know I rambled a lot but trying to figure out how beneficial amending soils with mycorrhizae throughout a grow is required more reading that I readied myself for but enjoyed learning as much so far.

So as a response to the OP's statement that mycorrhizae isn't really beneficial...in some cases it probably isn't very. Like if you're running full salts there will probably be little benefit to a myco amendment, but probably not nothing. For instance, hydro.

I'd love to discuss this more and be told I didn't understand anything correctly. This was more interesting that I thought or I wouldn't have gone down this rabbit hole. I know I don't have a full grasp of this but I will strive to understand more.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
I like this stuff. It's on par with Great White for half the price:

 

go go kid

Well-Known Member
which one is responsible for stoping the development of other plants species other then the host plant. i read a dinafem??? article that mentions it
 
I like this stuff. It's on par with Great White for half the price:

Those 7 ECM and maybe 2 of the 4 AM aren't providing any benefit at all to cannabis plants. You can probably spend less on a different product and end up with the same results of your focus is cannabis.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Those 7 ECM and maybe 2 of the 4 AM aren't providing any benefit at all to cannabis plants. You can probably spend less on a different product and end up with the same results of your focus is cannabis.
"Probably"? LOL, that's easy to say without bothering to post an alternate option. It's actually pretty inexpensive comparably speaking, and the roots that shoot out as a result of using it speak for themselves. I do also grow plants other than cannabis. Feel free to provide a link to what you think is a better value.
 

go go kid

Well-Known Member
NowI won't be able to sleep!! I'll be lying awake trying to think of a way to work "invagination" into a conversation at the next coctail party
you could try bringing The sculpture of the sleeping Hermaphrodite in the Palazzo Massimo in Rome into conversation :D
 
"Probably"? LOL, that's easy to say without bothering to post an alternate option. It's actually pretty inexpensive comparably speaking, and the roots that shoot out as a result of using it speak for themselves. I do also grow plants other than cannabis. Feel free to provide a link to what you think is a better value.
Mykos would be an example I think. On Amazon GW is like $8/oz if you buy the 8 oz container and Mykos is $0.72/oz


The thing about ectomycorrhizae, which GW includes 7 different varieties of, is that they have absolutely zero beneficial effects on flowering and fruiting plants. I think it's mostly trees that they infect.


But it still has 2 of the mycos that are indeed proven to be beneficial to cannabis, Glomus intraradices and Glomus mosseae, so it's not like it's useless. I mean over a decade of growers using it means something. But it's always been known as an all in one and cannabis growers flocked to it probably because it was one of few options available early on that was consistent.

I wasn't trying to be critical at all. Please accept my apology if I came off that way. I still have a lot to learn. GW is a great product but maybe a little too much for cannabis. I have some sitting on a shelf currently but I do think a more tailored product that is also cheaper is something worth looking in to.

As well some potting mixes have myco added so in some cases adding a myco is entirely unnecessary unless you need that infection to happen sooner.
 
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UpstateRecGrower

Well-Known Member
"Probably"? LOL, that's easy to say without bothering to post an alternate option. It's actually pretty inexpensive comparably speaking, and the roots that shoot out as a result of using it speak for themselves. I do also grow plants other than cannabis. Feel free to provide a link to what you think is a better value.
Dynomyco is probably the best thing out right now for cannabis plants. There's only 4 species of Myco's that benefit Cannabis and Dynomyco has 900 prop per gram (combined) of 2 of them (glomus intraradices and glomus mosseae). Pretty affordable too at 52$ for 750 grams. Great white only has 83 props of each but it has a lot of the bacteria, but still its pretty pricey, you can get your bacteria from Extreme Gardening Azos or Growers Recharge. I like the Recharge because it has a little molasses to feed the microbes..
 
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