The far red thread

[420masterofdon]

Rapidled far red puck:

View attachment 4216766

View attachment 4216767

Fiddy bucks

wonderbar brother!!!
Mine JUST arrived today.
How are you going to be using it?

I have a 2.5x2.5 and I think I'll just be doing 2 minutes right after lights out. I have my WEMO programmed already, tested and the interval works beauty.
I think by just doing 2 mins at lights out I'm not benefiting from Emersons effect though I could be wrong.

 

[Or_Gro]

wonderbar brother!!!
Mine JUST arrived today.
How are you going to be using it?

I have a 2.5x2.5 and I think I'll just be doing 2 minutes right after lights out. I have my WEMO programmed already, tested and the interval works beauty.
I think by just doing 2 mins at lights out I'm not benefiting from Emersons effect though I could be wrong.

Lightsout use is not emerson, it’s initiator effect...anyway, theoretically 2 mins is fine. My concern is that it in reality it may take diodes a while longer to be at 100% output, so I’d go 5-15 mins total, extra few mins wont hurt your plants or electric bill.

I will be using these pucks to supplement hlg’s new 96 v2 elites which have supplemental red & deep red)... basically 1 to 2 pucks per 96, after stretch: 12hrs (full lightson for emerson) plus first 15 mins of lights out (for initiator)

 

[420masterofdon]

Lightsout use is not emerson, it’s initiator effect...anyway, theoretically 2 mins is fine. My concern is that it in reality it may take diodes a while longer to be at 100% output, so I’d go 5-15 mins total, extra few mins wont hurt your plants or electric bill.

I will be using these pucks to supplement hlg’s new 96 v2 elites which have supplemental red & deep red)... basically 1 to 2 pucks per 96, after stretch: 12hrs (full lightson for emerson) plus first 15 mins of lights out (for initiator)

Man
I want to do the emerson effect badly but since I'm only growing one big huge plant I don't know that I want to risk it experimenting . I'm scrogging so stretching would be really unwanted. I would be pairing it with 4k color cobs (6x @ 50w each)and a mars 300(120w) that supplements with more reds and blus.

Growmau instructions do say 15 mins... I just figured lowering the time because of all the comments grow kangs like Randomblame and CaptainMorgan were bringing up and keeping it to very low times to avoid stretching.

 

[Or_Gro]

Man
I want to do the emerson effect badly but since I'm only growing one big huge plant I don't know that I want to risk it experimenting . I'm scrogging so stretching would be really unwanted. I would be pairing it with 4k color cobs (6x @ 50w each)and a mars 300(120w) that supplements with more reds and blus.

Growmau instructions do say 15 mins... I just figured lowering the time because of all the comments grow kangs like Randomblame and CaptainMorgan were bringing up and keeping it to very low times to avoid stretching.

We all gotta do what we’re comfortabke with, but if you’re past stretch they are in repro mode, stretch is a lot less of a concern...

 

[Randomblame]

what area is that puck good for covering?

@Randomblame probably can give you a good answer based on the numbers, i’d go with 2 pucks in a 4x4 for initiator effect.

For emerson effect, you use it in combo with red and deep red, so it depends on ratio of those two to far red. I’m running qb 35s which have 8 red, 6 deep red, 4 far red diodes per strip. I’d run in these proportions unless you have better info.

4 far red XPEs need ~8,5v at 700mA and calculated with 40% system efficiency one puk should have 14-15μMol/s/m².
One can use them in small areas or in bigger areas to put the plants into sleep mode. 5 minutes above 1m² would be ~4000μMol, 2,5 minutes are enough if you have 0,5m² and 7,5 minutes would be needed for 1,5m². It needs only 2000-4000μMol total to put the plants into sleep mode and you only need to figure out how many seconds it needs to get that small amount in your area. One puk per 4x 4' area would work but would need a little more distance or the lenses to get good even coverage.

The far-red strips are much better IMO. Cheaper, more powerful and better distribution and one can use them to supplement far-red during the day. It would need one puk per 2x 2' area to do this properly.

 

[Randomblame]

Lightsout use is not emerson, it’s initiator effect...anyway, theoretically 2 mins is fine. My concern is that it in reality it may take diodes a while longer to be at 100% output, so I’d go 5-15 mins total, extra few mins wont hurt your plants or electric bill.

I will be using these pucks to supplement hlg’s new 96 v2 elites which have supplemental red & deep red)... basically 1 to 2 pucks per 96, after stretch: 12hrs (full lightson for emerson) plus first 15 mins of lights out (for initiator)

Nope, you get 100% far-red in the moment you switch the lights on. They need no warm up phase like T5 bulbs or far-red radiators. Indeed its a bit less when they getting warmer, at 55°C its around 6% less and at 85°C around 14% compared to 25°C when switched on. With 105°C Tc. you would get only around 80%!
Its the same like with all LEDs, 100% output within a few milliseconds and only 80-95% output depending on stabilized case temps.

 

[Or_Gro]

Nope, you get 100% far-red in the moment you switch the lights on. They need no warm up phase like T5 bulbs or far-red radiators. Indeed its a bit less when they getting warmer, at 55°C its around 6% less and at 85°C around 14% compared to 25°C when switched on. With 105°C Tc. you would get only around 80%!
Its the same like with all LEDs, 100% output within a few milliseconds and only 80-95% output depending on stabilized case temps.

Thanks man, good to know. So what is reason for 15 min recommendation? And, what is likelihood of measurable stretch 2 mins vs 15, after plant has gone thru stretch phase?

 

[Or_Gro]

4 far red XPEs need ~8,5v at 700mA and calculated with 40% system efficiency one puk should have 14-15μMol/s/m².
One can use them in small areas or in bigger areas to put the plants into sleep mode. 5 minutes above 1m² would be ~4000μMol, 2,5 minutes are enough if you have 0,5m² and 7,5 minutes would be needed for 1,5m². It needs only 2000-4000μMol total to put the plants into sleep mode and you only need to figure out how many seconds it needs to get that small amount in your area. One puk per 4x 4' area would work but would need a little more distance or the lenses to get good even coverage.

The far-red strips are much better IMO. Cheaper, more powerful and better distribution and one can use them to supplement far-red during the day. It would need one puk per 2x 2' area to do this properly.

Thx, so two pucks for a 4x4 to get sufficient coverage for both emerson (assuming proper ratio to other reds) and initiator effects.

 

[Randomblame]

Thanks man, good to know. So what is reason for 15 min recommendation? And, what is likelihood of measurable stretch 2 mins vs 15, after plant has gone thru stretch phase?

I don't know the 15 mins recommendation, from what I know 2000-4000μMol is recommend for EoD treatment. One need to know how much far-red his light puts out per second and figure out how much seconds it need to get there.
Such puks have 14-15μMol/s PPF.
First you convert this to your own area (with a 4x 4' or 1,44m² area it would be ~ 10μmol / s / m²(15μMol : 1,44m² = 10,4μMol/s/m²) and then you can multiply it until you have reached the desired value. 200sec for 2000μmol, 300 for 3000 or 400sec for 4000μmol.
With a smaller tent it takes less time.
A 2x 2' only has 0,36m², 15μMol divided by 0,36m² = ~40μMol/s/m² and it needs only 50-100seconds to get the desired 2000-4000μMol.

And when the stretch is done there is no additional stretch when using far-red. Maybe the flowers are not that dense when its too much far-red (like with hps) but I don't think so.
From what I have seen one get only significant more stretch when use it either from the beginning or when they get too much from far-red EoD treatment.

 

[Randomblame]

Thx, so two pucks for a 4x4 to get sufficient coverage for both emerson (assuming proper ratio to other reds) and initiator effects.

Two puks in a 4x 4' area would add only around 20μMol/s/m². The guys it the science paper about far-red have use up to 90μMol/s/m² with good results. But 90 could be too much for cannabis. Such a strip would be probably better or you need more puks. 4 of them maybe to get ~40μMol/s/m² far-red? But in this case a far-red strip would be already cheaper.

 

[OLD MOTHER SATIVA]

4 far red XPEs need ~8,5v at 700mA and calculated with 40% system efficiency one puk should have 14-15μMol/s/m².
One can use them in small areas or in bigger areas to put the plants into sleep mode. 5 minutes above 1m² would be ~4000μMol, 2,5 minutes are enough if you have 0,5m² and 7,5 minutes would be needed for 1,5m². It needs only 2000-4000μMol total to put the plants into sleep mode and you only need to figure out how many seconds it needs to get that small amount in your area. One puk per 4x 4' area would work but would need a little more distance or the lenses to get good even coverage.

The far-red strips are much better IMO. Cheaper, more powerful and better distribution and one can use them to supplement far-red during the day. It would need one puk per 2x 2' area to do this properly.

i want to get red strips made to test the emerson effect and added reds..
do you know what i need for that?
i use 4 x 4 grids with home made panels in a frame..i may go 2ft for the strips

 

[Or_Gro]

I don't know the 15 mins recommendation, from what I know 2000-4000μMol is recommend for EoD treatment. One need to know how much far-red his light puts out per second and figure out how much seconds it need to get there.
Such puks have 14-15μMol/s PPF.
First you convert this to your own area (with a 4x 4' or 1,44m² area it would be ~ 10μmol / s / m²(15μMol : 1,44m² = 10,4μMol/s/m²) and then you can multiply it until you have reached the desired value. 200sec for 2000μmol, 300 for 3000 or 400sec for 4000μmol.
With a smaller tent it takes less time.
A 2x 2' only has 0,36m², 15μMol divided by 0,36m² = ~40μMol/s/m² and it needs only 50-100seconds to get the desired 2000-4000μMol.

And when the stretch is done there is no additional stretch when using far-red. Maybe the flowers are not that dense when its too much far-red (like with hps) but I don't think so.
From what I have seen one get only significant more stretch when use it either from the beginning or when they get too much from far-red from EoD treatment.

Thanks RB

 

[Or_Gro]

Two puks in a 4x 4' area would add only around 20μMol/s/m². The guys it the science paper about far-red have use up to 90μMol/s/m² with good results. But 90 could be too much for cannabis. Such a strip would be probably better or you need more puks. 4 of them maybe to get ~40μMol/s/m² far-red? But in this case a far-red strip would be already cheaper.

Thanks RB

 

[Or_Gro]

i want to get red strips made to test the emerson effect and added reds..
do you know what i need for that?
i use 4 x 4 grids with home made panels in a frame..i may go 2ft for the strips

Have you considered these?
https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/products/hlg-35

They also offer just the bd, qb18.

 

[Or_Gro]

Have you considered these?
https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/products/hlg-35

They also offer just the bd, qb18.

Rapidled has similar strip.

 

[420masterofdon]

Holy damn RB's replies.. Thank you my dude!!

 

[Or_Gro]

For those interested in data on hlg’s new qb96 V2 elite, there are a couple threads going over on gc, but here is the one we are trying to keep just for data:

https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/qb96elite-v2-no-bs-information-only.1521830/

 

[Randomblame]

i want to get red strips made to test the emerson effect and added reds..
do you know what i need for that?
i use 4 x 4 grids with home made panels in a frame..i may go 2ft for the strips

For emerson effect it needs two wavelength close to 680nm(PS-I) and 700nm(PS-II). The best available combi is Cree's XP-E deep red, group P5, 670nm and XP-E far-red, group F2, 720nm.
Rapidled or digikey should have them sorted by color groups. I would email them!
But you can also use 660 and 730nm with success but the effect is the strongest with 680 and 700nm.

 

[420masterofdon]

For emerson effect it needs two wavelength close to 680nm(PS-I) and 700nm(PS-II). The best available combi is Cree's XP-E deep red, group P5, 670nm and XP-E far-red, group F2, 720nm.
Rapidled or digikey should have them sorted by color groups. I would email them!
But you can also use 660 and 730nm with success but the effect is the strongest with 680 and 700nm.

This is why I figure I should be OK in my 2.5x2.5 tent with 6 cobs and a mars 300 (red blu) PLUS the rapidled far red puck on 12 hs along with the other lights.
The Mars 300 will cover the supplemental red with 620~630nm, 650~670nm bands and paired with the far red puck hopefully I'll get that emerson I'm looking for!

I'm a week into flower. One more week and I think I'll put the puck to work once the stretch is over.

 

[Randomblame]

This is why I figure I should be OK in my 2.5x2.5 tent with 6 cobs and a mars 300 (red blu) PLUS the rapidled far red puck on 12 hs along with the other lights.
The Mars 300 will cover the supplemental red with 620~630nm, 650~670nm bands and paired with the far red puck hopefully I'll get that emerson I'm looking for!

I'm a week into flower. One more week and I think I'll put the puck to work once the stretch is over.

You'll probably not recognize anything different with the first try, brother! You'd have to know the strain from in and outside and know exactly how it behaves without far-red which is honestly pretty tough.
What you can see is a little more stretch caused from EoD treatment and a reduced flowering stage which means the plants finish 5-10 days faster.
The 6 COBs will make a huge difference compared to the mars light alone and 6 COBs + the true 180w blurple is already a lot of light and the emerson effect gets weaker with higher intensities. With 400-500μMol/s/m² the effect would be pretty strong but with 1500μMol/s/m² there would be no measurable difference. But you still benefit from other far-red effects like slightly increase leaf temps and more efficient photosyntesis.
From my POV all these effects play a role when it comes to the emerson effect.