The ECONOMICS of Health Care (PART1)

CrackerJax

New Member
Okay, I will be starting this thread and it will be one of 9 threads. each one will illuminate the mechanics and actual economics of the political football called Govt. health care.

This is written by a RAZOR SHARP economist and one of the great thinkers in the USA today.... Thomas Sowell. Here's a bit of background on Mr. Sowell first.

========================================================
The Economics of Medical Care


Readers of Thomas Sowell's columns in IBD don't have to be told why he is considered one of America's greatest thinkers — maybe the greatest.
Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright David Mamet has called him "our greatest contemporary philosopher," an opinion that British historian Paul Johnson shares in his book "A History of the American People."
Besides his weekly newspaper column, Sowell has written 43 books — 10 in the last five years — two monographs, 87 articles in periodicals and books, and 33 book reviews.
His latest two books, The Housing Boom and Bust and Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One, came out this year. The latter, subtitled "Thinking Beyond Stage One," is one of six he has written on economics.
Dr. Sowell has granted IBD permission to run one of the chapters of Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One — The Economics of Medical Care — in its entirety. We are doing so because of its relevance to the debate over health care reform. The chapter will run in nine parts over the next week and a half.





About Dr. Thomas Sowell
Thomas Sowell is an economist, political writer, and commentator.
Sowell was born in North Carolina in 1930 and reared in Harlem. After dropping out of high school, he was drafted into the military and served in the Marines during the Korean War.
During his 20s, when he was a self-described Marxist, he attended and graduated magna cum laude from Harvard with a B.A. in economics. He also has a master's in economics from Columbia and a Ph.D. in economics from the University of Chicago.
He has taught at Howard University, Cornell, Brandeis, Amherst and UCLA, and is now the Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow on Public Policy at Stanford's Hoover institution.

===============================================================

As you can see, Sowell is one sharp tack and prolific writer and thinker.... so let's get to part ONE.

If you decide this is too much to read, then perhaps you shouldn't post about health care and should stick to simpler ideas. This one is complex and not all will be up to the task. realize this before posting inanity.
Read it twice if you have to .. it's important to be truly informed on the numbers, instead of the political rhetoric.


===============================================================


Okay, on to Part One..... The QUALITY of Govt. Health care.


================================================================




Thomas Sowell On Economics Of Medical Care

The high cost of medical care has been a recurrent theme in countries around the world. In the United States, medical expenses absorb about one-sixth of the total annual output of the economy.
Medical care is one of many goods and services that can be provided in a wide variety of ways. At one time, it was common for sick people simply to pay doctors and buy medicine individually with their own money.
Today, both the medicines and the medical care are often paid for by third parties through either political or market institutions — that is, either by insurance companies or government agencies, or both, with or without some portion being paid by the individual patient.
Only 13% of Americans' medical care costs are paid for directly out of pocket, with 35% being paid by private health insurance, 17% by Medicare, and the rest from various other sources.
In some cases, medicines and medical care have both been provided by government at no charge to the patient in Canada and some other countries, as they once were in China under Mao Zedong and in the Soviet Union under Stalin.
Other countries have had, and some continue to have, various mixtures of government payment and private payment, with varying elements of voluntary choice by patients and physicians.
Since governments get the resources used for medical care by taking those resources from the general population through taxation, there is no net reduction in the cost of maintaining health or curing sicknesses simply because the money is routed through political institutions and government bureaucracies, rather than being paid directly by patients to doctors. (this alone defeats Obama assertion that $$ will be saved .. CJ)
Clearly, however, the widespread popularity of government-financed medical care systems means that many people expect some net benefit from this process. One reason is that governments typically do not simply pay whatever medical costs happen to be, as determined by supply and demand.
Governments impose price controls in order to try to keep the costs of medical care from absorbing so much of their budgets as to seriously restrict other government functions. Government-paid medical care is thus often an exercise in price control, and it creates situations that have been common for centuries in response to price controls on many other goods and services.
One of the reasons for the political popularity of price controls in general is that part of their costs are concealed — or, at least, are not visible initially when such laws are passed. Price controls are therefore particularly appealing to those who do not think beyond stage one — which can easily be a majority of the voters.
Artificially lower prices, created by government order rather than by supply and demand, encourage more use of goods or services, while discouraging the production of those same goods and services. Increased consumption and reduced production mean a shortage. The consequences are both quantitative and qualitative.
Even the visible shortages that follow price controls do not tell the whole story. Quality deterioration often accompanies reduced production under price control, whether what is being produced is food, housing, or numerous other goods and services whose prices have been kept artificially low by government fiat.
Quality declines because the incentives to maintaining quality are lessened by price control. Sellers in general maintain the quality of their products or services for fear of losing customers otherwise.
But, when price controls create a situation where the amount demanded is greater than the amount supplied — a shortage — fear of losing customers is no longer as strong an incentive.
For example, landlords typically reduce painting and repairs when there is rent control, because there is no need to fear vacancies when there are more tenants looking for apartments than there are apartments available.
Nowhere has quality deterioration been more apparent — or more dangerous — than with price controls on medical care.
One way in which the quality of medical care deteriorates is in the amount of time that a doctor spends with a patient. This was most dramatically demonstrated back in the days of the Soviet Union, which had the most completely government-controlled medical system:
At the neighborhood clinics where 80% of all patients are treated, the norms call for physicians to see eight patients an hour. That is 7.5 minutes per visit, and Soviet studies show that five minutes of each visit is spent on paper work, a task complicated by chronic short supplies of preprinted forms and the absence of computers.
"Our heads spin from rushing," said Pavel, the silver-haired chief of traumatology at a Moscow clinic, who, like some other Russians interviewed for a 1987 article in the Wall Street Journal, won't give his last name.
A dozen patients with splints and slings sit in a dark corridor awaiting their turn at a 1950s-vintage fluoroscope. "We wind up seeing the same patients several times over," the doctor goes on, "when one thorough examination could have solved the problem if we had the time."
Although the Soviet Union was an extreme example, similar policies have tended to produce similar results in other countries. Under government-paid medical care in Japan, patients also have shorter and more numerous visits than patients in the United States.
Under a Korean medical care system copied from Japan, a study found that "even injections of drugs were often split in half to make two visits necessary," because "the doctor can charge for two office visits and two injection fees."
After Canada's Quebec province created its own government health plan back in the 1970s, telephone consultations went down, office visits went up and the time per visit went down.
In other words, medical conditions which neither the doctor nor the patient previously thought serious enough to require an office visit, before price controls, now took up more time by both the patient (in travel time) and the doctor (in the office), thereby reducing the time available to people who had more serious conditions.
In general, where the doctor is paid per patient visit, then a series of treatments that might have taken five visits to the doctor's office can now take 10 shorter visits -- or more. Therefore political leaders can proclaim that price controls have succeeded because the cost per visit is now lower than it was in a free market, even though the total costs of treating a given illness have not declined and — typically — have risen.
Skyrocketing costs, far beyond anything projected at the outset, have marked government-controlled medical care systems in France, Britain, Canada and elsewhere. Responses to such runaway costs have included abbreviated doctors' visits and hospital stays cut short.
The costs in Britain's government-run medical system have increased sharply, both absolutely and as a percentage of the country's rising Gross Domestic Product. The National Health Service in Britain absorbed just under 4% of the country's GDP in 1960 and rose over the years until it absorbed 7% of a larger GDP by 2000.
Nevertheless, the number of doctors per capita in Britain was just half as many as in Germany, where half the hospital beds were still in private hands, despite a large role for government financing there.

Quality deterioration has many aspects. According to the British magazine The Economist, "patients in other rich countries can get prompt treatment with state-of-the-art medical technologies in clean rather than dirty wards."
Apparently not in Britain, where quality deterioration is part of the hidden cost that does not show up in statistics.
Britain's Healthcare Commission "painted a bleak picture of teeming wards where overworked nurses didn't even help patients to the bathroom," according to the Christian Science Monitor, which also noted that the country's Health Secretary "was forced to apologize in Parliament this week after it emerged that at least 90 patients in southeast England died as a result of infections picked up in the hospital."
Britain has one of the oldest government-run medical care systems in the world, so it is far beyond stage one in the emergence over time of the qualitative problems associated with price controls in other contexts.
Its medical care bureaucracy has also had time to become more bureaucratic, including job protection for hospital staff members to the point where it is hard to force any employee to do the work properly — in a situation where not doing the job right can entail pain, infection or death to patients.
The British newspaper the Daily Mail reported on some of the reasons behind the widely complained of lack of cleanliness in British hospitals:
Unlike the "modern matron," her old-style predecessor exercised control over every nurse, cleaner and porter and she knew every patient under her care — because she understood that it was her care they were under and for which she was accountable.
She ran her wards like a military exercise. Today, that is impossible because nurses find that approach anachronistic and unacceptable. The result is sloppiness, a culture of excuses, gross dereliction of managerial duty and patient infection.
Another British newspaper, the Evening Standard, reported on the manager of the emergency treatment department in a London hospital:
She spent only one fifth of her time with her patients. Cleaning and maintenance took up most of her energy, to very little effect. Despite all the meetings, she had no authority over her cleaner. If a patient vomited in the waiting room, she had to clean it up because the cleaner refused to touch it.

Among the other common characteristics of bureaucracy that are especially harmful in a medical setting are ever growing numbers of meetings and ever growing paperwork requirements, leaving patients waiting while their doctors and nurses perform bureaucratic chores and rituals.
Another symptom of bureaucracy is pompous language, the country's Chief Medical Officer citing as a factor in the dangerous dirtiness of British hospitals a "paucity of hand hygiene agents" — that is, not enough soap and water. Such bureaucratic behavior is not simply irrational.
Paperwork, meetings, the hiring of more bureaucrats and the appointment of committees and task forces all provide protective cover for the authorities if critics accuse them of not knowing about problems or not doing anything about them.While such things help protect the careers of medical care bureaucrats, the time and resources they use up tend to reduce the care of patients.
The United States is at the other end of the spectrum in terms of government control of medical care. Some fault medical care in the United States for an average American life expectancy that is exceeded in a number of other countries.
However, medical care is not the same as health care, even though the two are often equated. Many things that shorten human life — including homicide, drug overdoses and obesity — are more a result of individual choices rather than the state of medical care.
There is relatively little that doctors can do about such things, which tend to be worse in the United States than in some other Western countries.
When international comparisons of medical care, as such, are made, the United States usually ranks higher than countries with government-run medical systems on such things as waiting times to see primary care physicians, waiting times to see specialists or have surgery, and cancer survival rates.
A study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development found that 23% of the patients having elective surgery in 2001 in Australia waited more than 4 months for that surgery. So did 26% of the patients in New Zealand, 27% of patients in Canada, and 38% of the patients in Britain. In the United States, only 5% of patients had to wait that long. The conclusion:
Waiting lists for elective surgery generally tend to be found in countries which combine public health insurance, with zero or low patient cost sharing and constraints on surgical capacity. Public health insurance and zero cost sharing remove the financial barriers to access to surgery.
Constraints on capacity prevent supply from matching demand. Under such circumstances, non-price rationing, in the form of waiting times for elective surgery, takes over from price rationing as a means of equilibrating demand and supply.
Elective surgery, incidentally, was not limited to cosmetic procedures but included cataract surgery, hip replacements and coronary artery bypass surgery.
Moreover, although a four-month waiting period was used by the OECD as a benchmark for collecting statistics, in Britain 3,592 patients waited more than six months for a colonoscopy and 55,376 waited more than six months for an audiology diagnosis, according to a report in the British Medical Journal in 2007.
In Canada, according to a provincial government website, 90% of Ontario patients needing hip replacements waited 336 days. In Britain, the wait is a year.
As for technology, a 2007 study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) showed that the number of CT scanners per million population was 7.5 in Britain, 11.2 in Canada and 32.2 in the United States.
For Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) units, there was an average of 5.4 MRIs per million population in Britain, 5.5 per million population in Canada and 26.6 per million population in the United States.

As you can see, the USA has the best medicine in the world and the best doctors and the best equipment.

Okay, I will post part 2 tomorrow.....

The Quantity of Health care.


 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Okay, I will be starting this thread and it will be one of 9 threads. each one will illuminate the mechanics and actual economics of the political football called Govt. health care.

This is written by a RAZOR SHARP economist and one of the great thinkers in the USA today.... Thomas Sowell. Here's a bit of background on Mr. Sowell first.

========================================================
The Economics of Medical Care


Readers of Thomas Sowell's columns in IBD don't have to be told why he is considered one of America's greatest thinkers — maybe the greatest.
Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright David Mamet has called him "our greatest contemporary philosopher," an opinion that British historian Paul Johnson shares in his book "A History of the American People."
Besides his weekly newspaper column, Sowell has written 43 books — 10 in the last five years — two monographs, 87 articles in periodicals and books, and 33 book reviews.
His latest two books, The Housing Boom and Bust and Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One, came out this year. The latter, subtitled "Thinking Beyond Stage One," is one of six he has written on economics.
Dr. Sowell has granted IBD permission to run one of the chapters of Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One — The Economics of Medical Care — in its entirety. We are doing so because of its relevance to the debate over health care reform. The chapter will run in nine parts over the next week and a half.





About Dr. Thomas Sowell
Thomas Sowell is an economist, political writer, and commentator.
Sowell was born in North Carolina in 1930 and reared in Harlem. After dropping out of high school, he was drafted into the military and served in the Marines during the Korean War.
During his 20s, when he was a self-described Marxist, he attended and graduated magna cum laude from Harvard with a B.A. in economics. He also has a master's in economics from Columbia and a Ph.D. in economics from the University of Chicago.
He has taught at Howard University, Cornell, Brandeis, Amherst and UCLA, and is now the Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow on Public Policy at Stanford's Hoover institution.

===============================================================

As you can see, Sowell is one sharp tack and prolific writer and thinker.... so let's get to part ONE.

If you decide this is too much to read, then perhaps you shouldn't post about health care and should stick to simpler ideas. This one is complex and not all will be up to the task. realize this before posting inanity.
Read it twice if you have to .. it's important to be truly informed on the numbers, instead of the political rhetoric.


===============================================================


Okay, on to Part One..... The QUALITY of Govt. Health care.


================================================================




Thomas Sowell On Economics Of Medical Care

The high cost of medical care has been a recurrent theme in countries around the world. In the United States, medical expenses absorb about one-sixth of the total annual output of the economy.
Medical care is one of many goods and services that can be provided in a wide variety of ways. At one time, it was common for sick people simply to pay doctors and buy medicine individually with their own money.
Today, both the medicines and the medical care are often paid for by third parties through either political or market institutions — that is, either by insurance companies or government agencies, or both, with or without some portion being paid by the individual patient.
Only 13% of Americans' medical care costs are paid for directly out of pocket, with 35% being paid by private health insurance, 17% by Medicare, and the rest from various other sources.
In some cases, medicines and medical care have both been provided by government at no charge to the patient in Canada and some other countries, as they once were in China under Mao Zedong and in the Soviet Union under Stalin.
Other countries have had, and some continue to have, various mixtures of government payment and private payment, with varying elements of voluntary choice by patients and physicians.
Since governments get the resources used for medical care by taking those resources from the general population through taxation, there is no net reduction in the cost of maintaining health or curing sicknesses simply because the money is routed through political institutions and government bureaucracies, rather than being paid directly by patients to doctors. (this alone defeats Obama assertion that $$ will be saved .. CJ)
Clearly, however, the widespread popularity of government-financed medical care systems means that many people expect some net benefit from this process. One reason is that governments typically do not simply pay whatever medical costs happen to be, as determined by supply and demand.
Governments impose price controls in order to try to keep the costs of medical care from absorbing so much of their budgets as to seriously restrict other government functions. Government-paid medical care is thus often an exercise in price control, and it creates situations that have been common for centuries in response to price controls on many other goods and services.
One of the reasons for the political popularity of price controls in general is that part of their costs are concealed — or, at least, are not visible initially when such laws are passed. Price controls are therefore particularly appealing to those who do not think beyond stage one — which can easily be a majority of the voters.
Artificially lower prices, created by government order rather than by supply and demand, encourage more use of goods or services, while discouraging the production of those same goods and services. Increased consumption and reduced production mean a shortage. The consequences are both quantitative and qualitative.
Even the visible shortages that follow price controls do not tell the whole story. Quality deterioration often accompanies reduced production under price control, whether what is being produced is food, housing, or numerous other goods and services whose prices have been kept artificially low by government fiat.
Quality declines because the incentives to maintaining quality are lessened by price control. Sellers in general maintain the quality of their products or services for fear of losing customers otherwise.
But, when price controls create a situation where the amount demanded is greater than the amount supplied — a shortage — fear of losing customers is no longer as strong an incentive.
For example, landlords typically reduce painting and repairs when there is rent control, because there is no need to fear vacancies when there are more tenants looking for apartments than there are apartments available.
Nowhere has quality deterioration been more apparent — or more dangerous — than with price controls on medical care.
One way in which the quality of medical care deteriorates is in the amount of time that a doctor spends with a patient. This was most dramatically demonstrated back in the days of the Soviet Union, which had the most completely government-controlled medical system:
At the neighborhood clinics where 80% of all patients are treated, the norms call for physicians to see eight patients an hour. That is 7.5 minutes per visit, and Soviet studies show that five minutes of each visit is spent on paper work, a task complicated by chronic short supplies of preprinted forms and the absence of computers.
"Our heads spin from rushing," said Pavel, the silver-haired chief of traumatology at a Moscow clinic, who, like some other Russians interviewed for a 1987 article in the Wall Street Journal, won't give his last name.
A dozen patients with splints and slings sit in a dark corridor awaiting their turn at a 1950s-vintage fluoroscope. "We wind up seeing the same patients several times over," the doctor goes on, "when one thorough examination could have solved the problem if we had the time."
Although the Soviet Union was an extreme example, similar policies have tended to produce similar results in other countries. Under government-paid medical care in Japan, patients also have shorter and more numerous visits than patients in the United States.
Under a Korean medical care system copied from Japan, a study found that "even injections of drugs were often split in half to make two visits necessary," because "the doctor can charge for two office visits and two injection fees."
After Canada's Quebec province created its own government health plan back in the 1970s, telephone consultations went down, office visits went up and the time per visit went down.
In other words, medical conditions which neither the doctor nor the patient previously thought serious enough to require an office visit, before price controls, now took up more time by both the patient (in travel time) and the doctor (in the office), thereby reducing the time available to people who had more serious conditions.
In general, where the doctor is paid per patient visit, then a series of treatments that might have taken five visits to the doctor's office can now take 10 shorter visits -- or more. Therefore political leaders can proclaim that price controls have succeeded because the cost per visit is now lower than it was in a free market, even though the total costs of treating a given illness have not declined and — typically — have risen.
Skyrocketing costs, far beyond anything projected at the outset, have marked government-controlled medical care systems in France, Britain, Canada and elsewhere. Responses to such runaway costs have included abbreviated doctors' visits and hospital stays cut short.
The costs in Britain's government-run medical system have increased sharply, both absolutely and as a percentage of the country's rising Gross Domestic Product. The National Health Service in Britain absorbed just under 4% of the country's GDP in 1960 and rose over the years until it absorbed 7% of a larger GDP by 2000.
Nevertheless, the number of doctors per capita in Britain was just half as many as in Germany, where half the hospital beds were still in private hands, despite a large role for government financing there.

Quality deterioration has many aspects. According to the British magazine The Economist, "patients in other rich countries can get prompt treatment with state-of-the-art medical technologies in clean rather than dirty wards."
Apparently not in Britain, where quality deterioration is part of the hidden cost that does not show up in statistics.
Britain's Healthcare Commission "painted a bleak picture of teeming wards where overworked nurses didn't even help patients to the bathroom," according to the Christian Science Monitor, which also noted that the country's Health Secretary "was forced to apologize in Parliament this week after it emerged that at least 90 patients in southeast England died as a result of infections picked up in the hospital."
Britain has one of the oldest government-run medical care systems in the world, so it is far beyond stage one in the emergence over time of the qualitative problems associated with price controls in other contexts.
Its medical care bureaucracy has also had time to become more bureaucratic, including job protection for hospital staff members to the point where it is hard to force any employee to do the work properly — in a situation where not doing the job right can entail pain, infection or death to patients.
The British newspaper the Daily Mail reported on some of the reasons behind the widely complained of lack of cleanliness in British hospitals:
Unlike the "modern matron," her old-style predecessor exercised control over every nurse, cleaner and porter and she knew every patient under her care — because she understood that it was her care they were under and for which she was accountable.
She ran her wards like a military exercise. Today, that is impossible because nurses find that approach anachronistic and unacceptable. The result is sloppiness, a culture of excuses, gross dereliction of managerial duty and patient infection.
Another British newspaper, the Evening Standard, reported on the manager of the emergency treatment department in a London hospital:
She spent only one fifth of her time with her patients. Cleaning and maintenance took up most of her energy, to very little effect. Despite all the meetings, she had no authority over her cleaner. If a patient vomited in the waiting room, she had to clean it up because the cleaner refused to touch it.

Among the other common characteristics of bureaucracy that are especially harmful in a medical setting are ever growing numbers of meetings and ever growing paperwork requirements, leaving patients waiting while their doctors and nurses perform bureaucratic chores and rituals.
Another symptom of bureaucracy is pompous language, the country's Chief Medical Officer citing as a factor in the dangerous dirtiness of British hospitals a "paucity of hand hygiene agents" — that is, not enough soap and water. Such bureaucratic behavior is not simply irrational.
Paperwork, meetings, the hiring of more bureaucrats and the appointment of committees and task forces all provide protective cover for the authorities if critics accuse them of not knowing about problems or not doing anything about them.While such things help protect the careers of medical care bureaucrats, the time and resources they use up tend to reduce the care of patients.
The United States is at the other end of the spectrum in terms of government control of medical care. Some fault medical care in the United States for an average American life expectancy that is exceeded in a number of other countries.
However, medical care is not the same as health care, even though the two are often equated. Many things that shorten human life — including homicide, drug overdoses and obesity — are more a result of individual choices rather than the state of medical care.
There is relatively little that doctors can do about such things, which tend to be worse in the United States than in some other Western countries.
When international comparisons of medical care, as such, are made, the United States usually ranks higher than countries with government-run medical systems on such things as waiting times to see primary care physicians, waiting times to see specialists or have surgery, and cancer survival rates.
A study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development found that 23% of the patients having elective surgery in 2001 in Australia waited more than 4 months for that surgery. So did 26% of the patients in New Zealand, 27% of patients in Canada, and 38% of the patients in Britain. In the United States, only 5% of patients had to wait that long. The conclusion:
Waiting lists for elective surgery generally tend to be found in countries which combine public health insurance, with zero or low patient cost sharing and constraints on surgical capacity. Public health insurance and zero cost sharing remove the financial barriers to access to surgery.
Constraints on capacity prevent supply from matching demand. Under such circumstances, non-price rationing, in the form of waiting times for elective surgery, takes over from price rationing as a means of equilibrating demand and supply.
Elective surgery, incidentally, was not limited to cosmetic procedures but included cataract surgery, hip replacements and coronary artery bypass surgery.
Moreover, although a four-month waiting period was used by the OECD as a benchmark for collecting statistics, in Britain 3,592 patients waited more than six months for a colonoscopy and 55,376 waited more than six months for an audiology diagnosis, according to a report in the British Medical Journal in 2007.
In Canada, according to a provincial government website, 90% of Ontario patients needing hip replacements waited 336 days. In Britain, the wait is a year.
As for technology, a 2007 study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) showed that the number of CT scanners per million population was 7.5 in Britain, 11.2 in Canada and 32.2 in the United States.
For Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) units, there was an average of 5.4 MRIs per million population in Britain, 5.5 per million population in Canada and 26.6 per million population in the United States.

As you can see, the USA has the best medicine in the world and the best doctors and the best equipment.

Okay, I will post part 2 tomorrow.....

The Quantity of Health care.


Great post CJ! I'm really excited to read more about this and hope others will read it and finally see what I've been trying to say all along.....Government takeover is not the answer to healthcare. Problem is as soon as I say this people start with the attacks...."You don't want healthcare fixed", or "You are a conservative mouthpiece", and my favorite is "So you don't think there is anything wrong with the current system?". I never say any of these things but somehow I get branded as being against Obama's policies or whatever. Subscribed!
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I have nothing personal against Obama...it's his nutty upbringing and ideas that afflict him, not I.

Whenever a govt. tells you it's in ur best interest, rest assured it is in the interest of the govt., not you.

Always run the numbers....that's where the truth really lies.

just ignore Doob.... like I said previously.... if ur posts are inane...don't bother. Doob cannot process information like a normal person...:roll: A deficiency most obvious to all.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
I have nothing personal against Obama...it's his nutty upbringing and ideas that afflict him, not I.

Whenever a govt. tells you it's in ur best interest, rest assured it is in the interest of the govt., not you.

Always run the numbers....that's where the truth really lies.

just ignore Doob.... like I said previously.... if ur posts are inane...don't bother. Doob cannot process information like a normal person...:roll: A deficiency most obvious to all.
I have nothing personal against Obama either but I keep getting attacked for speaking out against his policies. I've been called everything from a raving right winger to racist. I assure you that I am neither. I make up my own mind about things and don't just tow the line of either party. Sometimes I agree with the libs and sometimes I agree with conservatives. More often though, lately, I disagree with both.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
?????????????????

I'll say it again since you missed it the first time. IBD (Investor's Business Daily, the conservative "news" publication from which CJ ripped this "article", which is actually an op-ed and not a news article at all) is full of shit. They have been ousted several times recently for misrepresenting or completely obliterating the facts in their "reporting".

CJ is also full of shit. He has NEVER, that I've witnessed, agreed with a liberal nor disagreed with a conservative republican. He also makes things up to suit his arguments, quite frequently I might add, and then tries to twist other people's words to make it appear that his blatant lies are the truth, and the real truth is a lie.

Make sense now?
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
I'll say it again since you missed it the first time. IBD (Investor's Business Daily, the conservative "news" publication from which CJ ripped this "article", which is actually an op-ed and not a news article at all) is full of shit. They have been ousted several times recently for misrepresenting or completely obliterating the facts in their "reporting".

CJ is also full of shit. He has NEVER, that I've witnessed, agreed with a liberal nor disagreed with a conservative republican. He also makes things up to suit his arguments, quite frequently I might add, and then tries to twist other people's words to make it appear that his blatant lies are the truth, and the real truth is a lie.

Make sense now?
That's not what I was questioning. I was wanting to know why you would attack someone in such a way without presenting any facts of your own. You seem intelligent and I am disappointed that you bring nothing to the table except attacks.
 

Sidewinder73

Active Member
I'll say it again since you missed it the first time. IBD (Investor's Business Daily, the conservative "news" publication from which CJ ripped this "article", which is actually an op-ed and not a news article at all) is full of shit. They have been ousted several times recently for misrepresenting or completely obliterating the facts in their "reporting".

CJ is also full of shit. He has NEVER, that I've witnessed, agreed with a liberal nor disagreed with a conservative republican. He also makes things up to suit his arguments, quite frequently I might add, and then tries to twist other people's words to make it appear that his blatant lies are the truth, and the real truth is a lie.

Make sense now?
Whenever Doob disagrees with an article or point of view it is immediately because it is a conservative source. However, I am sure that just about anything he references is from a liberal source, ie 90% of the media. Interesting how that works. I guess we should just diregard everything that has ever been written, because most articles are written from some sort of bias. Get a clue!
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
That's not what I was questioning. I was wanting to know why you would attack someone in such a way without presenting any facts of your own. You seem intelligent and I am disappointed that you bring nothing to the table except attacks.

I don't need facts when dealing with anything posted by CJ. Those of here who have had exchanges with him realize the facts don't make a bit of difference. I could post facts contrary to this opinion piece until I'm blue in the face, and CJ would simply respond by attacking me. He dislikes me because I constantly debunk his misinformation campaign and expose him for the liar he really is. In his eyes, this makes ME a liar.

See how it works? If I respond with facts, I am the one who is attacked. If I respond with attacks of my own, I'm still attacked in return, but the experience is more pleasurable for me because at least I got my attack in first.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Whenever Doob disagrees with an article or point of view it is immediately because it is a conservative source. However, I am sure that just about anything he references is from a liberal source, ie 90% of the media. Interesting how that works. I guess we should just diregard everything that has ever been written, because most articles are written from some sort of bias. Get a clue!
NO!! Whenever Doob CAN'T UNDERSTAND an article.....

That tard thinks Sowell is part of IBD.

Not smart..... I'm shocked.

Just put "it" on ignore. Life will become so fine once you do.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Whenever Doob disagrees with an article or point of view it is immediately because it is a conservative source. However, I am sure that just about anything he references is from a liberal source, ie 90% of the media. Interesting how that works. I guess we should just diregard everything that has ever been written, because most articles are written from some sort of bias. Get a clue!
You're the one who needs a clue.

When you consider Fox News as the source for "fair and balanced" news, everything else appears "liberal" by comparison, even when it isn't.

I'm not opposed to using IBD as a source because it's conservative. I'm opposed because IBD has repeatedly "reported" false information. This makes anything from IBD subject to a higher degree of scrutiny than something from a source that isn't reputed for its misrepresentation or blatant falsifying of the facts.

If you look at this "article", only a few paragraphs in there is a serious discrepency between what the writer asserts is true and what is actually true. The writer assumes that there are only 2 possible methods of payment for medical services. Paying the doctor directly, or paying through a government-administered insurance program. What about the private insurance companies who take 30% right off the top? How can you overlook 30% savings that could be derived from removing the private insurance middlemen? Apparently it's easy, when you completely disregard those middlemen when considering how medical costs are affected by payment systems.

A government administered health insurance plan WOULD save money. That's a fact. It would save money not by negotiating or setting payment rates, but by REMOVING THE MIDDLEMAN WHO TAKES 30% OF OUR PREMIUMS AND SPENDS IT ON ADVERTISING, ADMINISTRATION, AND EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION. That 30% would then be used to pay for actual medical services.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
NO!! Whenever Doob CAN'T UNDERSTAND an article.....

That tard thinks Sowell is part of IBD.

Not smart..... I'm shocked.

Just put "it" on ignore. Life will become so fine once you do.
I understand the article perfectly well, thanks for your concern. No, I don't think Thomas Sowell is "part of IBD", but I do question IBD's motive for publishing an article that doesn't consider ALL THE FACTS of the debate.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
I don't need facts when dealing with anything posted by CJ. Those of here who have had exchanges with him realize the facts don't make a bit of difference. I could post facts contrary to this opinion piece until I'm blue in the face, and CJ would simply respond by attacking me. He dislikes me because I constantly debunk his misinformation campaign and expose him for the liar he really is. In his eyes, this makes ME a liar.

See how it works? If I respond with facts, I am the one who is attacked. If I respond with attacks of my own, I'm still attacked in return, but the experience is more pleasurable for me because at least I got my attack in first.
I see. So you would rather just start schoolyard arguments? CJ might disagree with you and even attack you but what about the other people who read these posts? Maybe they can learn something if you could just put up some facts to back up why you feel the way you do. We need to have a "Drama Lovers" forum on here. Maybe we could take all the attacks and name calling and put it in one place so it would be easier for people who are interested in starting pointless arguments to find.
 

Sidewinder73

Active Member
You're the one who needs a clue.

When you consider Fox News as the source for "fair and balanced" news, everything else appears "liberal" by comparison, even when it isn't.

I'm not opposed to using IBD as a source because it's conservative. I'm opposed because IBD has repeatedly "reported" false information. This makes anything from IBD subject to a higher degree of scrutiny than something from a source that isn't reputed for its misrepresentation or blatant falsifying of the facts.

If you look at this "article", only a few paragraphs in there is a serious discrepency between what the writer asserts is true and what is actually true. The writer assumes that there are only 2 possible methods of payment for medical services. Paying the doctor directly, or paying through a government-administered insurance program. What about the private insurance companies who take 30% right off the top? How can you overlook 30% savings that could be derived from removing the private insurance middlemen? Apparently it's easy, when you completely disregard those middlemen when considering how medical costs are affected by payment systems.

A government administered health insurance plan WOULD save money. That's a fact. It would save money not by negotiating or setting payment rates, but by REMOVING THE MIDDLEMAN WHO TAKES 30% OF OUR PREMIUMS AND SPENDS IT ON ADVERTISING, ADMINISTRATION, AND EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION. That 30% would then be used to pay for actual medical services.
Where did I mention Fox News. I never said I watch fox? It's time to stop pointing at fox when this thread has nothing to do with FOX. I'm beginning to think that this is the only argument you ever bring to the table. It's laughable at how you assume I watch FOX. A gov't run health care program MIGHT (it's not proven) save money, but at what cost???? No one knows and if you look at history often times it costs more.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
I see. So you would rather just start schoolyard arguments? CJ might disagree with you and even attack you but what about the other people who read these posts? Maybe they can learn something if you could just put up some facts to back up why you feel the way you do. We need to have a "Drama Lovers" forum on here. Maybe we could take all the attacks and name calling and put it in one place so it would be easier for people who are interested in starting pointless arguments to find.
I'll forgive you for your presumption, because you were probably writing this while I was addressing your question of WHY I disagree with this article. As with certain other "articles" published by IBD, this one does not address all the facts. Instead, it focuses on only the facts that appear to make the writer's opinion "true", while leaving out facts that might make the writer's opinion "false".

A government-run insurance option would reduce costs. The writer doesn't consider all the facts when making his determination that it would NOT reduce costs. Instead, he cherry-picks certain half-facts that support his theory in order to mislead readers into believing his OPINION piece is a factual report of the underlying issue behind the debate.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Where did I mention Fox News. I never said I watch fox? It's time to stop pointing at fox when this thread has nothing to do with FOX. I'm beginning to think that this is the only argument you ever bring to the table. It's laughable at how you assume I watch FOX. A gov't run health care program MIGHT (it's not proven) save money, but at what cost???? No one knows and if you look at history often times it costs more.
Where did I say you mentioned Fox News? where did I say you watch fox news? where did I say this thread has anything to do with Fox News?

I didn't.

What I said was, when you consider Fox News as a source for "fair and balanced" news, everything else looks liberal by comparison. I chose Fox News over say, freerepublic.com, because Fox News is the most well-known outlet for GOP propaganda and the standard to which all other news organizations are measured when deciding whether they are "liberal" or "conservative".
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
I'll forgive you for your presumption, because you were probably writing this while I was addressing your question of WHY I disagree with this article. As with certain other "articles" published by IBD, this one does not address all the facts. Instead, it focuses on only the facts that appear to make the writer's opinion "true", while leaving out facts that might make the writer's opinion "false".

A government-run insurance option would reduce costs. The writer doesn't consider all the facts when making his determination that it would NOT reduce costs. Instead, he cherry-picks certain half-facts that support his theory in order to mislead readers into believing his OPINION piece is a factual report of the underlying issue behind the debate.
Let's see some facts to counterpoint this article then.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Notice all of the side tracking???

Notice how Doob probably never even read the article?

Notice how Doob doesn't actually address the article?

It's all deflection because Doob CAN'T address the issue, .. not enough brain powah... shuffle off thread troll.

The big boyz are talking.... go play outside.
 
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