The CORRECT homemade TERPINATOR/RESINATOR formula!

Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Skybound420 said:
I've been ramping up my S lately and these buds are getting sweeter and sweeter, but I've read that sulfur can disrupt or upset the microbial life and is why it's recommended to use unsulfured molasses in the ACT. Can you shed more light on that please?
Click to expand...
Sulfur is an antibiotic.

The forms of sulfur used matter greatly in how it effects soils. The form of S in Molasses is not natural! It contains no S naturally. Sulfur Dioxide is used to lighten or "bleach" molasses for other uses. This adds a very bitter nasty taste to molasses. So, it's on the bottle to tell you that it's not nasty tasting...... What happens when you mix sulfur dioxide and moisture? You get sulfuric acid... This tends to kill plants pretty good.

First thing to point out is that you asked about ACT or AACT to be precise. Never add sulfur compounds or kelp meals to AACT for making simple active bio teas. Each reduce the living bio counts by large amounts. kelp meal can reduce by 40 - 45%.... I would expect about the same or even more so for sulfur... Depends on concentration.

The sulfur in my mix's is in the form of a sulfate.
The Terp mix when done to my specs.... Is about 1.8% sulfate
The Mg sulfate mix is about...................................1.9% sulfate

The use of a sulfate in any growing is due to the ability of the sulfate to be water soluble. (NEVER try using a Ca sulfate as it is not water soluble) The other thing being with K or Mg sulfates is that actual chloride's are removed from the compounds mix. It's use with growing in containers actually reduces chloride build ups and blocks the effects of chloride's in the media it's self.

At any rate. The amounts applied in my formula's remain well below any threshold of soil bio damage.....

To the organic gardener. The use of Langbeinite and Leonite are S sources. Some High Carb grass's also will supply S....And of course we have animal dungs and any composting material will impart some S to soil... Not to mention my loved Gypsum adds in S to all soils....Even minute amounts of S from the air are absorbed by soil.

I use organic sourced dry chemicals.

FYI. The role of S in plant growth and regulation is so great. Every cpl of years when those that discuss such things get together. One of the most debated topics is making S a MACRO nutrient. Yup, right along with N - P - K......It will not surprise me if in some years.....All things "nutrient" begin to be N-P-K-S
 
Skybound420

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
I agree, S should be a macro, Ca and Mg too. They all use pretty high concentrations in ratio to NPK, I use salts and target every element cept for Zn, Cu, B and Mo, so I am able to throttle almost everything north of those 4 and now I have my S at about 50ppm till late bloom where I raise it slightly more. I think soon I will be increasing the avg to about 60ppm and observe. I started down below 40, but when I upped to 50, my Cheese has a very strong note of Boo Berry cereal from the early 80s. It's an unforgettable smell like bubblegum mixed with marshmallows. It's good stuff, I am very pleased.

I'm also glad you discussed kelp meal as I've been mixing a blend I have that's fulvic, humic and kelp mixed that I've been dressing my reservoirs and compost tea with, but I'll definitely stop adding it to my teas. If I mix too much concentrate of that shit, the kelp turns and begins to smell like shit. IDK if that's ok or not as I read kelp smells awful anyways.

The sulfates I have on hand are epsom salt and potassium sulfate. Hydro Buddy seems to only want to use the Mg sulfate, but I've read that Mg sulfate will enhance fruity/candy odors whereas K sulfate will enhance citrus scents and flavors. I want to test that theory, but I don't want to get too far away from my targets. Mg sulfate works great for sure as is though.

Edit - I've also read some good articles about silica should be considered for inclusion into the macro family, and as far as I know, the only counter argument is that no plant actually needs it or can be deficient of it.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Skybound420 said:
I agree, S should be a macro, Ca and Mg too. They all use pretty high concentrations in ratio to NPK, I use salts and target every element cept for Zn, Cu, B and Mo, so I am able to throttle almost everything north of those 4 and now I have my S at about 50ppm till late bloom where I raise it slightly more. I think soon I will be increasing the avg to about 60ppm and observe. I started down below 40, but when I upped to 50, my Cheese has a very strong note of Boo Berry cereal from the early 80s. It's an unforgettable smell like bubblegum mixed with marshmallows. It's good stuff, I am very pleased.

I'm also glad you discussed kelp meal as I've been mixing a blend I have that's fulvic, humic and kelp mixed that I've been dressing my reservoirs and compost tea with, but I'll definitely stop adding it to my teas. If I mix too much concentrate of that shit, the kelp turns and begins to smell like shit. IDK if that's ok or not as I read kelp smells awful anyways.

The sulfates I have on hand are epsom salt and potassium sulfate. Hydro Buddy seems to only want to use the Mg sulfate, but I've read that Mg sulfate will enhance fruity/candy odors whereas K sulfate will enhance citrus scents and flavors. I want to test that theory, but I don't want to get too far away from my targets. Mg sulfate works great for sure as is though.

Edit - I've also read some good articles about silica should be considered for inclusion into the macro family, and as far as I know, the only counter argument is that no plant actually needs it or can be deficient of it.
Click to expand...
There are other sulfate compounds I use from time to time.

Now then.... I have to dissect the Si thing a bit though.... Lets be clear here.

In soil, There is 0 (zero) need to supplement any Si! Soil delivers all the Si the plant can use!
In hydro, Cannabis does not require any Si supplement. It maybe a good idea to use some but, I'll leave that up to you.

To those that say they "see" a difference using Si in soil..... I say, "Your seeing things...You have a confirmation bias issue....

You see, nutrient makers will push Si to get your money... All those wonderful, glowing reports on what Si does for you... Is taken from growing GRASS's or Monocot plants.
We grow a Dicot plant... There are no real papers that prove Si improves Dicot growth! Search Google scholar if you like..

Any, and I mean any benefit would be seen in increased cell wall structure. This results in more ash.
As far as increased resistance to environmental conditions? Not at any amount that really helps in dicot plants...

I can go into studies that prove this with wet and dry plant % of Si in treated and un-treated plants..... Si gets results from Monocots. One of those studies on rice even points to perfect natural ways it gets to the plant in Asian rice farms (animal/human dung fertilization)....

So, unless your in hydro, and using RO.......Forget about Si
 
Skybound420

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
I never knew about monocots and dicots, but a quick search filled that in as it relates to cotyledons. FYI, I am in hydro, potted rockwool cubes with recirculating nutes. Though this article doesn't mention mono/dicot, I still assume that their tests were all done on dicots and comparing one to the other to observe the results. I've been growing long enough to have experienced the differences myself, but I do wish to know more about my nutes and will continue to investigate this topic.

https://www.maximumyield.com/simply-silica/2/1077

Pen 1.jpg
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Skybound420 said:
I never knew about monocots and dicots, but a quick search filled that in as it relates to cotyledons. FYI, I am in hydro, potted rockwool cubes with recirculating nutes. Though this article doesn't mention mono/dicot, I still assume that their tests were all done on dicots and comparing one to the other to observe the results. I've been growing long enough to have experienced the differences myself, but I do wish to know more about my nutes and will continue to investigate this topic.

https://www.maximumyield.com/simply-silica/2/1077

View attachment 4264717
Click to expand...

That is just a magazine. They are written buy people that are paid to write things that the magazine approves of. Magazines are paid for by advertising....not counter sales, or subscriptions. They hold the advertiser line as they pay the bills. This is one of the biggest reasons people still come in and say "I use x,y, or z to flush the last 2 weeks of plant life.

"flushing is a myth!"

Your being sold a bill of goods sir. The writer of that piece did NO testing of anything before writing that! I've been in school, worked the labs and done my research to graduate. I continue to read papers and gain knowledge.

There are no published papers that prove Si helps Dicot plants do anything. All this is proven by Si content in plant matter. Measured by %, and done with dry and wet plant material...Supplementation of Si in soil plants......Shows negligible Si content increase when supplemented.

neg·li·gi·ble
/ˈneɡləjəb(ə)l/
adjective
  1. so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.
    "sound could at last be recorded with incredible ease and at negligible cost"
    synonyms: trivial, trifling, insignificant, unimportant, minor, of no account, of no consequence, of no importance, not worth bothering about, not worth mentioning, inconsequential, minimal, small, slight, tiny, minute, inappreciable, imperceptible, infinitesimal, nugatory, petty;More

Now with hydro use. The results tend to mirror the soil ones. BUT, this depends on the water source and the nutrient used... If there is not enough available for the plant to use, You have thin/weak stemmed plants that require more support.


On the flip side of that coin, and what I suspect your waiting for me to say.... In any actual side by side testing I've done. (these were with tall, stemmy strains with heavy budding out by the ends...ie GG#4) I encountered NO increase in the ability of the plant to support the structure. No larger stems. I'm not going to introduce insects to test if they resist their attacks.

On that note. I should explain that in testing this in monocot plants. The increase in insect and mold resistance is only measured in days it takes to infect the plant. Gives you about 2 weeks over no-supplemented (weak sourced to begin with) Rice plants... I have YET to find any Dicot testing that increases things outside of the 48 hr control parameter.

Sadly, people like to defend their position on things like this. Sometimes, even after being given true opposing information.

Si is not required to grow cannabis.
It will not increase quality.
In fact, it could reduce trich. and THC production by volume.... This is a worthy research point!
 
macsnax

macsnax

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
That is just a magazine. They are written buy people that are paid to write things that the magazine approves of. Magazines are paid for by advertising....not counter sales, or subscriptions. They hold the advertiser line as they pay the bills. This is one of the biggest reasons people still come in and say "I use x,y, or z to flush the last 2 weeks of plant life.

"flushing is a myth!"

Your being sold a bill of goods sir. The writer of that piece did NO testing of anything before writing that! I've been in school, worked the labs and done my research to graduate. I continue to read papers and gain knowledge.

There are no published papers that prove Si helps Dicot plants do anything. All this is proven by Si content in plant matter. Measured by %, and done with dry and wet plant material...Supplementation of Si in soil plants......Shows negligible Si content increase when supplemented.

neg·li·gi·ble
/ˈneɡləjəb(ə)l/
adjective
  1. so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.
    "sound could at last be recorded with incredible ease and at negligible cost"
    synonyms: trivial, trifling, insignificant, unimportant, minor, of no account, of no consequence, of no importance, not worth bothering about, not worth mentioning, inconsequential, minimal, small, slight, tiny, minute, inappreciable, imperceptible, infinitesimal, nugatory, petty;More

Now with hydro use. The results tend to mirror the soil ones. BUT, this depends on the water source and the nutrient used... If there is not enough available for the plant to use, You have thin/weak stemmed plants that require more support.


On the flip side of that coin, and what I suspect your waiting for me to say.... In any actual side by side testing I've done. (these were with tall, stemmy strains with heavy budding out by the ends...ie GG#4) I encountered NO increase in the ability of the plant to support the structure. No larger stems. I'm not going to introduce insects to test if they resist their attacks.

On that note. I should explain that in testing this in monocot plants. The increase in insect and mold resistance is only measured in days it takes to infect the plant. Gives you about 2 weeks over no-supplemented (weak sourced to begin with) Rice plants... I have YET to find any Dicot testing that increases things outside of the 48 hr control parameter.

Sadly, people like to defend their position on things like this. Sometimes, even after being given true opposing information.

Si is not required to grow cannabis.
It will not increase quality.
In fact, it could reduce trich. and THC production by volume.... This is a worthy research point!
Click to expand...
I just switched to an under current system and was contemplating adding Si, but I don't think I want to end up with buds that don't burn right.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
macsnax said:
I just switched to an under current system and was contemplating adding Si, but I don't think I want to end up with buds that don't burn right.
Click to expand...
I would be thinking about it if I used RO..... I would likely add some Si.... Hydro, (as a rule) goes "up" in pH. You adjust with a down. If at any time in mixing your solution. If it needs an "UP" adjustment.. Use a Si based "up" product...
Always remember to mix the Si - alone in several gallons of your water and add that LAST after stirring in your other nutrients to the res first. Stir while adding Si to any mix also.

It may not be required but, I have seen it help plants that are not getting what they can use.
 
macsnax

macsnax

Well-Known Member
I'm using filter filtered water that comes out at about 70ppm. This is my stash run, and I would be pissed if the buds aren't up to par. Maybe supplement less than a full dose of Si? Less often? I think I'm going to make a batch of your terpinator too, that's why I've been hanging out in here.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
Sulfur is an antibiotic.

The forms of sulfur used matter greatly in how it effects soils. The form of S in Molasses is not natural! It contains no S naturally. Sulfur Dioxide is used to lighten or "bleach" molasses for other uses. This adds a very bitter nasty taste to molasses. So, it's on the bottle to tell you that it's not nasty tasting...... What happens when you mix sulfur dioxide and moisture? You get sulfuric acid... This tends to kill plants pretty good.

First thing to point out is that you asked about ACT or AACT to be precise. Never add sulfur compounds or kelp meals to AACT for making simple active bio teas. Each reduce the living bio counts by large amounts. kelp meal can reduce by 40 - 45%.... I would expect about the same or even more so for sulfur... Depends on concentration.

The sulfur in my mix's is in the form of a sulfate.
The Terp mix when done to my specs.... Is about 1.8% sulfate
The Mg sulfate mix is about...................................1.9% sulfate

The use of a sulfate in any growing is due to the ability of the sulfate to be water soluble. (NEVER try using a Ca sulfate as it is not water soluble) The other thing being with K or Mg sulfates is that actual chloride's are removed from the compounds mix. It's use with growing in containers actually reduces chloride build ups and blocks the effects of chloride's in the media it's self.

At any rate. The amounts applied in my formula's remain well below any threshold of soil bio damage.....

To the organic gardener. The use of Langbeinite and Leonite are S sources. Some High Carb grass's also will supply S....And of course we have animal dungs and any composting material will impart some S to soil... Not to mention my loved Gypsum adds in S to all soils....Even minute amounts of S from the air are absorbed by soil.

I use organic sourced dry chemicals.

FYI. The role of S in plant growth and regulation is so great. Every cpl of years when those that discuss such things get together. One of the most debated topics is making S a MACRO nutrient. Yup, right along with N - P - K......It will not surprise me if in some years.....All things "nutrient" begin to be N-P-K-S
Click to expand...
Makes sense to me that S should be a macro, as certain A.A. require the presence of S to be synthesized. Though I do not know the A.A. profiles of cannabis in particular, what they can and cannot synthesize themselves. One would assume that most plants would be able to synthesize them all, though may not utilize them all and therefore not make ones they do not need.... not sure how many raw amino acids are floating around in the soil or given up by microbes, and whether or not plants can directly uptake them. We have so much to learn still...

thoughts?
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
ShLUbY said:
Makes sense to me that S should be a macro, as certain A.A. require the presence of S to be synthesized. Though I do not know the A.A. profiles of cannabis in particular, what they can and cannot synthesize themselves. One would assume that most plants would be able to synthesize them all, though may not utilize them all and therefore not make ones they do not need.... not sure how many raw amino acids are floating around in the soil or given up by microbes, and whether or not plants can directly uptake them. We have so much to learn still...

thoughts?
Click to expand...
I agree for the most part.

Amino's in soil are generally directly up-taken by the plant as proteins... Studies from 2007 have found that they are used as N sources in highly myco active soil. This points to the idea that highly active soil grown plants use N from protein sources over organically broken down sources. This study rather proved that point. Yet did not address the differing effects of Peptides and proteins that are up-taken only by fungal actions..

So short answer: Yes Amino's are directly utilized by the plant. The environment of the soil is greatly effecting this process and as to just what amino's are being directly utilized.
 
macsnax

macsnax

Well-Known Member
Hey doc ya skipped me, lol. I would love to hear your thoughts on my post above. There's not a lot of people here that I would take their advice and run with it.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
I agree for the most part.

Amino's in soil are generally directly up-taken by the plant as proteins... Studies from 2007 have found that they are used as N sources in highly myco active soil. This points to the idea that highly active soil grown plants use N from protein sources over organically broken down sources. This study rather proved that point. Yet did not address the differing effects of Peptides and proteins that are up-taken only by fungal actions..

So short answer: Yes Amino's are directly utilized by the plant. The environment of the soil is greatly effecting this process and as to just what amino's are being directly utilized.
Click to expand...
Wow that's really interesting about protein obtained N rather than nitrate or ammonium. It would be interesting to know just how much fungi play a role in the delivery of peptides and proteins.

I heard a shocking comment on a podcast recently that we know more about space than we do about the hidden ecosystems in the ground, which ultimately we depend on for survival.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
ShLUbY said:
Wow that's really interesting about protein obtained N rather than nitrate or ammonium. It would be interesting to know just how much fungi play a role in the delivery of peptides and proteins.

I heard a shocking comment on a podcast recently that we know more about space than we do about the hidden ecosystems in the ground, which ultimately we depend on for survival.
Click to expand...
That is true to a point.

People to talk to about soil content? Agronomist!
Agronomy is soil science.. All parts of it.... Did class's but, not my major or minor...

If you like reading papers.... Try Google Scholar.... Just google that name and you have access. Thing is, some papers are "locked". You need a student "key". You can get that free by attending any college, or by buying it. You might try befriending a college student and they can share their "key"... I use my son's right now..

Googling for info in the normal google.....Tends to only give you the abstracts

Here is an open sourced paper. This is the one I mentioned from 2007... Very interesting. Don't be afraid of researching the meaning of anything they outline in the paper. To actually understand the whole work...

Nicely done paper!

https://www.pnas.org/content/105/11/4524
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
macsnax said:
I'm using filter filtered water that comes out at about 70ppm. This is my stash run, and I would be pissed if the buds aren't up to par. Maybe supplement less than a full dose of Si? Less often? I think I'm going to make a batch of your terpinator too, that's why I've been hanging out in here.
Click to expand...
For me. I would have to look at the results of a cpl of runs. Personally, I would decide from there if I needed to supplement Si...
Still, if you choose to try...
Use a powdered high concentration/plant usable Si source... Agri Sil comes to mind.
 
macsnax

macsnax

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
For me. I would have to look at the results of a cpl of runs. Personally, I would decide from there if I needed to supplement Si...
Still, if you choose to try...
Use a powdered high concentration/plant usable Si source... Agri Sil comes to mind.
Click to expand...
That's all I needed to hear, I was leaning towards not using it. I'll be firing up the new system in a few days, so we shall see.
 
D

DEZn00ts

Member
macsnax said:
I'm using filter filtered water that comes out at about 70ppm. This is my stash run, and I would be pissed if the buds aren't up to par. Maybe supplement less than a full dose of Si? Less often? I think I'm going to make a batch of your terpinator too, that's why I've been hanging out in here.
Click to expand...
What's terpinator?
 
Chunky Stool

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
For me. I would have to look at the results of a cpl of runs. Personally, I would decide from there if I needed to supplement Si...
Still, if you choose to try...
Use a powdered high concentration/plant usable Si source... Agri Sil comes to mind.
Click to expand...
I've had good results with liquid silica and use it often to raise PH in my nute mixes.
Our geraniums live much longer when they get regular doses of liquid silica, often into December -- and still look good! (We pull them when they wilt.)
That didn't happen before I started using the silica. We were lucky of they looked decent through Halloween.
Also much less harmful insect activity.

I will concede that there are other obvious factors at play, like PH change and increased K from the silica.

It's also possible to add silica to organic soil mixes. I recently used one that was made from volcanic dust and will see if I can find it for a pic.
Seemed to work well, but I didn't do side-by-side tests or anything... :leaf::dunce::leaf:
 
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