The Consitution

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Ahem. Doc, the fact that you felt forced to expend 5 paragraphs and two different fonts explaining two lines worth of stated law tends to prove my point. Had the amendment stated "the right of citizens to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" there would be no need for your elaborate explanation. There would be no need to transport us back several centuries, no need for comparisons with current drug law, no need to reflect back upon past nefarious regulators. The point here is always the same one, if you need to do what you just did, then the law is indeed ambiguous.
the perceived ambiguity results from the reader's biases, not from the structure of the words.
eventually we will devolve into several hundred rounds of "Im rubber youre glue!" and "i know you are but what am i?"
let me avoid this by being the first to take this debate Nuclear:


NO U!!
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
the perceived ambiguity results from the reader's biases, not from the structure of the words.
eventually we will devolve into several hundred rounds of "Im rubber youre glue!" and "i know you are but what am i?"
let me avoid this by being the first to take this debate Nuclear:


NO U!!

the reader's bias?


Reader's bias?


How about an exercise then.



"the Citizen's right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" - kindly use any bias you like and tell me how this statement could be construed to mean anything other than what it is clearly meant to convey.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
[SIZE=+1]
[SIZE=+1]"It is demonstrable," said he, "that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.
Observe, for instance,the nose is formed for spectacles, therefore we wear spectacles.
The legs are visibly designed for stockings, accordingly we wear stockings.
Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles, therefore My Lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged.
Swine were intended to be eaten, therefore we eat pork all the year round: and they, who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly;
they should say that everything is best." ~ Candide, Voltaire[/SIZE]

200 years ago, quite clear, quite clearly also an abs[SIZE=+1]urdist comm[SIZE=+1]entary. today, not so much.

language wanders, but that which is writ remains. [/SIZE][/SIZE]to read that which is writ and claim it is in the modern idiom or vernacular is foolhardy.
Whilom ther was dwellynge at oxenford
A riche gnof, that gestes heeld to bord,
And of his craft he was a carpenter.
With hym ther was dwellynge a poure scoler,
Hadde lerned art, but al his fantasye
Was turned for to lerne astrologye,
And koude a certeyn of conclusiouns,
To demen by interrogaciouns,
If that men asked hym in certein houres
Whan that men sholde have droghte or elles shoures,
Or if men asked hym what sholde bifalle
Of every thyng; I may nat rekene hem alle.
This clerk was cleped hende nicholas.
Of deerne love he koude and of solas;
And therto he was sleigh and ful privee,
And lyk a mayden meke for to see.
A chambre hadde he in that hostelrye
Allone, withouten any compaignye,
Ful fetisly ydight with herbes swoote;
And he hymself as sweete as is the roote
Of lycorys, or any cetewale.
His almageste, and bookes grete and smale,
His astrelabie, longynge for his art,
His augrym stones layen faire apart,
On shelves couched at his beddes heed;
His presse ycovered with a faldyng reed;
And al above ther lay a gay sautrie,
On which he made a-nyghtes melodie
So swetely that all the chambre rong;
And angelus ad virginem he song;
And after that he song the kynges noote.
Ful often blessed was his myrie throte.
And thus this sweete clerk his tyme spente
After his freendes fyndyng and his rente.
This carpenter hadde wedded newe a wyf,
Which that he lovede moore than his lyf;
Of eighteteene yeer she was of age.
Jalous he was, and heeld hire narwe in cage,
For she was wylde and yong, and he was old,
And demed hymself been lik a cokewold.
He knew nat catoun, for his wit was rude,
That bad man sholde wedde his simylitude.
Men sholde wedden after hire estaat,
For youthe and elde is often at debaat.
But sith that he was fallen in the snare,
He moste endure, as oother folk, his care.
Fair was this yonge wyf, and therwithal
As any wezele hir body gent and smal.
A ceynt she werede, barred al of silk,
A barmclooth eek as whit as morne milk
Upon hir lendes, ful of many a goore.
Whit was hir smok, and broyden al bifoore
And eek bihynde, on hir coler aboute,
Of col-blak silk, withinne and eek withoute.
The tapes of hir white voluper
Were of the same suyte of hir coler;
Hir filet brood of silk, and set ful hye.
And sikerly she hadde a likerous ye;
Ful smale ypulled were hire browes two,
And tho were bent and blake as any sloo.
She was ful moore blisful on to see
Than is the newe pere-jonette tree,
And softer than the wolle is of a wether.
And by hir girdel heeng a purs of lether,
Tasseled with silk, and perled with latoun.
In al this world, to seken up and doun,
There nys no man so wys that koude thenche
So gay a popelote or swich a wenche.
Ful brighter was the shynyng of hir hewe
Than in the tour the noble yforged newe.
But of hir song, it was as loude and yerne
As any swalwe sittynge on a berne.
Therto she koude skippe and make game,
As any kyde or calf folwynge his dame. ~The Miller's Tale, Chaucer [/SIZE]:-P[SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]seems pretty clear to me mate. [/SIZE]
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
lol, yeah, ...as clear as mud.

peace, bozo
if you can read it. the miller's tale is a fine example of dirty fiction. in fact the Canterbury tales are dirty and hilarious as fuck.

modern translations are available, but all modern translations of the second amendment invariably destroy the "first clause" argument unless they come directly from HCI, the Brady Campaign or some other "highly regarded scholar" like diane feinstein.
 

justanotherbozo

Well-Known Member
if you can read it. the miller's tale is a fine example of dirty fiction. in fact the Canterbury tales are dirty and hilarious as fuck.

modern translations are available, but all modern translations of the second amendment invariably destroy the "first clause" argument unless they come directly from HCI, the Brady Campaign or some other "highly regarded scholar" like diane feinstein.
yeah, mostly i was being a wiseass and lazy as well, ...although i must say some might think you a bit pedantic.

bozo
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I don't think so canna. Consider the 2nd again and all of the ambiguity that first clauses introduces. In the case of civil rights, don't we want rigidity? Isn't ambiguity with regard to say, a female's right to her equality something to be avoided? "the right to peaceably assemble" is a pretty concrete right and I believe a concrete statement to that effect is the most powerful and useful - leaving no room for interpretive wiggle room might be necessary.
I would argue for more rigidity if i felt it were practical. I think the need for both rigidity and wiggle room is inherent in the nature of language and those who use it: humans.
And I note that you have pointed out that there are rights, e.g. privacy, that have been "discovered" after the Constitution was <cough> constituted, with the lively possibility that there are others waiting their turn.

So yes, while the language of the 2nd amendment bothers me some, I am not bothered beyond reason. The Second could be amended if we as a nation see necessity or good in it. I do worry however that the rewrite could go the other way. We have SCOTUS justices such as Breyer and Sotomayor plainly stating that they think the the people with the right to keep&bear arms is/aren't a plural (individuals) but a singular (a collective, with the word "militia" being maneuvered into more modern and narrowed semantics to support that).

Imo this does a disservice to a great corpus of judicial thought put into determining that the Bill of Rights is about and for individuals, and serves to define and limit the powers of central government.

But back to the idea of the desirability of rigidity. I see as much harm there as good. Remember that "all men are created equal" meant both white and male? I for one am glad that this was liberalized. I wonder if, had a "rigidist" policy been in place, that liberalization could have been more easily blocked by its detractors ... cn
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
the reader's bias?


Reader's bias?


How about an exercise then.



"the Citizen's right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" - kindly use any bias you like and tell me how this statement could be construed to mean anything other than what it is clearly meant to convey.
If that were the text, it would be much much less ambiguous than the actual version which speaks of "the people".
The other cutesy feature of the amendment's adopted text are the two supernumerary commas, one after "militia", the other after "people". The proposed text had a much more modern punctuational syntax, supporting the idea that the opening clause was expository and not a condition.

But in the hands of appellate courts, all is wet clay. cn
 

unohu69

Well-Known Member
In Heller, the Court held that (1) the District of Columbia's total ban on handgun possession in the home amounted to a prohibition on an entire class of "arms" that Americans overwhelmingly chose for the lawful purpose of self-defense, and thus violated the Second Amendment; and (2) the District's requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock also violated the Second Amendment, because the law made it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.

The Court reasoned that the Amendment's prefatory clause, i.e., "[a] well regulated

Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," announced the Amendment's purpose, but did not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause, i.e., "the
right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Moreover, the prefatory clause's history comported with the Court's interpretation, because the prefatory clause stemmed from the Anti-Federalists' concern that the federal government would disarm the people in order to disable the citizens' militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule.
Further, the Court distinguished United States v.Miller,4 in which the Court upheld a statute requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of sawed-off shotguns, on the ground that Miller limited the type of weapon to which the Second Amendment right applied to those in common use for lawful purposes.
In McDonald v. Chicago,5 the Court struck down laws enacted by Chicago and the village of Oak Park effectively banning handgun possession by almost all private citizens, holding that the Fourteenth Amendment incorporated the Second Amendment right, recognized in Heller, to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense.
The Court reasoned that this right is fundamental to the nation's scheme of ordered liberty, given that self-defense was a basic right recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present, and Heller held that individual self-defense was "the central component" of the Second Amendment right. Moreover, a survey of the contemporaneous history also demonstrated clearly that the Fourteenth Amendment's Framers and ratifiers counted the right to keep and bear arms among those fundamental rights necessary to the Nation's system of ordered liberty.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/



I know its a sad reality that freedom and liberty is sometimes paid for with blood. sometimes that blood is sad, and tragic, but the alternative, is much, much worse. You think the "leaders" of this world are any more sane or stable than the nut jobs of the past? your delusional, they just have more expensive toys now. learn from history, there has NEVER been a government that was "for the people" all governments fail, and when they do, they will care not about the average person, they will do what they must in order to guarantee, "continuity of government" not the "general welfare of the people". That part just looks good on paper...
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
..."scotus ought to be managed such that no Justice can be bought by capital interests....."

Unkie Buck, I have a couple of questions about this concept. I know that you are correct. Corruption is what leads to warlord, I think. But, what are your ideas on these details?

- How to "manage" scotus? I was under then impression they are quite independent after appointed.

- Do you know of any difference between now and the FDR era, scandal?

- What is to stop it from ever happening again, in your opinion?
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
Alternative: A constitution with less ambiguity. If you're really expecting me to lay out a detailed societal program here for you, then you're wildly mistaken about my priorities and your importance.
Certainty, I think I see what you mean. Divine Right, God-King, Emperor of the Sun, those Constitutions are certainty. Capricious whim of a despot, is the certainty. Dynastic rule is a certainty. Horrid "laws" that have no basis other than divine right, is certain.

Perhaps if we compare other Constitutions on the planet, we might understand more what is a Constitution, what they are for, and what they do. We could begin with Russia. Constituted since 1993. Open-ended powers of govt.

http://justice.uaa.alaska.edu/forum/24/4winter2008/a_constitution.html
Mannheimer, David. (Winter 2008). "Comparing the American and Russian Constitutions." Alaska Justice Forum24(4): 1, 8&#8211;12.The constitutions of the United States and the Russian Federation were written half a world and more than two hundred years apart. Despite this fact, the two constitutions appear to be remarkably similiar on many levels. Yet their surface similarities mask true differences&#8212;differences in the explicit provisions of the two constitutions and also differences in how seemingly equivalent provisions have been put into practice. These differences are mainly attributable to two factors: the extremely different political problems facing the two nations when they drafted their constitutions and the different political traditions that shaped the drafters' choices and emphasis. This article explores the two nation's provisions for federal supremacy, the presidency, and the rights of citizens, and compares the American constitution's emphasis on procedure with the Russian constitution's relative open-endedness about the powers of government and selection of officials.

In a general sense, of course, the constitution of every nation addresses itself to the same basic issues:

  • How will the government be constituted, and how will authority be distributed within the government?
  • How will political power be invested in leaders, transferred to new leaders, and revoked prematurely if need be?
  • What will be the relationship between the government and its citizens? In particular, what will be the protected rights of the citizenry and the corresponding limits on the power of the state? And what will be the government&#8217;s obligations to its citizens, and the citizenry&#8217;s obligations to the government?
  • What will be the relationship between the national government and the various sub-levels of government, as well as the government&#8217;s relationship with the various cultural, civic, ethnic, and religious groups within society?
  • How will the national income and resources be generated, distributed, and regulated?
 
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