The capabilities of a simple soil (and a 1000w DE bulb with SIPs)

Imbald

Well-Known Member
@kratos015 I have read and understand a lot of what you say about top dressing, foliar feeding, and watering with the occasional coconut water. Makes total sense. I have most of this tucked away in the corner of my head.

Couple things I was hoping you could touch a little more on.

*The quantities of top dressings or amendments you like to use. I do realize it will be different from say 5 gal container to a 20 gal size.

*How much your diluting your coconut water.

*Whats your thoughts on adding Grokashi to the top dress as a nutritional amendment, plus the added benefit of helping to break it down quicker.
My only concern with the grokashi would be if the mycelium it promotes would lower the ph value of your soil to much.
Thanks
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
@kratos015 I have read and understand a lot of what you say about top dressing, foliar feeding, and watering with the occasional coconut water. Makes total sense. I have most of this tucked away in the corner of my head.

Couple things I was hoping you could touch a little more on.

*The quantities of top dressings or amendments you like to use. I do realize it will be different from say 5 gal container to a 20 gal size.

*How much your diluting your coconut water.

*Whats your thoughts on adding Grokashi to the top dress as a nutritional amendment, plus the added benefit of helping to break it down quicker.
My only concern with the grokashi would be if the mycelium it promotes would lower the ph value of your soil to much.
Thanks
Sure thing!

I follow the instructions on the bags, pretty much every amendment I've ever used has recommended 1-2tbsp/gallon of soil for the most part. Neem is 1tbsp/gallon, and the G&B 4-6-4 blend I use is 2tbsp per gallon, or 1/2 cup per 5g pot.

I'd just like to re-iterate though, I'm able to get away with top dressing every 2-4 weeks because of how light the amendments I use are. Neem (6-1-1) and G&B (4-6-4) aren't very hot at all, so the worst thing that'll happen to me if I apply too much is diminished returns.

Coconut water is easy enough, I just dump the entire bottle of coco water into a 1g water jug, then fill the rest with water. Mix and apply. It doesn't need to be diluted, its just there really isn't much point to using a ton of the stuff. A little goes a long way, only reason we really use coconut water is for the cytokine content, so you really don't need all too much. I mix a 1g jug of coconut water dilution that I use for all of the 5g pots, then another 1g just solely for the big 25g pots.

I've never actually tried top dressing with Grokashi/Bokashi before, though it might be interesting to try now that you mention it.

Don't trip too much on lowering/raising the pH of your soil, its quite rare for one to be able to actually add something to a living soil and have it affect the pH that drastically. The mycelium webs won't lower the pH of your soil enough to warrant any concern.

Ultimately, I can't comment on actually using Grokashi/Bokashi as a top dress as I've no experience with it.

Barring some unique and niche situations, we don't really have to worry about pH too much.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Day 15 of 12/12.

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Hit them with the monthly foliar last night. As mentioned in the first post of this thread, its the weekly Epsom Salt+ProTekt feed, but I added TM7 and Fish Hydrolysate.

Stretch has slowed down a lot, pistils everywhere. Now is where the fun begins :)
 

dubekoms

Well-Known Member
I remember seeing this watering setup awhile ago on grasscity. People called it the "swick" watering system. Very simple and effective. Great work @kratos015
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member

dubekoms

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is the exact thread I got the inspiration from! For some reason, I remember linking to other forums being bannable. Don't know why I remember this, I must clearly have it wrong.

I absolutely love Noob's method, it is beyond effective and just as simple. I will never grow indoors without these ever again. Thanks for stopping in!
I've been growing in promix with fertilizer for awhile now after giving up on organics. I think my main problems came from not being able to keep the medium sufficiently moist. Looking at what your doing with these swicks is giving me inspiration to try growing organically again.

I already have a 4x4 tray. Next run I might fill it up with perlite and give it go. I think it will be a good idea to put a layer of panda film over the whole table and cut out holes to drop the fabric pots in to help prevent excessive evaporation from the perlite that isn't covered by the pots. I might experiment with adding a very small amount of bleach to the water to keep bacteria away in the reservoir, I know it's not good for the benecifial bacteria but I've read it mostly gets neutralized in the first half inch or so of soil.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I've been growing in promix with fertilizer for awhile now after giving up on organics. I think my main problems came from not being able to keep the medium sufficiently moist. Looking at what your doing with these swicks is giving me inspiration to try growing organically again.

I already have a 4x4 tray. Next run I might fill it up with perlite and give it go. I think it will be a good idea to put a layer of panda film over the whole table and cut out holes to drop the fabric pots in to help prevent excessive evaporation from the perlite that isn't covered by the pots. I might experiment with adding a very small amount of bleach to the water to keep bacteria away in the reservoir, I know it's not good for the benecifial bacteria but I've read it mostly gets neutralized in the first half inch or so of soil.
I noticed Noob had suggested covering the perlite with something, but only if you're concerned about algae growth which I wasn't.

You're correct about the excess evaporation going on though, as I'm finding out myself. My humidity is constantly 50-60%. However, the plants seem quite happy with that high humidity so I'm not in much of a rush to correct it if they're happy.

I have plenty of airflow and ventilation, always have, so I'm not very concerned with mold/mildew as its never been an issue for me in the past.

I wouldn't use bleach, it'll do more harm than good honestly.

Everything should be sterilized enough to never require the use of corrective measures. Only bacteria growth I noticed was in the one reservoir I filled too much, and did get anaerobic conditions. All I had to do was dump the reservoir out, let the perlite dry out, and good as new. Fortunately it was just my 5g pots reservoir, and not my 25g pot's reservoir. If one takes care to not overfill the reservoir, you'll never experience bacteria issues. The water doesn't get stagnant enough to allow them to successfully produce.

However, if this is still a concern for you, you could just grab an air pump with some air stones and keep the water in your reservoirs aerated. This way, you'll never see anaerobic bacteria.


Sorry to hear about your negative experiences with organics. I always like to recommend people try living soil with just one or two pots at first, get their feet wet so to speak. Many people that try living soil first end up disappointed and discouraged, because they're already amazing hydro growers and don't get the same results from living soil that their hydro gives them. In my experience, the only thing that motivates people to keep going is the difference in flavor.

The swicks have been amazing, downright game changing for me, however I got great results before even without them in the past.








In my experience, the biggest issue people have with living soil is they tend to over-complicate things. This is why I say living soil as opposed to organic soil, believe it or not they are not one in the same. A living soil has just that, life. We actually do not take care of plants in a living soil grow, we take care of the soil which in turn takes care of the plants in a symbiotic relationship. It is entirely possible to have an organic soil that is devoid of life.

From many grows I've seen, the biggest killer of living soil are the nutrient teas found on the sticky in this section. In fact, I wish the thread would get unstickied because I have seen these guano/alfalfa/etc. teas ruin so many grows (I'll touch on that later). Having come from a hydro background myself, my biggest hurdle was sitting back and doing nothing. This is human nature, to think we have to actively be involved in order to achieve success. Once I took a step back, and realized I only have to care for the soil and not the plant, I finally experienced success.

This is why I like Coots' mix so much, it is extremely simple and has everything that your soil (and by proxy, plants) could ever need. It requires minimal maintenance in the form of top dressing every 2-4 weeks, and that's about it.


A living soil is a pantry/fridge that holds food.

Upon mixing the soil, once microbes colonize it they begin decomposing the organic matter within the soil and defecating nutrients. These nutrients get bound to your soil via the Cation Exchange, effectively being "stored" in the pantry for later use. You go to the store, grab all your food (Crab, Neem Meals, etc.) and store it in your pantry (the soil). It will stay in the pantry until used up.

Once the plant decides its hungry for something specific (lets say Nitrogen for instance), one of two things will happen.

1) The roots will simply absorb any Nitrogen stored up in the soil, and use exactly how much it needs. No more, no less.
2) If for some reason there is no Nitrogen bound to your soil yet, no problem. The roots exude signals in the form of terpenes to the microbes in the soil. The microbes will then munch on a source of Nitrogen (Neem Meal for instance), and proceed to defecate the Nitrogen straight onto the roots for the plant to absorb as needed. Any excess is bound to the soil.

In scenario #1, the plants go to the pantry and find something to eat. In scenario #2, the plants order groceries online and have them delivered.


So, why are guano/alfalfa/etc. teas so bad then?

They circumvent the entire process outlined above. In the process above, the nutrients are in fact readily available, but are given to the plant gradually and at the plant's discretion. The plant is in total control, and tells the soil what it wants, how much it wants, and when it wants it. There is no excess (if using light amendments), and there are never deficiencies if you keep up with top dresses.

Brewing these teas are no different than buying a bottle of ferts from a hydro store; they are made immediately available and all at once instead of gradually.

So, instead of us going to the fridge or pantry for a simple meal, we're basically having a funnel shoved down our throats and being force fed! All you can is pray that what you're being force fed isn't a shit ton, otherwise you'll die. The same holds true for the plants.

In nutrient teas, the guano/alfalfa don't decompose gradually and over time. The microbes one cultivates in the tea processes the organic matter much faster than would happen in a living soil, pretty much on steroids. The result is these nutrients are made available all at once, and we're left scratching our heads as to why our plants look sickly and burned because we've been incorrectly told "You can't burn plants with organics."

Yes, you can 100% burn and kill plants with organics.

All that balance you cultivated over the past few weeks/months becomes ruined because of these teas. Even worse if they're Phosphorus based nutrients, because then your soil is literally ruined due to being overloaded with P.

In summation, our only responsibilities are to build the pantry (soil), keep it stocked with food (top dress), keep it watered and aerated. That's it. If we are successful in maintaining these 4 conditions, the soil and plant will take care of the rest for us!
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Day 22 now, these ladies have exploded!

Once again, I'm nothing special and I'm doing nothing special. I just have tons of workhorses here in this situation.

All credit goes to my soil, my 1000w DE light, and the SIPs. I merely put everything together and facilitated things to work as they were designed to work.

All I've done in the past few days is clean things up on the bottoms of the plants, and as you can see the leaves/stems I trimmed are now on top of the soil. I covered that with my G&B 4-6-4 blend, and sprayed that with some Fish Hydrolysate. I'll be top dressing all of that with some basic EWC I sourced from the internet.

Its smooth sailing from here. All I need to do is keep the SIP reservoirs full, and top dress with the G&B 4-6-4 blend every 2 weeks from here on out.

This is the first time I've done an indoor with the DE bulb too, that shit is putting in some serious work. I've been apprehensive about using it, because you need to maintain 3-4 ft distance from it or risk burn.. but as the pictures show, the light is at the roof and is only 1-2 ft away from the canopy and I'm seeing no issues whatsoever.

I accredit this to the fact my rooms humidity is 50-70%, but I can't back this up with any fact other than my personal experience/observations.

I've got plenty of airflow, and a 720CFM fan for ventilation, however I've ordered 4 more clip fans to attach to the frame of the tent for when these buds start to fill out more. Bad humidity is only bad if your grow isn't sanitized, after all.

Only mold I'm seeing is the mycelium on the tops of my pots :)

The Strawberry Cough plant on the left in the 25g pot is legit 4ft in diameter, its a monster. Should pull 1lb minimum just by itself.

If you can't afford top dollar LED lights, go DE bulbs for sure guys. My canopies footprint is 5.5x8 sqft, and this single 1000 DE bulb is illuminating every sqft of that space no problem. I'm expecting 2-3lbs from this single light.

Nothing special or fancy here; just a good light, SIPs, and a balanced soil that will only get better as it ages.

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DonPetro

Well-Known Member
Hey, thanks for stopping in!

Definitely not traditional, but the functionality is so amazing it has me kicking myself for not doing this sooner. I can't even believe both the results, and how much easier this is on me in general. Less stress on my back/body, and less time spent watering.

The two big pots are 25g pots, sitting in a 2x2x1 cu.ft. wooden frame filled with a waterproof liner and perlite.

All of the other plants are 5g pots sitting inside of 10g buckets filled with perlite, the exception being the pot on the bottom row farthest from the left. That is a 7g pot with 2 of the Monkey OG clones pictured in the first photo.

I am utterly stupefied by the growth since implementing these SIPs into the grow. As the thread I read mentioned, there is an absurd amount of roots growing out of the fabric pots and into the reservoirs. It was a learning curve for me in terms of how full to keep the reservoirs. One of them took on this awful sulfuric smell due to having too much water in it. Had to remove the pot from the SIP, let it dry a bit, then dump the reservoir and replace it with new perlite/water the next day. Definitely won't be letting that happen again!



Perhaps I shouldn't have said drench, forgive me for the misleading choice of words. I make a diluted 1g mixture of what I listed in the "drench" list above, but the diluted 1g mixture is split between the 7 plants to avoid runoff. You don't want any runoff going into your SIP reservoirs, as they'll cause anaerobic conditions as I described above and that's definitely no good.

Glad the information is of use to you friend, I pretty much just want to display the results one can achieve with a simple soil. This is pretty much a variation of Coots'/Cornell University's soil mix, but it takes into account both soil compaction and my mediocre source of compost.



Of course! Just depends on your pot sizes.

I'll try to get some better photos of the 5-7g SIPs that are in the 10g buckets. I got the 10g buckets from my local Family Dollar, they're $5 a piece. Cheaper than Rubbermaid totes, however they can be used too.

You pretty much only need something that can hold perlite and water, and you want to fill the reservoir up to the last 1-2 inches from the top of the reservoir. You absolutely do NOT want them sitting in water, just on top of the perlite.

Doesn't really matter what you use to hold the water and perlite, so long as its not going to leak on you and can hold water properly.

You can technically build a frame that fits flush with a grow tent. Say your tent is a 4x4, you can build a 4x4 frame out of wood and line it with a tarp or pond liner. Fill it with perlite and water, then set your pots/bed on top of it. The biggest issue here, however is cost.

This is ultimately an individual preference. If you don't mind the cost of such a large frame/reservoir, it will be much easier/simple filling a single reservoir for a large bed or multiple pots as opposed to filling multiple individual reservoirs. Both will work just fine though.

People don't tend to believe me when I say this, but when growing indoors there comes a point of diminishing returns when referencing the "bigger the pot, bigger the plant" rule. I'll try to get more photos tonight, but I'll show close ups of 2 of the Strawberry Cough plants. Same pheno, but one is in the 25g pot and the other in a 5g pot.

For instance, the 5g plant is over half the size of the 25g plant, but uses 20% of the soil! Unless you are vegging for 2-3 months you will never have enough root mass to take full advantage of 10g+ worth of soil in an indoor grow.

Take most people growing in a 4x4 tent for instance. You can grow a single monster plant in that space, and spend 2+ months vegging, making for 4 months from clone to harvest. Or, you can put 4 plants in that same space, spend 1 month vegging, and now you're harvesting every 3 months instead of 4. That extra month adds up. Its the difference between 3 and 4 harvests a year!




The 2 big plants in the back are 25g pots, the rest are in 5g pots with the exception of the one 7g pot holding 2 plants in it.

I haven't used supersoil of any sort since 2014. Like many others, I found it hard to believe that such a simple recipe could outperform a "super" soil. Then I tried it.

Having an entire laundry list of inputs, (and hot inputs at that!) tends to cause more harm than good. Consider this, one's plant will only be as good as said plant's roots.

Hot ingredients like Blood/bone meals and guanos provide a quality end product, don't get me wrong. But the growth conditions are anything but optimal when compared to inputs like Neem and Crab meals. This is because of the rate at which they react with the carbon source (peat moss/coco) to decompose.

Light ingredients like Neem, Crab, and Kelp meals decompose gradually where as "hot" ingredients like guanos, blood/bone/alfalfa meals decompose rapidly. Rapid decomposition can result in temps of over 130F, literally scorching your roots and burning your plants by proxy.

This becomes even more problematic when these inputs have high sources of Phosphorus and Potassium, completely throwing the balance of one's soil out of whack. If your P or K is above a 6, it is much too high and will hurt more than it will help. High nitrogen isn't the worst thing, because your soil microbes and the decomposition process will make use of the extra nitrogen. They need it, in fact. However, excess P and K is the leading cause of failure in a living soil in my experience.

This is why I prefer not only using lighter inputs, but consistently top dressing with them as opposed to overloading the soil itself. Consider how it works in a forest. While the soil is initially full of nutritional content, it also gets a consistent "top dress" in the form of foliage falling from the canopy and onto the base of the plant, thereby decomposing and replenishing the soil.

For perspective, my veg and flower NPK ratios with this mix are 10-6-6 and 4-6-4 respectively.
How did you determine those NPK #'s? Did you have a soil test done?
 

myke

Well-Known Member
I’m getting similar spots from your Epsom/Si spray. I think I’m a little strong lol.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
How did you determine those NPK #'s? Did you have a soil test done?
No sir, they're approximations based on the NPK values of the inputs I use during veg/flower respectively. Obviously not as accurate as a soil test would be (which I've not done due to this being my 1st run with this new mix), but I'm more concerned with the ratios than the specific numbers themselves. I'll likely do a soil test after I finish this grow out, but my only option at the moment is the SoilSavvy kit from Amazon due to living in the middle of nowhere. I've heard good things about them though.

Not sure how I fucked it up, but the veg is actually 10-7-5, not 10-6-6. Neem is 6-1-1, and G&B mix is 4-6-4. My mistake there.

Flower, I only use the 4-6-4 mix. I replace Neem with Karanja for the 0 NPK it provides. I do use Fish Hydrolysate (2-4-1), but rather sparingly so as not to overload the P in the soil. I foliar with the fish once a month, and I spray my 4-6-4 top dress with a little of the fish too.


I’m getting similar spots from your Epsom/Si spray. I think I’m a little strong lol.
Can be a little nerve-wracking the first time you see it, but its no big deal in my experience. Even if one doesn't use Epsom in the foliar, the Silica can still produce spots as well.
 

JHake

Well-Known Member
Great thread kratos. You've been helpful to me on many of my threads and it's pretty good to see how you do your grow.

Wanted to hit you with a question:

One of my main amendments is a 5-7-15 dry commercial fert in pellet form; composed of cow manure, seadbird guano and beet vinasse.
I used it on the mix and as a top dress.
Thing is that one my outdoor plants seems frequently hungry for K.

And i'm surprised that the fert is rather hot regarding it's NPK value but the plant seems to not get enough of it. I top dress evert 7-10 days.
It doesn't happen in my indoor plant (same strain and same soil mix) what i guess is due to the outdoor plant being pretty bigger than the indoors one.

Do you think this is due to the fast release nature of this fertilizer compared to slower ones like neem meal?
 
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