ChronicWonders.
Well-Known Member
Correct. It’s pointless to run the 730 while running your other LEDs. 680-700 for Emerson effect and you can run those during lights on. Then after lights out the 730 for a couple minutes to work the phytochromes.
Testing HLG's far red light
- Thread starter Thegermling
- Start date
Airwalker16
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
Allowing for an extra .5-1HR more of light for a 12.5/11.5 or 13/11 schedule.
Thegermling
Well-Known Member
Looks like Ill have to try that after the party cup challenge LOL. If I remember captmorgan said 12/12 first two weeks, then 13.5-14/10 for a couple weeks for weight, and then back to 12/12 for the last two weeks should work too. Then groerrhad a 11.5/12.5 schedule, I believe, and that worked for faster finish as well. Captmorgan also tried 12/12 with far red at the end and it still finished faster. So, Ill report back on the 12/12 schedule for now on this thread in the meantime.
On the third day of far red and I see the pistils coming out already. Cant remember any strain ive grown being that fast. There were no pistils on it when I threw it in there.
I remeber captmorgan saying hed seen some pistils pop out on some as fast as 3-5 days on the far red at the end with 5 min. I turned down the time to 2 mins. She has stretched some.
Airwalker16
Well-Known Member
Never been able to use any less than 15mins of far red on account of the timers. I oughtta buy a Titan.
grotbags
Well-Known Member
? plenty of people run the 730nm led for the emerson effect during lights on, then for a few minutes after lights out or however long it takes to get to 4000umolms for end of day treatment. i have read that 680-700nm might be better for the emerson effect but i didnt think anyone made any diodes in that range so thats why everyone uses 730?.
again correct me if im wrong im still new to all this.
Thegermling
Well-Known Member
This timer is good for seconds https://www.amazon.com/Multifunctional-Infinite-Programmable-Appliances-Energy-saving/dp/B01G6O28NA/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1548357426&sr=8-4&keywords=cycle+timer
It comes with an instruction manual its hard to use without reading that manual LOL.
I use this timer (https://www.amazon.com/AgroMax-10-Second-99-Hour-Digital-Short/dp/B06W2H4MVD/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1548357630&sr=8-15&keywords=cycle+timer) for drip irrigation and it can be programmed to start once lights are out (can also be set to work on day and night and day setting thanks to the photo cell it has). Its more pricey but WAY easier to use than the first one. It can also go down to seconds.
Both timers have little lights on them so I put double or some black gorilla tape over the lights so that doesnt disrupt the light cycle of plants.
Thegermling
Well-Known Member
yes some people run 670 with 720 for emerson effect at a certain ratio. Im not sure what ratio it is because im only playing around with far red right now. Emerson effect is best used with ppf of max 500-600 (somewhere around there). Any higher above that (im at 800ppf) and emerson effect isnt as effective from what ive read. Im sure alot of growers here are well above me even.
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
Wrong! The Emerson effect is the strongest at the wavelengths you've mentioned but it also occurs when you use 660 and 730nm or other combi's. And warm white light already has a lot of deep red in it. This means that the Emerson effect also occurs when you add only 730nm.
Think on CRI80 vs. CRI90... CRI90 is up to a week faster and most of the time without loss in yield even though it has less PAR. Thats because of twice as much far-red, mate.
In mother natur the plants get much more far-red like you think. In strong sunlight the red:far red ratio is ~55:45% and the phytochromes are constantly switched from its active to its inactive state(Phy-red to Phy-far-red and back to Phy-red), on and off, on and off, all day long!
Indoors without far-red the plants only get deep red and all the phytochromes are switched to Phy-far red(inactive state) and they only switch them back to it's active state at night. This cause and imbalance between photosynthesis system I and II. So in the end far-red in not driving photosynthesis but it evens out the two PS systems and this wqy it cause more efficient photosynthesis.
The emerson effect occurs always even at higher light levels but the effect is stronger in low light conditions. So even with 1000μMol/s there is a small effect. But far-red has other benefits like you can read in the science paper below. I'm pretty sure all these effects work hand in hand and when you remove something the plant has to compensate it as far as possible. If its impossible, like with missing far-red, it will cause an imbalance.
There is only one rule when using far-red over the day. It has to be less than red. With a red: far red ratio of 45:55% you would cause SAS(shade avoidance syndrome) cause the plant would "think" she would stand in the shade. In shade there is always more far-red..
In the science paper below they have used up to 90μMol/s/m² additional far-red with measurable results. I've currently ~50μMol/s/m² of far-red in my tent(~850μMol/s/m² total at 14"), one half is coming from 8pcs CRI90 COB's the other half from 10w extra far-red and it works very well without causing much more stretch. They stretch out a little earlier, yes, but final end height is about the same... Same like under CRI90..
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
690nm LED's exsist since a while but till now they don't reach deep-red efficiency and they are much more expensive.
In the end all wavelength gets converted internally to 680(PS-I) and 700nm(PS-II) to drive the PS system. The closer the light the plants recieve is to these wavelengths the more efficient it drives PS because it's less effort to convert it. Blue light is needed for signalling and green light is used in deeper areas below the canopy while red and blue wavelength are mostly used directly on the canopy.
ChronicWonders.
Well-Known Member
So say I was running an Emerson board and far red. I run them both during lights on and hit them with the far red after lights out still?
grotbags
Well-Known Member
if your emerson board is the correct ratio deep red to far red then i would run just that during the on period, then at lights out use just 730 far red to put em to sleep, that is presuming that your far reds are separate to your emerson board.
if all the reds are on one board and they cant be driven by individual channels then you are kind of stuck, using the emerson board with all the reds on after lights out for a few minuites wont put them to sleep like just the 730nm will.
Thegermling
Well-Known Member
Yes. The emerson boards sold at rapidled can be adjusted with a controller (dont know which one though) to have just the far reds turn on at night after the deep reds and far reds during the day for emerson.
@Randomblame Is it also true that plants need 2 hours not just to go to sleep (compared to 5 min with far red) but 2 hours to wake up too? If I remember in the far red thread 660nm can be used to wake them up? Or is it less time with 90 cri too? I have 80cri boards with lm301b.
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
White already contains all wavelength incl. deep-red so plants will woke up immediately when light goes on. No need to start with 660nm only. Just switch them all on at the same time ..
The LDD's on this little circuit boards are 5v pwm dimmable and the emerson boards also have their own drivers. To control them you could for instance use an aquarium controller like the Bluefish controller from rapidled(200$) or the HurricaneX from stevesled(~100$) but there are also cheaper solutions like the pwm controller from pacificlightingconcepts (50 or 70$ incl. HUB but don't remember the name).
BTW, a reef controller with 5v and 10v support like the Bluefish or the one from PLC can be also used to control Meanwells HLG or ELG B series drivers. Pretty easy to simulate sun rise/sun set with a reef controller. HurricaneX needs a little 10$ extension board for 10v pwm compatibility.
The LDD's on this little circuit boards are 5v pwm dimmable and the emerson boards also have their own drivers. To control them you could for instance use an aquarium controller like the Bluefish controller from rapidled(200$) or the HurricaneX from stevesled(~100$) but there are also cheaper solutions like the pwm controller from pacificlightingconcepts (50 or 70$ incl. HUB but don't remember the name).
BTW, a reef controller with 5v and 10v support like the Bluefish or the one from PLC can be also used to control Meanwells HLG or ELG B series drivers. Pretty easy to simulate sun rise/sun set with a reef controller. HurricaneX needs a little 10$ extension board for 10v pwm compatibility.
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Randomblame
Well-Known Member
Yepp! EoD treatment is to switch phytochrome far-red back to phytochrome red which puts the plant in "sleep mode". Without far-red this process takes up to 2h. So each night the plants have ~2h more to use the stored energy to grow and recover.
If you still use the 12/12 schedule these 2h every night will cause a shortening effect. A 10 week strain has ~140h more time in rest mode thats 5,6 days. No wonder they finish up to a week earlier without loosing much yield.
You can also use these 2hours to increase the daylength. This means a ~16% higher DLI every day and more light means more yield but you would'nt profit from faster ripening. In reality it can take even longer with 14/10.
But 13/11 is a good compromise, 1h more light - 1h more night!
The 11.30/12.30h timing seems to have the highest shortening effect. I've seens strains finishing almost 2 weeks earlier and this method works especially well with haze strains an mostly sativas.
I have currently 5 mostly sativa strains in my box(bluedream, SSH, columbian gold, amnesia x bluedream and greenpoison x bluedream) and 9 weeks are already done under strict 11,5/12,5h from the beginning and most of the trichomes are already cloudy. Depending on strain it will take another one or two weeks until there is enough amber. Most of them are +12 week strains so it saves me a least a week or two.
ANC
Well-Known Member
DH48s 10 bucks or so on ebay for a rebuilt unit with a rackmount socket.
https://www.ebay.com/p/Dh48s-s-AC-220v-Repeat-Cycle-SPDT-Time-Relay-With-Socket-Dh48s-Series-220v-S/903291338
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Randomblame
Well-Known Member
I'm using 5$ Sonoff timers and can set up to 4 on/off times down to 1 minute each day. They can be used for watering, EoD far-red treatment, for up to 4 UVB treatments or just for the main light cuz the built-in relays can handle up to 10amps.
I've a few of them(single and dual channel Sonoffs) and most of the time they work pretty good.
Sometimes when they update the servers the app is blocked and can not connect but this usually takes only a few hours.
They even hold their programming even if you switch them completely off.
I've a few of them(single and dual channel Sonoffs) and most of the time they work pretty good.
Sometimes when they update the servers the app is blocked and can not connect but this usually takes only a few hours.
They even hold their programming even if you switch them completely off.
OLD MOTHER SATIVA
Well-Known Member
ok then you have done tests yourself..
you must have some opinion on what the reds brought to your grow or did i miss your thread...
you have been here for years..
how about an opinion for the people who are interested here???
InTheValley
Well-Known Member
Your a freakin wizard RandomBlame, this is exactly why, A- I use a Far-red (730nm) Puck all day, B- why I see great growth and trich developement?ala?frost under 600 PAR, as Ive stated a few times recently. I have buds that get like 100 PAR, and are sooooooo frosty.
Emerson+500PAR+Perfect VPD+Mag+CO2=HOLY GOODNESS.
as far as SAS, Wouldnt that be thrown out the window with just a single plant? Heard thats why its good to plant cover plants in your pots, because THOSE would take the SAS thus reducing the chance for it to have any effect on the main plant.
I personally love the stretch, especially with COBs, and scrogs.
I use just the small far-red puck, in a 3.5x3.5 area and works just fine.
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OneHitDone
Well-Known Member
OneHitDone
Well-Known Member
Post of the year, much respect brother!!
