Spidermite spray causing more damage than good, what's next?

I have to do this post in 2 postings to give all the info......PLEASE READ and find the TRUTH!!

SSHZ said:

I'm 99% sure Forbid comes with warnings that it's only to be used on ornamentals.....which basically means not for human consumption in any manner i.e. eating, smoking, etc.

Found it, here's what it says on the warning label:

"RESTRICTIONS Do not use on vegetable gardens. Do not use on plants intended for use as feed or forage. Not for use in commercial greenhouses or nurseries, or on fruit or nut trees"

The above means it can cause cancer if consumed. I've used it, it worked temporarily, BUT it's dangerous if consumed. Here's the entire label if you care to read it all:

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/msds/Forbid 4F Ornamental Label.pdf

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WRONG!
Forbid is used on strawberries and other foods as the primary miticide.....
How about you Read this I posted to someone else who simply reads labels.

Hmm, Well then. I say you didn't actually look up shit!

You looked at the product label. That does NOT contain actual toxic effects. It contains WARNINGS to be printed at the whim of the FEDERAL government that had LITTLE to do with actual research done on the actual contents of the bottle.
This is not a systemic pesticide!
It is made from an organic acid that is translaminar (that means it goes on the leaf and travels from the leaf surface to the bottom of the leaf).
The acid blocks the lipid fat absorbed by and used buy the bug. It dries them out them at all stages of growth,,even eggs!
It is listed by the Federal government as on the CAUTION list. NO KNOWN HARMFUL EFFECTS ON HUMANS!

As part of FEDERAL regulations. The use of cover clothing and what to do with it is a STANDARD list from CAUTION level to WARNING level. The list tells you to use respirators when you get to the DANGER level and above.
It is used on FRUIT and VEGGIES at concentrations HIGHER then in FORBID (12 fl oz per acre per season) by the exact SAME chemical (OBERON 2SC is the brand name for this one) in a HIGHER per acre per season (48 fl oz per acre per season) !
The reason your NOT to use FORBID on food crops is that it's not at the right mix concentration in that form (It's not BOTTLED for it! Federal law says you must use what it's bottled for or your in violation of Federal law) !!!

So then SSHZ.......Your using LESS spiromesifen (Forbid 4F) on your MM plant,,,,drum roll,,,,THEN ON THE FOODS YOU EAT!

If you are going to research actual toxic effects of FORBID 4 F.
YOU NEED TO LOOK THAT UP!
NOT the generic Federally MANDATED label!!!! That tells you how to USE it under Federal guide lines!

So then, Let me list RESULTS from a study by the CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF PESTICIDE REGULATION

READ THIS and LEARN THE TRUTH!
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/registration/ais/publicreports/5858.pdf

How about reading this petition to the EPA - Be SURE to read page 4 very carefully as it lists all the FOOD STUFFS that are treated with Oberon and Forbid.....
http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-04/documents/spiromesifen-petition.pdf

END OF PG 1

Here I list from The Federal Register

Exposure Assessment
1. Dietary exposure from food and feed uses. In evaluating dietary exposure to spiromesifen, EPA considered exposure under the petitioned-for tolerances as well as all existing spiromesifen tolerances in 40 CFR 180.607. EPA assessed dietary exposures from spiromesifen in food as follows:

i. Acute exposure. Quantitative acute dietary exposure and risk assessments are performed for a food-use pesticide, if a toxicological study has indicated the possibility of an effect of concern occurring as a result of a 1-day or single exposure. No such effects were identified in the toxicological studies for spiromesifen; therefore, a quantitative acute dietary exposure assessment is unnecessary.

ii. Chronic exposure. In conducting the chronic dietary exposure assessment EPA used the food consumption data from the USDA 1994-1996 and 1998 Cumulative Survey of Food Intake by Individuals, CSFII. As to residue levels in food, EPA assumed tolerance-level residues for all commodities except for the leafy-green and leafy-Brassica vegetable subgroups (4A, 4B, and 5B), spearmint and peppermint tops and oil, and tea. For these commodities, residues were also based on tolerance levels; however, a correction factor was applied to the tolerance levels to account for BSN 2060-4-hydroxymethyl metabolites of spiromesifen included in the risk assessment for these commodities. The additional metabolites, BSN 2060-4-hydroxymethyl and BSN 2060-4-hydroxymethyl-glucoside, were observed in the metabolism studies of lettuce only, comprising 21% of the total radioactive residues. Since the toxicity of the BSN 2060-4-hydroxymethyl metabolites is expected to be comparable to the parent compound, it was included in the risk assessment for leafy crops (including tea, subgroups 4A, 4B, and 5B and spearmint and peppermint tops and oil). To account for this additional exposure, the recommended tolerance level was multiplied by a correction factor of 1.3X, where 1.3 = (Metabolites in Risk Assessment)/(Metabolites in Tolerance Expression; concentrations from the lettuce metabolism study). Dietary Exposure Evaluation Model (DEEM) 7.81 default processing factors and 100 percent crop treated were assumed.

iii. Cancer. Based on the data summarized in Unit III.A., EPA has concluded that spiromesifen does not pose a cancer risk to humans. Therefore, a dietary exposure assessment for the purpose of assessing cancer risk is unnecessary.

iv. Anticipated residue and percent crop treated (PCT) information. EPA did not use anticipated residue and/or PCT information in the dietary assessment for spiromesifen. As discussed in Unit III.C.1.ii., for the leafy-greens and leafy Brassica greens subgroups (4A, 4B, and 5B) and spearmint and peppermint tops and oil, and tea, the residue values were adjusted upward to account for the metabolite BSN 2060-4-hydroxymethyl (free and conjugated).

2. Dietary exposure from drinking water. The Agency used screening level water exposure models in the dietary exposure analysis and risk assessment for spiromesifen in drinking water. These simulation models take into account data on the physical, chemical, and fate/transport characteristics of spiromesifen. Further information regarding EPA drinking water models used in pesticide exposure assessment can be found at http://www.epa.gov/oppefed1/models/water/index.htm.

Based on the Provisional Cranberry Model and Screening Concentration in Ground Water (SCI-GROW) models the estimated drinking water concentrations (EDWCs) of spiromesifen for chronic exposures for non-cancer assessments are estimated to be 188 ppb for surface water and 86 ppb for ground water.

Modeled estimates of drinking water concentrations were directly enteredinto the dietary exposure model. For chronic dietary risk assessment, the water concentration of value 188 ppb was used to assess the contribution to drinking water.

3. From non-dietary exposure. The term “residential exposure” is used in this document to refer to non-occupational, non-dietary exposure (e.g., for lawn and garden pest control, indoor pest control, termiticides, and flea and tick control on pets).

Spiromesifen is currently registered for the following uses that could result in residential exposures: Indoor and outdoor uses for the control of mites and whiteflies on ornamental plants in and around areas such as parks, golf courses, recreational areas, and residential and commercial buildings. EPA assessed residential exposure using the following assumptions: Residential handler inhalation exposure was assessed for adults mixing/loading/applying spiromesifen using handheld equipment to ornamentals. Details for the residential risk exposure and risk assessment are contained in the EPA public docket EPA-HQ-OPP-2012-0038 at http://www.regulations.gov in document “Spiromesifen: Human-Health Risk Assessment for Request for Tolerance Without U.S. Registration in/on Tea” on pp.15-19.

Further information regarding EPA standard assumptions and generic inputs for residential exposures may be found at http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/science/USEPA-OPP-HED_Residential SOPs_Oct2012.pdf.

4. Cumulative effects from substances with a common mechanism of toxicity. Section 408(b)(2)(D)(v) of FFDCA requires that, when considering whether to establish, modify, or revoke a tolerance, the Agency consider “available information” concerning the cumulative effects of a particular pesticide's residues and “other substances that have a common mechanism of toxicity.”

EPA has not found spiromesifen to share a common mechanism of toxicity with any other substances, and spiromesifen does not appear to produce a toxic metabolite produced by other substances. For the purposes of this tolerance action, therefore, EPA has assumed that spiromesifen does not have a common mechanism of toxicity with other substances. For information regarding EPA's efforts to determine which chemicals have a common mechanism of toxicity and to evaluate the cumulative effects of such chemicals, see EPA's Web site at http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/cumulative.

Want to read the whole thing?

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2013/01/16/2013-00728/spiromesifen-pesticide-tolerances

Now then, wasn't that informative! NO CANCER!!!! NO TOXIC EFFECTS ON HUMANS!!!!!

SO then,,,,
The next time you make comment conjecture on the use of a product. I suggest you research the PRODUCT and NOT the LABEL!!!

Use the Forbid 4F and CURE your problem!

I get tired of bone heads and know it all's NOT reading the science!

SORRY folks,,,,,I'm ticked off!

Bottom line is FORBID WORKS when nothing else will any more! It is listed that mites are now quickly becoming IMMUNE to 28 different substances used to attempt to kill or control them! NEEM is on the TOP of that list, followed quickly by your other plant extracts.

IF you want to KILL those mites and be DONE with it! Get the Forbid and use it at 8 drops per gallon.
Spray lightly on the top of the leaf surface's and wait 7-10 days and it's all over.......I would suggest you use a Pyth based mix to spray down your area and all it's surface's........Don't have to, but you may have a reinfestation in 18-20 days, from mites not in contact with your plants durring that time......In other words cleaning your area is paramount to keeping them away!

DOC

Thanks for posting the info @Dr. Who . Thought about posting the Forbid/Oberon/product concentration info but I just said fuck it. Sad that folks are swayed by anecdotal tales of "master growers" and not the science.

A peer reviewed paper from the prestigious European Food Safety Authority discussing spiromesifen safety in a range of food crops:

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/2879.htm

OOHH! Nice one!
Everyone should read that one too!
The E.U. is way fussier then we are!

Dr. Who said:

OOHH! Nice one!
Everyone should read that one too!
The E.U. is way fussier then we are!

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Exactly!

I can't discount anything you said other than these following points:

1. Forbid has a long residual activity while degrading very slowly. Used on plants in their veg stage, it's probably fine. Do not use on flowering plants.
2. It's says on the label not for use on Vegetables or Fruit trees. Better safe then sorry.
3. I have used it a few times over the last 3 years. It did not wipe out my mite problem. Neither did Avid.
4. It costs $289 for 8 oz. You can buy smaller amounts on Ebay and such, but you don't truely know what you are getting since it's not in it's original packaging. I know of someone who repackages these types of products on Ebay and purposely delutes the fluids with water to make more $$$$$$$.
5. It can be hard on plants, with leaf deformity. Sometimes, but not always. It gets worse when you are using multiple applications of different products.

Other than that, go for it. Personally, the Azamax/Monterey mix was the only thing I used that got me over the hump and ended my mite problem.


Also......after doing some additional research I should add these two points:

1. You should not apply Forbid more than 3 times per crop...........per Bayer.

2. Forbid is more effective against eggs than adult mites..........per Calif Dept of Agriculture.

i got rid of mites about 4 years ago and knock on wood ive been clean since. first i put a no pest strip in.. the best time of the year to fight them is when its cold. colder the better because they reproduce slower. i used a spray which was a combo of sns217 and azamax. i sprayed twice a week. its best to spray on tiny plants.. because you have a higher chance of spraying everything.. on big plants you can miss one tiny spot and that can be a problem. i recommend having no plants in flower.. taking new clones, and once they are rooted begin treatment.. get rid of the mother plants as well. keep only the little clones. when you cut the clones you should be sure to rinse the bottoms of the leaves very well, you should be able to blow all the mites off, and they should look clean. problem is theres always going to be 1 rogue egg that may hatch.. but regardless, you root the sprayed clean cutting.. dont treat it while its rooting. itll stress it too much. once rooted, transplant into soil and begin treatment twice a week. every 3-4 days. spray with the lights off or raise the lights up.. you arent focusing on aggressive plant growth right now, the main goal is mite eradication, so just enough light to keep them alive. once they're big enough to cut clones from, repeat the cycle.. rinse undersides of leaves very well.. root cuttings, and then begin treatment and toss the old plants that you cut clones from.. you should be mite free at this point..BUT keep treating twice a week all through veg.. you can now transition these plants into flower.. but keep spraying with azamax only for the first 3-4 weeks of flower.. then keep spraying your vegging plants with azamax only for 2-3 rounds following just as preventative.. once you've had 2-3 rounds mite free.. its safe to stop treatment if you'd like.. but you can always continue with an azamax spraying once a week for preventative if you'd like.

sns217 kills mites on contact. does nothing to eggs. azamax does nothing to mites, it penetrates the eggs and new hatchlings reproduce slowly or not at all. it basically stunts/damages the reproduction cycle.

key is to stay consistent.. dont slip up even for a day. and it works best in cold temps. during summer time its really really hard to gain control because they reproduce so fast in the heat.

Regarding Dr. Who's comments, he is incorrect in some of his assumptions which I'll address. But first off buddy, smoke a bowl and chill. I stand by my initial claim that I was unable to wipe out my mite problem using Forbid, and I stand by that. I was able to completely (and finally) end the issue with the Azamax/Monterey.

1. "The acid blocks the lipid fat absorbed by and used buy the bug. It dries them out them at all stages of growth,,even eggs!
It is listed by the Federal government as on the CAUTION list. NO KNOWN HARMFUL EFFECTS ON HUMANS!"

My comment: It's considered a "minimal" risk as of now but probably has not be studied long enough yet to find out the long-term effects. Many of these types of products are initially cleared of any risks and then 10-20 years later are shown to cause cancer, etc.

More to follow when I have the time ........

Best way to get rid of the prob is to start over. Remove all plants and soil they grow in. Wait a few months and begin again. I have only ever used Forbid and Floromite. Mites will get into your grow room throuh contaminated soil or as hitch hikers on infected plants

SSHZ is the only person that actually gave me what I was looking for - A complete technique on removing all mites, what worked for him, etc. And still - to this last posting - SSHZ is the only one thats given a step by step guide to removing mites for good. That's what I asked for. Not what product "powns" the other product, or what product is better for europeon strawberries or what ever. lol.

I dont know why the dudes going on about the Forbid are so worked up. It's almost like they get mad each time someone doesn't take their advice right away.

I'm sure there are many products that work equally good. This place should be about helping, not about inflating one's ego. (SSHZ/Some Guy this isn't directed towards you, you've been nothing but helpful).

Dannyboy - I did, like a year ago. they came back lol. Not a option to just cut and start new for me. I have a perpetual grow so I have many stages of growth as well, so to stop it would mean stop like 6-8 months of staging process, and really, the plants will survive, I keep getting rid of them, its more to prevent them from coming back. I believe I have a preventative spraying plan to stop them from coming back now. Appreciate your help though.

SSHZ - I honestly have no clue about the mites, I didn't look before I slaughtered - Trust me I don't discriminate. I remember them being white almost yellowish dots, lil webs everywhere, and a pain in my ass lol. I got them from a dispensary (one that I haven't been back to since).

I find if you bottom feed in coco and let the top layer of coco dry out mites and thrips can't lay eggs as successfully and keeps them manageable without any loss of yield. You could get rid of every mite above the soil but still have thousands of eggs under the soil/coco. Stuff any pesticides going near anything I'll consume

You could even do a feed of h2o2 instead of cannazym 2 choke em out and sterilise the medium

wizzileaks said:

I find if you bottom feed in coco and let the top layer of coco dry out mites and thrips can't lay eggs as successfully and keeps them manageable without any loss of yield. You could get rid of every mite above the soil but still have thousands of eggs under the soil/coco. Stuff any pesticides going near anything I'll consume

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Mites lay eggs on the underside of the plants leaves....

SSHZ said:

Regarding Dr. Who's comments, he is incorrect in some of his assumptions which I'll address. But first off buddy, smoke a bowl and chill. I stand by my initial claim that I was unable to wipe out my mite problem using Forbid, and I stand by that. I was able to completely (and finally) end the issue with the Azamax/Monterey.

1. "The acid blocks the lipid fat absorbed by and used buy the bug. It dries them out them at all stages of growth,,even eggs!
It is listed by the Federal government as on the CAUTION list. NO KNOWN HARMFUL EFFECTS ON HUMANS!"

My comment: It's considered a "minimal" risk as of now but probably has not be studied long enough yet to find out the long-term effects. Many of these types of products are initially cleared of any risks and then 10-20 years later are shown to cause cancer, etc.

More to follow when I have the time ........

Click to expand...

You also said this - ""RESTRICTIONS Do not use on vegetable gardens. Do not use on plants intended for use as feed or forage. Not for use in commercial greenhouses or nurseries, or on fruit or nut trees"

The above means it can cause cancer if consumed. I've used it, it worked temporarily, BUT it's dangerous if consumed".
If you actually read the papers I linked above, you would have read that there is NO cancer concerns, 0, none......It does not cause Cancer.



You used it wrong. Or your buddy that sells it on ebay as a rip off sold it to you....

You don't like it - fine then, don't use it. But don't tell me I'm wrong when I list actual science!
Mites are getting harder and harder to kill off because of "tolerance" to almost everything else.....Neem products top that list. Even while Neem is slow to cause any kind of tolerance, it's hugely wide spread use is making it so.....Try Azidirachtrin the compound in Neem as an alternative to Neem it's self. Keep in mind this is not a contact killing compound.

It takes Forbid about 7 days to do it's job.....I spray the soil surface with a Pyth based spray to kill those that might be on it.

Effective life of forbid in a plant 18-20 days. That is also considered the "half" life...

It has been studied for more then 10 years and has been federal approved from 2005, and the EU since 2003 - 10+ years....Hmm, no change in toxicity yet!

Sick of Spider Mites said:

SSHZ is the only person that actually gave me what I was looking for - A complete technique on removing all mites, what worked for him, etc. And still - to this last posting - SSHZ is the only one thats given a step by step guide to removing mites for good. That's what I asked for. Not what product "powns" the other product, or what product is better for europeon strawberries or what ever. lol.

I dont know why the dudes going on about the Forbid are so worked up. It's almost like they get mad each time someone doesn't take their advice right away.

I'm sure there are many products that work equally good. This place should be about helping, not about inflating one's ego. (SSHZ/Some Guy this isn't directed towards you, you've been nothing but helpful).

Dannyboy - I did, like a year ago. they came back lol. Not a option to just cut and start new for me. I have a perpetual grow so I have many stages of growth as well, so to stop it would mean stop like 6-8 months of staging process, and really, the plants will survive, I keep getting rid of them, its more to prevent them from coming back. I believe I have a preventative spraying plan to stop them from coming back now. Appreciate your help though.

SSHZ - I honestly have no clue about the mites, I didn't look before I slaughtered - Trust me I don't discriminate. I remember them being white almost yellowish dots, lil webs everywhere, and a pain in my ass lol. I got them from a dispensary (one that I haven't been back to since).

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What ever dude.....I gave you a solution.....It works far better then ANYTHING I have tried in 40 years of growing....

SSHZ quotes opinion and conjecture from an organic point of view....That's fine,,,,,But I like the science and not the Federally mandated generic label that tells you nothing about the product inside.....
That's why myself and others look up the actual product to get the answers about what it is and if it's toxic...and should we try it.....??

The "panel" that "approves" the use of the word organic is a joke......There are things called organic that are just as questionable.Like some of the chemical products MADE by corporate reps ON that board!..
Think about these points
How about bone meals - can carry Mad cow.
How about blood meals - test positive for antibiotics
Same for feather meals
Fish products = mercury
Ever Check on the Heavy Metal contents of your Nutrient?

Oh shit! What do we do now?
You can grow Veggie if you want - that's a thread here in organics....

SSHZ has a problem with Forbid 12.5% Speromesifen and 24.5% Speromesifen Oberon SC and says it's bad and a poison.

He stated way back that it's not to be used on anything but non food plants = wrong...that's only part of a fed law on labeling and has nothing to do with the chem inside other then it's concentration % (which is lower then the one for food plants)

I simply countered with the actual science.....Bottom Line. It works when nothing else will....It does not lead to a "tolerance" in the bugs....Use as directed and be free of your mite problem ...... I have not had mites in ,,,, 6 or 7 years now...I used Forbid the last time I did....I keep my grows clean and dunk every clone that comes from anywhere other then my grows in a pyth dunk and a green cure dunk. I spray both on the media surface and I have not had a new problem with them yet again!

So then, there you are. What to use and how to use it....AND how to not get them back from outside clones.


Be damn glad you haven't got Root aphids yet.....and pray you don't.

Good luck

Mites don't lay the eggs on under the leaves, they lay them in the soil,, then when the eggs hatch they climb up the plant and eat from the underside of the leaves, as I said, I bottom feed, top of the soil dries out and mites have never ever effected my yields, as long as there's not too many and making loads of eggs and hundreds eating ya plant then ya alright

Habanero pepper spray works. It gets rid of mites, period.

It doesn't fuck your plants, it fucks the mites good and hard. There is a good recipe posted on this site awhile back by a kind person.

pretty sure i gave you step by step on how i personally defeated mites and have been mite free for a few years now.
the only difference between my success and his is i used sns217 in place of monterey's. which sns217 is safe and natural up to harvest and kills on contact. and i also gave you very sound advice about the time of the year to battle mites and how they breed way faster in high heat vs cool winters.
good luck.

Fuck I had mites once I used a rose ornamental spray in veg shits poisions as
But only stays in the plant system for 2 weeks

wizzileaks said:

Mites don't lay the eggs on under the leaves, they lay them in the soil,, then when the eggs hatch they climb up the plant and eat from the underside of the leaves, as I said, I bottom feed, top of the soil dries out and mites have never ever effected my yields, as long as there's not too many and making loads of eggs and hundreds eating ya plant then ya alright

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none of the mites I have ever seen lay eggs in the soil minus soil-mites, but those are totally different.
I have seen many, many times (me and mites go back decades) where leaves have a solitary infestation of mites, only at the tips, and eggs under the leaves.
I have dealt with two-spot, solid black mites, and the reddish/brown ones that are much much smaller but more deadly.
All of them lay their eggs on the leaves.
Bottom line is this, absolutely NOTHING will get rid of your mites completely, nothing.
The key is to minimize them and slow them down, via either a systemic approach or otherwise, but you will spray probably 10-15 times to do the job, over the course of a month or maybe longer.
That's why I have had poor luck with azamax (not to mention you can do much better with a good neem oil & emulsifier instead)
Any products using azhridactorin ( I butchered the spelling on that)
The only thing I have used with success is a fogger, and forbid.
Fog them all three times a week if its warm, twice a week if it's cold or humid.
Do that process two or three times before they go in the flower room.
Dipping them also works well, but is a pain in the ass. I used my girlfriends panthose to keep the sil from falling out when you dip them, worked well but you can only do small plants. Unless you want to buy a bunch to make a big bucket full..
I have tried it all, from habeneros, to natural tobacco sprays, to azamax, dr doom, standard pyrethrins etc, etc.
Sadly the forbid spray is the only one that works consistently.
For the record I am a not a fan of anything chemical... I grow organically and cancer freaks me out...
Plus forbid may be killing the honeybees too...

I can't believe people actually take the EPA at their word.