Should Trump be impeached?

Should the Dems move to impeach?

  • No, it will divide the country.

    Votes: 6 15.4%

  • Yes, so what if it divides the country, it already is.

    Votes: 33 84.6%
  • Total voters
    39
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
As I understand it. The proceedings in the Senate are a trial. If he is acquitted by the Senate then he can't be tried in federal courts for the same crimes.
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I would like to see this debate go somewhere. I'm on the side of "Double Jeopardy Applies", that upon impeachment by the house (since a sitting president can not be indicted) the senate trial leads to a verdict and that this verdict can not be revisited by further criminal litigation, double jeopardy. I will admit that all I have to go on is that Clinton was not tried by any courts after he left office and (my perception) that this is the case specifically because he was acquitted by the senate regarding the charges of perjury and obstruction of justice, criminal offenses.

@topcat may be correct in his assertion that the senate trial is political and not "criminal" (despite those charges being criminal offenses) and supporting this side of the debate, I point out the difference between civil and criminal proceedings. But that difference is that "the people" are not the plaintiff. In a senate trial of an impeached president, are "The People" the plaintiff or is Nanci Pelosi? The entire house of representatives? Or is the Senate Majority Whip the plaintiff? The entire Senate?
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
I would like to see this debate go somewhere. I'm on the side of "Double Jeopardy Applies", that upon impeachment by the house (since a sitting president can not be indicted) the senate trial leads to a verdict and that this verdict can not be revisited by further criminal litigation, double jeopardy. I will admit that all I have to go on is that Clinton was not tried by any courts after he left office and (my perception) that this is the case specifically because he was acquitted by the senate regarding the charges of perjury and obstruction of justice, criminal offenses.

@topcat may be correct in his assertion that the senate trial is political and not "criminal" (despite those charges being criminal offenses) and supporting this side of the debate, I point out the difference between civil and criminal proceedings. But that difference is that "the people" are not the plaintiff. In a senate trial of an impeached president, are "The People" the plaintiff or is Nanci Pelosi? The entire house of representatives? Or is the Senate Majority Whip the plaintiff? The entire Senate?
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I'll admit I don't know whether or not Trump would be immunized from trial in federal court if he is acquitted in federal court. Its too bad that Taco has been wrong so many times before that he can't be believed now. I can say for certain that Clinton wasn't subjected to criminal proceedings for lying to a federal grand jury when he left office. It was never even discussed.

Most critically to the election, an acquittal in the Senate for all intents and purposes ends the discussion of Trump's crimes for the rest of the election cycle. It gives Trump a solid claim that the whole thing was a witch hunt and for many people would cause doubt about the ability of the Democratic Congress to govern. It's clear Trump committed crimes of obstruction and Congress does not have access to evidence from the Mueller investigation nor does it have access to an underacted version of the report. So, let the investigations continue. Let the court of public opinion tell Congress when its time to begin impeachment proceedings.
 
topcat

topcat

Well-Known Member
I'm all for letting the committees carry out their inquiries, clear through the campaign season. The public needs to be educated. They won't read the book, but they'll watch the movie, that being televised hearings. However, if the impeachment clause is to be used only by one party that controls both houses of congress, I see danger in that. So, if not now, when? Never.
 
TacoMac

TacoMac

Well-Known Member
topcat said:
However, if the impeachment clause is to be used only by one party that controls both houses of congress, I see danger in that. So, if not now, when? Never.
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It was intentionally constructed that way so that it could never be abused. Think about it: if it were that easy, you'd have partisan impeachments 'round the clock.

Right now, the system is playing out exactly as the founding fathers intended it to: The committees are investigating the President for wrong doing, the president is fighting them and losing, the courts are deciding the legal aspects as we speak.

Trump is going to lose. It's only a matter of time. The founding fathers, in their wisdom, realized that the nation could survive a tyrant for a few years if they had to, but what the nation wouldn't survive is a constant political battle raging for decades on end, which is exactly what you'd have if it were that easy to impeach a president.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
topcat said:
I'm all for letting the committees carry out their inquiries, clear through the campaign season. The public needs to be educated. They won't read the book, but they'll watch the movie, that being televised hearings. However, if the impeachment clause is to be used only by one party that controls both houses of congress, I see danger in that. So, if not now, when? Never.
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I don't know, I get the impression that some US attorneys in NY want blood.
 
topcat

topcat

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
I don't know, I get the impression that some US attorneys in NY want blood.
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They're looking at criminal offences. I'm glad they are. It appears to me they are waiting until he's voted out of office. I'm thinking secret, sealed indictments.
TacoMac said:
It was intentionally constructed that way so that it could never be abused. Think about it: if it were that easy, you'd have partisan impeachments 'round the clock.

Right now, the system is playing out exactly as the founding fathers intended it to: The committees are investigating the President for wrong doing, the president is fighting them and losing, the courts are deciding the legal aspects as we speak.

Trump is going to lose. It's only a matter of time. The founding fathers, in their wisdom, realized that the nation could survive a tyrant for a few years if they had to, but what the nation wouldn't survive is a constant political battle raging for decades on end, which is exactly what you'd have if it were that easy to impeach a president.
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So, we're left with vote him out, then prosecute. I can live with that, but eliminate the "i-word" from the constitution.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Madison's version of the guarantee as introduced in the House of Representatives read: ''No person shall be subject, except in cases of impeachment, to more than one punishment or trial for the same offense.'

That's enough for me, Double Jeopardy doesn't apply. Impeach slowly, next year lol.
 
TacoMac

TacoMac

Well-Known Member
What people aren't talking about is the really big issue for Trump: the SDNY has been very, very quite the last few months. That should be terrifying to Trump. It isn't right now because of his very limited intelligence. He's very easily distracted. That, in the end, will be his undoing.

The other side of all of this is that Trump with his tariffs are beginning to piss off even the GOP leadership. If he pushes too much further and keeps hurting GOP big wigs, there will be a very small, very late night meeting where they will pop by Pelosi's office and tell her to go ahead and vote for impeachment.

Then they'll handle the rest.

So long as Trump is doing their bidding, he's safe and the GOP will protect him. But now, he's starting to cut into their livelihood and hurt their holdings.

They'll not tolerate that for very long.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Trump’s new tariffs on trade from Mexico is going to be huge if it’s carried on. It’s for a ridiculous reason but with potentially huge impacts. Reported this morning that this will add around $1300 to the cost of a new car.

Winning! Squarehole will be pedaling like mad to sell this bag of shit.
 
C

Cobra442

Member
Well, I am a newbie to rollitup but here goes... I will stand up for President Trump. He already accomplished, Scotus, ISIS Destroyed, TPP, Paris Accord, North Korea, 6 Million+ Jobs, lowest black and Hispanic unemployment EVER, lowest female unemployment in 65 yrs, largest Tax Cut, all without Democrat Help
President Trump signs an executive order implementing a federal government hiring freeze, on Jan. 23, 2017
NAFTA GONE USMCA MADE, We are now largest producer of Oil and Natural Gas in the World,
2nd Supreme Court Originalist appointed, Stock market up over 50%.
There are 7.53 Billion People in the World, yet only 327 Million in America, and still 43 million Americans living in poverty, How the whole world just come into our country and hurt the 43 million Americans who need help? Not to mention the Immigrants who took all the steps to come the proper way. The New Tariffs will pay for the Wall just like he said, He is not giving up.
Pulled troops out of Syria and used 50 Missiles to get his attention regarding Chemical weapons.
All this while at the same time, dealing with North Korea, Syria, Iran, Venezuela, China, and Russia. Deep state, Never Trumpers, Lame Stream Fake News.
He has not accept Pay for being President of the United States, from our Government...he was a Billionaire, he did not need to do this. He had he own Top Rated TV Show, He owns some of the best golf courses in the world. I am 54 years old and my whole life he has been in the news, almost always Winning.I am sure there is much more than I list here. I hope he continues to do so. God Bless President Trump and the United States of America.
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
Cobra442 said:
Well, I am a newbie to rollitup but here goes... I will stand up for President Trump. He already accomplished, Scotus, ISIS Destroyed, TPP, Paris Accord, North Korea, 6 Million+ Jobs, lowest black and Hispanic unemployment EVER, lowest female unemployment in 65 yrs, largest Tax Cut, all without Democrat Help
President Trump signs an executive order implementing a federal government hiring freeze, on Jan. 23, 2017
NAFTA GONE USMCA MADE, We are now largest producer of Oil and Natural Gas in the World,
2nd Supreme Court Originalist appointed, Stock market up over 50%.
There are 7.53 Billion People in the World, yet only 327 Million in America, and still 43 million Americans living in poverty, How the whole world just come into our country and hurt the 43 million Americans who need help? Not to mention the Immigrants who took all the steps to come the proper way. The New Tariffs will pay for the Wall just like he said, He is not giving up.
Pulled troops out of Syria and used 50 Missiles to get his attention regarding Chemical weapons.
All this while at the same time, dealing with North Korea, Syria, Iran, Venezuela, China, and Russia. Deep state, Never Trumpers, Lame Stream Fake News.
He has not accept Pay for being President of the United States, from our Government...he was a Billionaire, he did not need to do this. He had he own Top Rated TV Show, He owns some of the best golf courses in the world. I am 54 years old and my whole life he has been in the news, almost always Winning.I am sure there is much more than I list here. I hope he continues to do so. God Bless President Trump and the United States of America.
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Lol.

I see the election season is upon us already, Anatoly.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Cobra442 said:
Well, I am a newbie to rollitup but here goes... I will stand up for President Trump. He already accomplished, Scotus, ISIS Destroyed, TPP, Paris Accord, North Korea, 6 Million+ Jobs, lowest black and Hispanic unemployment EVER, lowest female unemployment in 65 yrs, largest Tax Cut, all without Democrat Help
President Trump signs an executive order implementing a federal government hiring freeze, on Jan. 23, 2017
NAFTA GONE USMCA MADE, We are now largest producer of Oil and Natural Gas in the World,
2nd Supreme Court Originalist appointed, Stock market up over 50%.
There are 7.53 Billion People in the World, yet only 327 Million in America, and still 43 million Americans living in poverty, How the whole world just come into our country and hurt the 43 million Americans who need help? Not to mention the Immigrants who took all the steps to come the proper way. The New Tariffs will pay for the Wall just like he said, He is not giving up.
Pulled troops out of Syria and used 50 Missiles to get his attention regarding Chemical weapons.
All this while at the same time, dealing with North Korea, Syria, Iran, Venezuela, China, and Russia. Deep state, Never Trumpers, Lame Stream Fake News.
He has not accept Pay for being President of the United States, from our Government...he was a Billionaire, he did not need to do this. He had he own Top Rated TV Show, He owns some of the best golf courses in the world. I am 54 years old and my whole life he has been in the news, almost always Winning.I am sure there is much more than I list here. I hope he continues to do so. God Bless President Trump and the United States of America.
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Sympathy like for new unpopular guy.
 
TacoMac

TacoMac

Well-Known Member
Cobra442 said:
lots of really wrong stuff
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Welcome new sock puppet!

Cobra442 said:
Stock market up over 50%.
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Wrong. It was 19827.25 when he took office. It is presently 24909.2 for a total increase of 25.63%. However, if he hadn't started all his tariff bullshit it would be much higher. He started all of that in June of 2018. Since then, the market has actually fallen by roughly 2%.

In other words, he was riding the wave Obama had going his first 13 months in office. Then he screwed with it and it hasn't gained a penny since.

I thought Russians were good at math. My father-in-law certainly is.

Cobra442 said:
There are 7.53 Billion People in the World, yet only 327 Million in America, and still 43 million Americans living in poverty, How the whole world just come into our country and hurt the 43 million Americans who need help?
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So, you're saying that since only 4.34% of the population of earth lives in the United States that the entire world is here?

How does that work exactly? Be specific.
 
topcat

topcat

Well-Known Member
Beelzebub bless the kidnapper-in-chief. This was a publicity stunt that went horribly wrong when he won the electoral college. Ask his so-called wife. Nah, she "...really don't care". Git yer bahbel signed by the anti-christ and free shipping with Amazon! Oh, and the stock market has lost everything it gained and more since Jan. 2018.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Cobra442 said:
Well, I am a newbie to rollitup but here goes... I will stand up for President Trump. He already accomplished, Scotus, ISIS Destroyed, TPP, Paris Accord, North Korea, 6 Million+ Jobs, lowest black and Hispanic unemployment EVER, lowest female unemployment in 65 yrs, largest Tax Cut, all without Democrat Help
President Trump signs an executive order implementing a federal government hiring freeze, on Jan. 23, 2017
NAFTA GONE USMCA MADE, We are now largest producer of Oil and Natural Gas in the World,
2nd Supreme Court Originalist appointed, Stock market up over 50%.
There are 7.53 Billion People in the World, yet only 327 Million in America, and still 43 million Americans living in poverty, How the whole world just come into our country and hurt the 43 million Americans who need help? Not to mention the Immigrants who took all the steps to come the proper way. The New Tariffs will pay for the Wall just like he said, He is not giving up.
Pulled troops out of Syria and used 50 Missiles to get his attention regarding Chemical weapons.
All this while at the same time, dealing with North Korea, Syria, Iran, Venezuela, China, and Russia. Deep state, Never Trumpers, Lame Stream Fake News.
He has not accept Pay for being President of the United States, from our Government...he was a Billionaire, he did not need to do this. He had he own Top Rated TV Show, He owns some of the best golf courses in the world. I am 54 years old and my whole life he has been in the news, almost always Winning.I am sure there is much more than I list here. I hope he continues to do so. God Bless President Trump and the United States of America.
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You like him.

Doesn't excuse criminal acts though.
 
Moses Mobetta

Moses Mobetta

Well-Known Member
Cobra442 said:
Well, I am a newbie to rollitup but here goes... I will stand up for President Trump. He already accomplished, Scotus, ISIS Destroyed, TPP, Paris Accord, North Korea, 6 Million+ Jobs, lowest black and Hispanic unemployment EVER, lowest female unemployment in 65 yrs, largest Tax Cut, all without Democrat Help
President Trump signs an executive order implementing a federal government hiring freeze, on Jan. 23, 2017
NAFTA GONE USMCA MADE, We are now largest producer of Oil and Natural Gas in the World,
2nd Supreme Court Originalist appointed, Stock market up over 50%.
There are 7.53 Billion People in the World, yet only 327 Million in America, and still 43 million Americans living in poverty, How the whole world just come into our country and hurt the 43 million Americans who need help? Not to mention the Immigrants who took all the steps to come the proper way. The New Tariffs will pay for the Wall just like he said, He is not giving up.
Pulled troops out of Syria and used 50 Missiles to get his attention regarding Chemical weapons.
All this while at the same time, dealing with North Korea, Syria, Iran, Venezuela, China, and Russia. Deep state, Never Trumpers, Lame Stream Fake News.
He has not accept Pay for being President of the United States, from our Government...he was a Billionaire, he did not need to do this. He had he own Top Rated TV Show, He owns some of the best golf courses in the world. I am 54 years old and my whole life he has been in the news, almost always Winning.I am sure there is much more than I list here. I hope he continues to do so. God Bless President Trump and the United States of America.
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I'm curious, where did you get this disinformation?
 
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