Seattle sees fallout from $15 minimum wage, as other cities follow suit

heckler73

heckler73

Well-Known Member
mollymcgrammar said:
Ummm dude.... The problem with this is that it wont be the massive corporations getting hurt, it will be small companies.

A 15 minimum wage will destroy small contractors, restaurants, mom and pop shops.... Basically only companies with massive profit margins will be able to maintain with out a drastic price increase in their services and products.

Yeah, people will have more money and be able to afford more for these products but then nothing really changed.

I do alot of contracting work, i pay all my guys 10-15$ an hour in cash. They average 13$ an hour. If i had to pay them more, the cost for me to do a job goes up.
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Dude, like...no, dude.

Again, who are these ma and pa operations? What are they providing? Have you considered what happens to your competition with a $15/hr floor, eh?

What do you think happened to all those European nations when they switched to the Euro?
Do you think anything was disrupted by an overnight change in prices by a scalar of 2 as happened in Italy, for example? Of course it was, but was it devastating? Not really...precluding the Monetary Policy problems they inherited; however, that is a different beast from what is being discussed.

So what you are implying, ultimately, is the business acumen of the average American is so below par, "job creators" need subsidies in the form of food stamps and income supplements for their employees just so they can prop up some illusion of the capitalist ideal of success?

You are making no argument to the contrary, from what has been stated thus far. Perhaps you could clarify in more detail what you mean?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
mollymcgrammar said:
I dont like fox either, and there is definitely a huge bias on their part.

Any news outlet is a business. The sole reason for starting a business (telsa excluded) is to make money.

Also, minimum wage raises will only help if the 1% takes the diffrence from their profits. Otherwise it just means prices go up and a dollar is worth less than it was.

Also, what happens to the folks who already make 15$ an hour? Now the unskilled workers with no experience are equals to them.

Im all about raising min wage, just not that high. I also feel like if someone makes more than min wage now, and it goes up they should get a raise that reflects that.
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I disagree with all of your unbased suggestions (opinions presented as fact) except that news outlets are businesses and that everyone should get a raise if min. wage increases.
 
mollymcgrammar

mollymcgrammar

Well-Known Member
heckler73 said:
Dude, like...no, dude.

Again, who are these ma and pa operations? What are they providing? Have you considered what happens to your competition with a $15/hr floor, eh?

What do you think happened to all those European nations when they switched to the Euro?
Do you think anything was disrupted by an overnight change in prices by a scalar of 2 as happened in Italy, for example? Of course it was, but was it devastating? Not really...precluding the Monetary Policy problems they inherited; however, that is a different beast from what is being discussed.

So what you are implying, ultimately, is the business acumen of the average American is so below par, "job creators" need subsidies in the form of food stamps and income supplements for their employees just so they can prop up some illusion of the capitalist ideal of success?

You are making no argument to the contrary, from what has been stated thus far. Perhaps you could clarify in more detail what you mean?
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Sorry, lets put it like this... A small icecream stand opens up. They hire highschool kids at 7.25 an hour. They make enough in sales to get by, pay the lease, and overhead as well as make a fair profit.

Wages go up dramatically, and now the cost of payroll has doubled. Icecream prices can be raised a little, but how much can he raise them before people stop buying it?

Meanwhile the farmers who provide milk to the icecream man are raising prices to make up for the extra wages they need to pay the farm workers.

The machines that make the icecream into those nice little swirls go up a tiny bit because it now costs them more to produce. Same with the parts for repairs.

Eventually the owners close up shop.

Also, my other issue is that i do not believe that minimum wage should be equal to what some college grads earn now. I agree 7.25 is bullshit, it needs to go up, but i feel like the issue isnt what the wage is, but rather that too many employers offer minimum wage for full time work. If you have a part time min wage job, its clearly the type of job you get to make a few bucks to party. Fast food, is not meant to be a career. Im a Felon, with no education and only self taught skills and inmake a good living. If i cam do it anyone can.

Also, how many companies will ship jobs overseas to avoid this wage?
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
mollymcgrammar said:
Sorry, lets put it like this... A small icecream stand opens up. They hire highschool kids at 7.25 an hour. They make enough in sales to get by, pay the lease, and overhead as well as make a fair profit.

Wages go up dramatically, and now the cost of payroll has doubled. Icecream prices can be raised a little, but how much can he raise them before people stop buying it?

Meanwhile the farmers who provide milk to the icecream man are raising prices to make up for the extra wages they need to pay the farm workers.

The machines that make the icecream into those nice little swirls go up a tiny bit because it now costs them more to produce. Same with the parts for repairs.

Eventually the owners close up shop.

Also, my other issue is that i do not believe that minimum wage should be equal to what some college grads earn now. I agree 7.25 is bullshit, it needs to go up, but i feel like the issue isnt what the wage is, but rather that too many employers offer minimum wage for full time work. If you have a part time min wage job, its clearly the type of job you get to make a few bucks to party. Fast food, is not meant to be a career. Im a Felon, with no education and only self taught skills and inmake a good living. If i cam do it anyone can.

Also, how many companies will ship jobs overseas to avoid this wage?
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Thousands already do to avoid paying the currant min wage, so I'm thinking a lot would.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
mollymcgrammar said:
I dont like fox either, and there is definitely a huge bias on their part.

Any news outlet is a business. The sole reason for starting a business (telsa excluded) is to make money.

Also, minimum wage raises will only help if the 1% takes the diffrence from their profits. Otherwise it just means prices go up and a dollar is worth less than it was.

Also, what happens to the folks who already make 15$ an hour? Now the unskilled workers with no experience are equals to them.

Im all about raising min wage, just not that high. I also feel like if someone makes more than min wage now, and it goes up they should get a raise that reflects that.
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Wow, a whole lot of false statements can be found here.

Is profit the only reason for starting a business? Bullshit that. Profits are what keeps a business healthy, sure, but entrepreneurs are passionate about the product or service first. Focus on profits without a concept of a product or attention to customer or quality ends in disaster.

What happens to people already making the minimum wage? Well, their employer will naturally need to pay them more to keep them or provide other incentives like maybe a better more secure work environment. Something wrong with that?

Why should you be setting the minimum wage? Is it because you want to hold wages down? Why don't you pay people that work full time enough to make a living?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
mollymcgrammar said:
Also, my other issue is that i do not believe that minimum wage should be equal to what some college grads earn now. I agree 7.25 is bullshit, it needs to go up, but i feel like the issue isnt what the wage is, but rather that too many employers offer minimum wage for full time work. If you have a part time min wage job, its clearly the type of job you get to make a few bucks to party. Fast food, is not meant to be a career. Im a Felon, with no education and only self taught skills and inmake a good living. If i cam do it anyone can.

Also, how many companies will ship jobs overseas to avoid this wage?
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Also, my other issue is that i do not believe that minimum wage should be equal to what some college grads earn now. This is pretty funny. Who are you trying to protect? The college grads that might see less skilled workers earn the low pay they are getting? "Lets keep minimum wage low so that entry level college grads feelings aren't hurt." Too funny that.

I agree 7.25 is bullshit, it needs to go up, but i feel like the issue isnt what the wage is, but rather that too many employers offer minimum wage for full time work. First off, bullshit is just that and you are saying that it has to go up. Your second point is exactly why this country has to mandate a minimum. Too many people are being paid BS wages for their full time work. One easy fix -- make it so they must be paid more than BS.

If you have a part time min wage job, its clearly the type of job you get to make a few bucks to party. Fast food, is not meant to be a career.
Part time should be just that, part time. They make less because they don't work as many hours. What is your justification that they should also make less per hour? Minimum wage is just that, the base floor wage for everybody. Its a wage for entry level workers, like at fast food and low skill jobs. Common laborers have higher skill levels and people with higher skill levels will be paid more or their employers will have a hard time hanging on to them. Again why do you want to pay what you already say is a BS wage?

Regarding shipping jobs overseas, that's happening now and many companies are finding that it doesn't make for great savings. Loss in quality, theft of intellectual property. and longer product development cycles are big hurdles to overcome. Also, China and Japan have policies that constrain companies from selling products that are foreign made. Not so much for the US, why not?
 
heckler73

heckler73

Well-Known Member
mollymcgrammar said:
Sorry, lets put it like this... A small icecream stand opens up. They hire highschool kids at 7.25 an hour. They make enough in sales to get by, pay the lease, and overhead as well as make a fair profit.

Wages go up dramatically, and now the cost of payroll has doubled. Icecream prices can be raised a little, but how much can he raise them before people stop buying it?
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Okay...you can stop there.
What does the market demand for ice cream look like? Elastic or Inelastic? Maybe Unitary?
I'd suggest it is rather inelastic, meaning quantity demanded will not significantly drop relative to any modest price increase, the effect lessened further by the information for that increase being made known to the customer. I could carry this subject into the Theory of the Firm and Pareto Optimality, but suspect that would be too much of a digression, at least at this stage.

Who are the customers and what are their average incomes or sources of liquid assets? Is ice cream a vital good in daily operations (i.e. autonomous spending) or is it a part of discretionary spending?

Is there any competition to this ice cream stand? What is the response from them?

Oh SNAP (see what I did there, eh? eh? eh?)...here come Zombie Galbraith with some edutainment from the DISCO era!

 
ChrisDuke

ChrisDuke

Well-Known Member
heckler73 said:
Okay...you can stop there.
What does the market demand for ice cream look like? Elastic or Inelastic? Maybe Unitary?
I'd suggest it is rather inelastic, meaning quantity demanded will not significantly drop relative to any modest price increase, the effect lessened further by the information for that increase being made known to the customer. I could carry this subject into the Theory of the Firm and Pareto Optimality, but suspect that would be too much of a digression, at least at this stage.

Who are the customers and what are their average incomes or sources of liquid assets? Is ice cream a vital good in daily operations (i.e. autonomous spending) or is it a part of discretionary spending?

Is there any competition to this ice cream stand? What is the response from them?

Oh SNAP (see what I did there, eh? eh? eh?)...here come Zombie Galbraith with some edutainment from the DISCO era!

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That's true heckler, although even if demand doesn't fall off that doesn't mean that the amount being sold is going to off set the labor cost. Small businesses that have a small margin, like restaurants and bars in general, would need a pretty major increase in volume related to everyone having more money; just to stay afloat.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
PsicloneX said:
Yeah I dont care. I dont care that global warming was happening on Mars as well Im a fan of Co2 and weather and I like the ocean , the bigger the better .Not a fan of glaciers, been to a bunch of them .Meh . Skiing is not for me.I like gas and petroleum products and a generally warmer climate .
I am not a fan of parasitic bureaucracies and government or lapdog media .
Weak sun could offset some global warming in Europe and US – study
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/23/weak-sun-could-offset-some-global-warming-europe-us-study

What a shock !!!Just in time to explain why the sky never falls like it is supposed to . Who could have seen that coming ?
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you're a stooge.

 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ChrisDuke said:
That's why we should push down from the top versus raising the bottom.
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Good heavens, you totally missed the message in @heckler73 's post. What happens when wages and all that go with them are pushed from the top? Exactly what we are seeing now, wages fall and eventually workers live in terrible poverty. That is a recipe for what? What else was said by Galbraith in that video? The privileged are willing to risk total destruction rather than allow their own status change. Social upheaval. Do we have to repeat history again and again? What kind of solution is that?

There are alternatives to explore. One is a minimum wage that doesn't allow the privileged to impose their debauched idea of natural order. But conservatives by nature look backward and don't see alternatives, which is why they (you) are fools.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ChrisDuke said:
That's true heckler, although even if demand doesn't fall off that doesn't mean that the amount being sold is going to off set the labor cost. Small businesses that have a small margin, like restaurants and bars in general, would need a pretty major increase in volume related to everyone having more money; just to stay afloat.
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Why does this keep coming up again and again? Ok, so if a McD burger costs $4.62 in the US at today's wages ~$7-$8/hour. How much would one cost if wages were $15. The answer varies from no change to maybe a buck more, so no exact answer. However its not going to destroy their business model. Denmark minimum wage is $20/hour and the cost of a McD is $5.37. So, maybe a $15 minimum wage would increase the price of a burger by $0.70 or 15%.

Remember, everybody will experience the rise in minimum wage, so margins won't be squeezed by competition. This not exactly the disaster you predict. Its not all about price either. With this raise in wages come benefits, such as less reliance on food stamps, better nutrition for children, more money being spent in the communities where the minimum wage workers live.

We aren't talking about a major change in society due to this proposal but not the race to the bottom you seem to prefer.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ChrisDuke said:
Fog, what are you talking about? How are wages pushed down from the top?
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Maybe I misinterpreted what you said. Could you explain what you mean by "That's why we should push down from the top versus raising the bottom." Is this the old rising tide floats all boats argument?
 
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