Roots not looking too good...

Recently I have had 6 plants die on me, all seemly wilted and died within a day or two. They were watered 4x15min per day in a Ebb and Flow set up, had decent GH Flora Series Nutes and the pH was around 6, the temps were no higher then the mid 80's and the 1000w HPS light was a min distance of 18+". Even though some plants were 8-10 weeks old they had root balls that hardly dangled out of their 5" net pot, the roots looked spindly and light brown. They weren't slimy and didnt smell so I would think it is over watering and or pythium. The only other culprit I could think of would be not enough o2 in the water because if the res temps being in the 80's. Also I typically put 15+ tbsps of 3% h2o2 in the 14 gal resivor which I clean out about every 2 weeks.
Can any one shed some light on what the problem might be and how to fix it?
I just got some GH Flora Shield, so I hope it helps

Thanks in advance
Bezy

i think overwatering but then again im on my first grow. Im using a similar setup to yours and if i water my plants more than twice a day, they have overwatering symptoms

Bezy, it sounds like to me your not cycling enough. Flood, drain, and watch for a slight wilt. Note the time and set the off time to the time it took to get a slight wilt. Think about it like wet the roots, let the roots dry. You will likely be amazed after the tune up!

I don't think over watering is the problem here. My "guess" is that your temps being that high would allow the roots to dry out too much between waterings. I would try more cycles in a 24 hour period or possibly longer cycles. Keep in mind that this is just a guess and I have zero experience in ebb and flow but comparing to my temps I definitely think that the roots are drying out with that much heat combined with 3hours and 45minutes between waterings. I could be entirely wrong but there ya have it. Good luck.

Well I check the roots regularly and they always seem moist, and the guy at the Hydro store even said I may be running too many cycles at 4 per day. I have reduced to 2 15 min waterings. The plants never seem to show signs of wilting in between that time period nor do the roots look dry.
I have however finally took the temp of my reservoir and its 88 degrees with the light on! Im leaning towards high res temps = low o2 content in the water. I have since froze a 2 liter bottle of water and will see how well it brings down the temps, hopefully to bellow 75.
Im leaning towards low o2 because my larger/older plants start to get curled under leaves then the wilt and die out of no where, all of which became more prevelant as the room temps got higher.
So any more input on these ideas?

Thanks
Bezy

Wow honestly im surprised they lasted 8-10 weeks in 88 degree water, especially since you were only adding 3% h202 once every couple weeks.. I add 29% h202 every 3 or so days to my reservoir and my water temps dont ever get above 75 or so..

In my opinion lowering your temps and increasing the amount of h202 will help considerably.. Id really suggest switching over to food grade h202 as well.. It worked wonders for me when i made the switch!

Yea its looking like I should go that route, even with one 2 liter in there it didnt get bellow 80 degrees. So Im gonna drop two in their and head to the Hydro store for better H2O2

Use bleach to kill those pathogens (provided you are runniong pure mineral, not organic). Also I have found DM Zone excellent for keeping it at bay. The 3% peroxide solution you used was too small as others have said. You said you have a 1kw light on a ebb-flow table setup? Do whatever you can do to block the HID light from hitting ANY water. I think you may have an algae issue if you let the light hit the res or the tray. You can usually tell by the swamp smell.

EDIT: If you use bleach and ZONE, res temps are much less of an issue.

patlpp said:

Use bleach to kill those pathogens (provided you are runniong pure mineral, not organic). Also I have found DM Zone excellent for keeping it at bay. The 3% peroxide solution you used was too small as others have said. You said you have a 1kw light on a ebb-flow table setup? Do whatever you can do to block the HID light from hitting ANY water. I think you may have an algae issue if you let the light hit the res or the tray. You can usually tell by the swamp smell.

EDIT: If you use bleach and ZONE, res temps are much less of an issue.

Click to expand...

- I use a bleach/water mix every two weeks to clean the res and flood tray, are you suggestion I add bleach to my reservoir?
- From looking at DM Zone its the same thing as GH Flora Shield which I added to my res the other day
-Im getting some better H2O2 from the grow store as soon as I can
- I use solid colored totes from the res and flood tray with solid lids, so their is zero light penetration, as I mentioned in my first post, there are no smells or signs of algae
- It is my understanding that temps ARE a problem even with those factors, because high temps = low O2 content which leads to a whole slew of root problems.

Bezy said:

- I use a bleach/water mix every two weeks to clean the res and flood tray, are you suggestion I add bleach to my reservoir?

First cut out ANY dead roots.
Yes, initially, add ~ 5 drops/gal and ebb/flow back and forth for half an hr. Wait an hr. Do the whole thing again . The first wave will attack the dead roots, subsequent wave will attack the patho's at full strength. From there on out use 1/2 drop gallon a day.

- From looking at DM Zone its the same thing as GH Flora Shield which I added to my res the other day

I recommended ZONE because it is much more economical IMO and I noticed ZONE has a chlorine smell to it and proven to me. Personal preference. You must do a mega-dose as stated above first than use the shield.

-Im getting some better H2O2 from the grow store as soon as I can

OK but H2O2 is harsh and can kill your plants much easier than clorine if you OD , I also read somewhere that it is detrimental to iron uptake (idk where I read that, but it was more than once)

- I use solid colored totes from the res and flood tray with solid lids, so their is zero light penetration, as I mentioned in my first post, there are no smells or signs of algae
Good !! No pik so I didn't know if you were aware. It won't stink until it gets real bad and algae isn't always green initially. Just a warning

- It is my understanding that temps ARE a problem even with those factors, because high temps = low O2 content which leads to a whole slew of root problems.

Click to expand...

This table: http://www.aquatext.com/tables/oxygen.htm will show that there really is not that much of a cause/effect between temp and DO capacity, maybe 1 mg/l difference in a 10 c degree swing. The problem is lack of DO itself, so get an air stone, or an additional one in there if you think you need more DO. The act of the ebb/flow itself provides a good oxygen exchange when you consider the water movement into the tray and than that water falling into the res. Air is actually evacuated during the ebb and resupplied during drain(in a bucket system or tray full of hydroton).

The school of thought is why manipulate the environment so radically when if you could just kill them (patho's); the problem is minimized, regardless of temp. Chlorine is the #1 root rot prevention method in greenhouses. It is the most economical method of abatement. Keeping res temps down with your bottles of ice is good. I just wanted you to be aware that it is not THE critical variable, getting the oxygen IN the res is.

Google: Site=rollitup.org root rot There are as many threads on this as there are opinions to get rid of or prevent this.

I am still worried there might have been something else going on. Root Rot usually takes longer to kill a plant than what you explained. The spindly roots indicates poor growth during veg, maybe over-nuting, and the light brown color is normal from the GH micro. (GH Micro is VERY dark.) What was your nute dosage in ml/gal of G-M-B during veg? Just throwing shit out there.


EDIT: Why you failed to mention that these were in soil at one time and that this is the 3rd thread you started on the same subject is beyond me. Why waste everyone's time? Start and stay next time either in soil or go hydro, A to Z, beginning to end.

First off, thanks for the help, I did post more then one thread on this because it keeps evolving into new problems, first it was the plants with curled leaves, then they died, then a completely different plant that was hyrdo the entire time died. So now Im at a point where should be getting down to the problem here. I just went ahead with the bleach, put 15ml in my 15 gal res and topped off with water, if this doesn't fix the problem I will pick up some Zone. I have two air stones and a dual outlet pump, so I never thought O2 would be a problem, but then all these different people come at you with these different solutions on the opposite ends of the spectrum (IE Water more / water less). With the recent plants I have been going strait from clone to flowering but the ones I transfered from soil to hyrdo (I know, bad idea, but I was itchin to try the new set up) I veged for a few weeks. I want to dial in a perpetual harvest and am working on just this one hyrdo set up till I get it right, then I'm adding three more.

15ml seems like a lot of chlorine bro. I understood 5 DROPS/Gal not 5ml/gal. Where did you get that?

I put 15 ml total (1 ml per gal) also I just noticed a brownish residue on the wall of my reservoir, it doesn't smell but is concerning and the water had foam on top, which it normally doesn't. This was all before I added the bleach BTW. On a good note, I finally cut a damn hole in the wall for my a/c unit and the room is sitting at a cool 75 degrees with 50% humidity now.

PS - I've been running Gen Hyrdo nutes; 300 ml Flora Bloom, 150 ml Micro, 150 ml Floralicious, 15 ml Kool Bloom all per the Gen Hydro fee schedule for a 15 gal res

See i tried using the whole bleach thing for a while and had really shitty results with it, i used 6-8 drops a gallon and still got way bad root rot.. Food grade h202 cleared it all up for me, As far as your air pump goes, id think if your using ebb n flow your two airstones would be enough but im not sure.. I know in my 5gl bubble buckets i have 3-4 airstones in their.. That much air + h202 allowed my roots to grow super clean!

I've had less then ideal results with bleach and H2O2 in hydro, neither effectively kept root rot at bay properly. I looked up the info on DM Zone... it should work but I don't like how they knock beneficials and enzymes. IMO the best way to keep pathogens out of a root zone is a colony of symbiotic microbes, good bugs eat bad bugs for breakfast.

^yeah ive used hygrozyme before and it is kinda the same idea... I just find that dumping organic stuff in your reservoirs tend to make the ph swing all over the place versus h202 where i set it and forget it... not really i still check it everyday just to be sure, but i hardly ever have to adjust it..

Well, 1 ml of bleach per gal and regular cleaning (Every two weeks) with a water bleach spray and a good scrubbing have cured my problems, thanks for the help! I actually have nice white roots that have ventured past their net pots, and I'll be harvesting 3 plants within a week.
I looks like I was over watering as well, I reduced from 4x per day to 3x a day and now only 2x a day for 15 min each is working good for me. And I was over feeding, I switched to the lucas meathod of 8ml Micro and 16ml of Bloom per Gal and I top off the res every 2-3 days.
So I guess what ever works for you works, this works for me!