Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

guerrilla medic said:

do the lab tests determine the other ingredients in a specific brand such as fulvic/humic acids, pgrs, hormones, vitamins etc?

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Typically, no. They will tell you the macronutrients and micronutrients, but often times not the concentrations of fulvic or humic acids and never the hormones, etc. In talks with Current Culture on their Cultured Solutions, they do not use hormones or anything other than what the guaranteed analysis says. However, if you consider a product like Botanicare Fulvex, a lab analysis won't come back with the information you might need to recreate it. Personally, I will never buy a product if they can't tell me what's in it, and I figure most people here are like that as well.

MisterBlah said:

Typically, no. They will tell you the macronutrients and micronutrients, but often times not the concentrations of fulvic or humic acids and never the hormones, etc. In talks with Current Culture on their Cultured Solutions, they do not use hormones or anything other than what the guaranteed analysis says. However, if you consider a product like Botanicare Fulvex, a lab analysis won't come back with the information you might need to recreate it. Personally, I will never buy a product if they can't tell me what's in it, and I figure most people here are like that as well.

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You'd figure, but you'd likely be surprised!

GENERAL HYDROPONICS FLORA GRO 2-1-6
Potassium Nitrate: 115,296.60 mg/l
Magnesium Nitrate: 49,408.67 mg/l
Mono Potassium Phosphate: 19,228.66 mg/l

GENERAL HYDROPONICS FLORABLOOM 0-5-4
Potassium Nitrate : 115,296.60 mg/l
Magnesium Nitrate: 49408.67 mg/l
Mono Potassium Phosphate: 19228.66 mg/l

GENERAL HYDROPONICS FLORAMICRO 5-0-1
Calcium Nitrate: 263,157.90 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 21,611.34 mg/l
Ammonium Nitrate: 17,158.31 mg/l
Fe-chelated: 5,555.55 mg/l
Mn-chelated: 2,777.78 mg/l
Zn-chelated: 625.00 mg/l
Mo-Chelated: 100.00 mg/l

GENERAL HYDROPONICS HARDWATER FLORAMICRO 5-0-1
Calcium Nitrate: 113,106.30 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 21,611.34 mg/l
Ammonium Nitrate: 52,631.58 mg/l
Fe-chelated: 5,555.55 mg/l
Mn-chelated: 2,777.78 mg/l
Zn-chelated: 935.00 mg/l
Mo-Chelated: 225.00 mg/l

GENERAL HYDROPONICS MAXIGRO 10-5-14 (This is a solid blend, percentages, by weight, are listed)
Calcium Nitrate: 33.4535%
Potassium Nitrate: 22.1904%
Magnesium Sulfate: 21.6196%
Mono Potassium Phosphate: 10.1851%
Ammonium Nitrate: 6.9320%
Potassium Sulfate: 2.0419%
Fe-chelated: 0.7062%
Mn-chelated: 0.2943%
Zn-chelated: 0.0800%

GENERAL HYDROPONICS MAXIBLOOM 5-15-14 (This is a solid blend, percentages, by weight, are listed)
Calcium Nitrate: 27.8779%
Potassium Nitrate: 6.9821%
Magnesium Sulfate: 29.7889%
Mono Potassium Phosphate: 30.5552%
Magnesium Carbonate: 2.8159%
Potassium Sulfate: 2.0272%
Fe-chelated: 0.5885%
Zn-chelated: 0.0599%

Cultured Solutions UC Roots
This is a 0.028% solution of hypchlorous acid. Most likely created via a solution of sodium hypochlorite. There's been a fair amount of documentation in the hydroponics world about the uses and benefits of sodium hypochlorite. Look for them somewhere else.

To make your own 0.028% hypochlorous acid solution from a 12.5% sodium hypchlorite solution by weight (15% by volume), add 7mL per gallon.

12.5% sodium hypochlorite: 7mL/gal (1.86mL/L)

Dumme said:

My question was completely rhetorical, and not meant as a debate. I can agree its an interesting read. I just failed to understand why to copy a formula of another for and exact replica, but that's ok. By all means, carry-on as I humbly bow out of the thread.

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I actually think this is a perfectly reasonable question to have. What is the point of copying someone else? Well, if the exact same results can be achieved at a lower cost, wouldn't you choose the lower cost option? That's what I'm trying to show here. That the markups in all these bottled fertilizers are ridiculous and there is a way around them.

In addition, the ability to have more control over your grow is important, IMHO. I have no interest in telling someone else how to grow their plants, but I do have interest in giving people the resources to be smarter about how they grow their plants.

MisterBlah said:

Maybe I'll expand my business to add some of this.

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I was thinking about this. Why wouldn't a hyrdo shop buy those 50lb quantities and mix their own generic "lineups?" Label them like Walmart's "Equate" brand: "Same Active Ingredients as Benydryl -- but 60% less!"

Maybe there's a business opportunity there? Make the product labels. Sell kits to make 1, 5, 10, etc. gallons (with enough labels). Sell the labels separately for those who want to buy the 50lb bags themselves. Sell the scales, the blank jugs (just coordinate drop shipping through a supplier as a convenience.).

az2000 said:

I was thinking about this. Why wouldn't a hyrdo shop buy those 50lb quantities and mix their own generic "lineups?" Label them like Walmart's "Equate" brand: "Same Active Ingredients as Benydryl -- but 60% less!"

Maybe there's a business opportunity there? Make the product labels. Sell kits to make 1, 5, 10, etc. gallons (with enough labels). Sell the labels separately for those who want to buy the 50lb bags themselves. Sell the scales, the blank jugs (just coordinate drop shipping through a supplier as a convenience.).

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I've come across a few shops that do something similar, but they don't recreate the bottled blends, they simply provide their own. I doubt they know how to reverse engineer them as I have. Also, as has been mentioned before: brand loyalty and brand trust is something a lot of people care about, so getting a lot of people to switch their nutrient blend is difficult. The point of this, really, was to share information and let everyone know that the big nutrient companies don't deserve the stronghold they seem to have.

I suppose I could help those out that don't have the means to buy the scales and just offer these for sale online for a more typical retail markup of like 30-40% instead of 500% or whatever. Just enough to keep one or two people employed and pay for the warehouse. That's actually not too difficult to setup.

MisterBlah said:

I doubt they know how to reverse engineer them as I have.
The point of this, really, was to share information and let everyone know that the big nutrient companies don't deserve the stronghold they seem to have.

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I was thinking if you branded it in some way, it could take on an "open source" nature. That would make the information more visible, understandable (not buried in a thread), accessible, purchasable.....

Hydro stores could do their own thing. It's open source. No problem. But, it originates from a known source. It's a copy. That would add integrity (authority) to a known standard (not buried in a thread).

I see the Uber of cannabis cultivation. This could really be disruptive.

Well, if I sold it, I would be 100% transparent with what is being purchased. No different than here. I love the open-source movement a lot. Freedom of information is definitely important to me.

MisterBlah said:

Well, if I sold it, I would be 100% transparent with what is being purchased. No different than here. I love the open-source movement a lot. Freedom of information is definitely important to me.

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Absolutely. That's what I'm thinking. It would be like the Area-51 of LEDs. He publishes the part numbers he uses. People can make his light. He doesn't care. People buy his stuff because he set a standard that way.

I see the brand setting a reference standard, mindshare, a "movement." It could

I think it could become as much of a "Theme" as any of the boutique, multi-bottle "lineups."

I got a hunch your worth a lot of money, that would be the only way its worth making your own nutrients baring in mind the hours spent, when you could be doing something else more productive with that super brain u seem to have, your own nutrient line up "even MORE advanced nutrients" would put your knowledge to use lol, do you have a degree in chemistry?
I'd love to know wtf is in canna boost if u get time or bloombastic and bare in mind decoding your analysis for comparison to other products is beyond me so maybe a few words for the simpleton

az2000 said:

Absolutely. That's what I'm thinking. It would be like the Area-51 of LEDs. He publishes the part numbers he uses. People can make his light. He doesn't care. People buy his stuff because he set a standard that way.

I see the brand setting a reference standard, mindshare, a "movement." It could

- Facilitate hydroshops to do it, educating where to buy the stuff, downloadable artwork for labels ("your business name here").
- Educate growers about this option, and they can do it themselves if their hydroshop doesn't provide "Open Salts" alternatives to brand-name nutrients. Or, if they don't trust their hydroshop's diligence in such matters. Sell quantities to make 1, 5, 25gal of a typical "Open Salts" version of a product.
- Foster a higher standard in hydroshops (if they'd like to be seen as diligent by their customers).
​

I think it could become as much of a "Theme" as any of the boutique, multi-bottle "lineups."

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I feel like you're putting more effort into this than I am now. I mean, sure it took me hours to reverse engineer all these, but a marketing brain is something I do not posses. Also, don't shoot me if I use "Open Salts". I really like that, not gunna lie.

MrMoores said:

I got a hunch your worth a lot of money, that would be the only way its worth making your own nutrients baring in mind the hours spent, when you could be doing something else more productive with that super brain u seem to have, your own nutrient line up "even MORE advanced nutrients" would put your knowledge to use lol, do you have a degree in chemistry?
I'd love to know wtf is in canna boost if u get time or bloombastic and bare in mind decoding your analysis for comparison to other products is beyond me so maybe a few words for the simpleton

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Here's the thing about "even MORE advanced nutrients", it's a bunch of bullshit really. No one has put forth the effort to truly experiment on nutrient blends in cannabis. A lot of people understand what a plant needs in general, and that is good enough to grow a plant. If anyone tells you that growing cannabis is hard, tell them to shove it up their ass. Growing plants is easy, relatively speaking.

I can get down to and tell you concentrations you want in your fertigation water and how to get them based on your source water quality, soil quality, and tissue quality. That's just a step further than what I've shown here with the concentrations of each individual fertilizer. But doing that takes a lot more time and effort than using a premixed blend that someone came up with. The point of premixed blends is the make growing easy, right? To do it the advanced way is to use real data on your water, soil, and plants. At best, that is "more advanced". But it's also beyond what a regular consumer would do with a little 6 plant grow in his walk in closet.

Also, not a chemist, a mechanical engineer actually. But I do have a habit for teaching myself things mechanical engineers shouldn't know anything about. Hell, it only took a week or two to teach myself how to reverse engineer these nutrients. In doing so, I learned more about the chemistry of fertilization and growing plants that I ever would have thought. And then I stumbled across HydroBuddy and got into that. Stumbled across more software, etc.

As az2000 said: My brain has too many tabs open. And god damnit is it hard to close them.

MrMoores said:

I'd love to know wtf is in canna boost if u get time or bloombastic

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There, see. Even you're digging it.

MrMoores said:

bare in mind decoding your analysis for comparison to other products is beyond me so maybe a few words for the simpleton

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MrMoores said:

I'd love to know wtf is in canna boost if u get time or bloombastic and bare in mind decoding your analysis for comparison to other products is beyond me so maybe a few words for the simpleton

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I'll find them and put them near the top of the list. I'm working on doing all of General Hydroponics right now. Once done, I'll get to those. And then I think I'll do the complete Botanicare line up.

Also, az2000, you are right that I do need to have all this information in one place. It's a pain in the ass to search through a forum post, especially since I can't go back and edit the main post.

az2000 said:

I was thinking about this. Why wouldn't a hyrdo shop buy those 50lb quantities and mix their own generic "lineups?" Label them like Walmart's "Equate" brand: "Same Active Ingredients as Benydryl -- but 60% less!"

Maybe there's a business opportunity there? Make the product labels. Sell kits to make 1, 5, 10, etc. gallons (with enough labels). Sell the labels separately for those who want to buy the 50lb bags themselves. Sell the scales, the blank jugs (just coordinate drop shipping through a supplier as a convenience.).

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The hydro distributor cartel requires hydro stores to sell a certain quota of water bottled nutes, or they can lose their contract with the distributor.

Add DG foilage pro to your list please

ttystikk said:

The hydro distributor cartel requires hydro stores to sell a certain quota of water bottled nutes, or they can lose their contract with the distributor.

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A lot of distributor contracts throughout the retail sales industry work like this.

where would you buy all these ingredients from..

Could we get away with just buying the precision scales and just mix up larger batches such as 100L?

Do you have any plan to do the Canna line at all?

Cheers.

Bella923 said:

where would you buy all these ingredients from..

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A local fertilizer resaler. If you can't find one, try to find a feed store. They might have it, or at least, they would know who does. If you are in the city, there probably isn't a local feed shop. You may have to drive out of the city to find one.

You may only be able to buy in 50lb bags from them though. They should be only $20-50 a piece though.

For example: If I were in Denver, I could go some place like Wardle Feed and Pet Supply, which, while not IN Denver, is in the suburbs. They happen to carry Ammonium Sulfate in 50lb bags. Awesome. But that's only one of the many fertilizers than I need and they don't carry that many fertilizers. So I go find another retailer. I might have to drive an hour to get there. But it's worth it.

Can you do a recreate for Ionic bloom, if you don't mind.

Kind of curious about simple every day Miracle-Gro Line ups? That would be interesting

How are you doing this?

Lotta work. Lotta work. Hope it's satisfying and fun. Gotta be some upside

MisterBlah said:

A lot of distributor contracts throughout the retail sales industry work like this.

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True. What I think is anti competitive behavior is when the distributors tell the store owner what OTHER distributors they may or may not use.

End result is nute prices that are twenty to fifty times higher than necessary.

klx said:

Could we get away with just buying the precision scales and just mix up larger batches such as 100L?

Do you have any plan to do the Canna line at all?

Cheers.

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Yes and Yes.

saiyaneye said:

Kind of curious about simple every day Miracle-Gro Line ups? That would be interesting

How are you doing this?

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There are a lot of Miracle-Gro mixes. And TBH, since those are soil mixes, I'd rather try to get a soil quality test done rather than relying on listed NPK ratios.

How am I doing thing? I'm using the principles of chemistry.

Bella923 said:

where would you buy all these ingredients from..

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Hydro-Gardens.com

They'll also sell the training wheels version; a premix with everything in it except calcium nitrate and epsom salt. I'm not hating at all; it's what I've been using for years and it works awesome. The premix I chose was called 'hi K hydroponic mix 5-11-26 with micros'

This is likely to be a better solution for the hobbyist as it combines the advantages of a premade mix with the low cost and convenience of dry nutes, no expensive precision scales needed. Gram scale will do fine.

Carolina Dream'n said:

Can you do a recreate for Ionic bloom, if you don't mind.

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This one is interesting and I just learned some people are bad at reporting what their guaranteed analysis is or just bad a mixing nutrient blends.

The database at http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=5881 shows that it is a 3-2-6. Okay, no problem. But what they don't list there are calcium and sulfates. Here's the ionic bloom label: http://hdi.web2.webascender.com/media/wysiwyg/Documents/ionic/IonicBloomQT.JPG

Notice how it two of the compounds it's derived from are calcium nitrate and potassium sulfate there. An insoluble calcium sulfate precipitate will form in the high concentrations these are made at, And that is a huge waste.

In addition, they mix ammonium nitrate with the concentrated acid phosphoric acid. Hell, phosphoric acid is their only source of phosphorus. This is bad. The reaction was likely violent and immediate. Never add a concentrated acid in with ammonium nitrate.