Red light best for budding?

curious2garden

Well-Known Mod
Staff member
Bruce Bugbee has never grown a high THC cannabis plant – Utah University only grows CBD strains. He also sells Apogee light meters, so never forget what his TRUE agenda is. To sell more light meters! He also contradicts himself a lot . . . but I digress.

There are some missing pieces of info in some of the above posts, namely that those high PPFD levels are being acheived with supplementary CO2. If you try growing at 1500-2000 PPFD in average atmospheric conditions (400PPM CO2) instead of 1000-1200PPM CO2 your plants are going to suffer.

A lot of people think that more CO2 facilitates more efficient photosynthsis – and it does – but the real benefit is that CO2 quenches chloroplasts (prevents them from overheating) so that they can absorb more photons. And that's why you can hit your plants with higher PPFD levels.

PPFD is not only CO2 dependent, it is strain dependent. Sativas can handle higher levels of light than indicas. They have skinnier leaves – less surface area – and a more open structure that allows light to penetrate instead of capturing most of the photons in the upper canopy, where it is concentrated. Large-scale defoliation makes things worse, because it increases light concentrations in any given area as there are fewer fan leaves to absorb the photons and protect the stems – which turn red from stress pigments (anthocyanins) produced in response to the added light stress.

Researchers only think too much red light causes bleaching – they haven't proven it yet – but if it does, it could be as simple as the RGB ratio oversaturating the pgiments in chloroplasts with too much red light. In other words, chloroplasts are made of pigments that absorb different colors, but once those pigments start to saturate, excess photons are converted to heat instead of being photosynthesised and so leaf temperatures start to increase.

Most grow lights have 20% or less blue, but many have 50-60% or more red light, so it is feasible that this heavy red weighting is providing more red photons than can be photosynthesised compared to blue. If the light had a higher blue weighting, then we can assume that excess blue photons are going to bleach a plant faster than excess red photons, becaue blue photons carry about 50% more energy than red photons – which means each blue photon has 50% more latency.

The difference in "quality" between high red and high blue or UV lights on cannabis can be attributed to several schools of thought:

Cell contraction (UV, blue) negatively affects yield. If a plant produces the same amount of THC but less yield, the THC percentage gos up.

Cell expansion (far red, or rather increased far red:red ratio) positively affects yield, which has the potential to decrease THC levels if the plant does not produce more cannabinoids along with the extra yield.

But what if we combined the two? High levels of red – and especially far red – with moderate levels of blue and UVA? Do we see an increase in both yield and potency? Would a comparison between natural sunlight – which contains UV and high levels of far red – and indoor LED light – which usualy lacks these spectra – be a good comparison?

The fact is, outdoor cannabis – if grown in optimal conditions – will be more potent than indoor cannabis: https://ecs-botanics.com/weed-grow-outdoor-vs-indoor/#:~:text=They've executed this experiment,, higher in THCv, etc.

Why? UV. And it doesn't have to be UVB, either – sunlight only has a very small percentage of UVB, as most of the UV is at the UVA end of the spectrum.

We've done our own tests that show the addition of UVA compared to no UVA increases THC levels without impacting yield. However, the addition of extra blue photons does affect yield, as we have seen when comparing a ~3000K light to a ~3500K light.

But is it because of the cell contraction properties of blue light that yields suffer or is it something few people have thought to discuss? Namely, if you keep a plant compact, light can't penetrate to areas that are shaded compared to plants with more open structures that are going to grow bigger because they get more light to more areas of the plant?

Could it be as simple as that?
Always good seeing you around.
 

curious2garden

Well-Known Mod
Staff member
You too :bigjoint:

Ah, been busy with things lately, but I do enjoy reading a bit of scientific research knowing that our knowledge is constantly evolving. I'm not saying everything I write is 100% correct, but I try to be as correct as I can be with my current level of understanding.
You always make me think and learn something. I love that. I finally changed my grow room over to LED! This is my new flower light's spectrum. It's an HLG Scorpion Diablo X. My plants are loving it compared to my old HPS. It's sure been a learning curve LOL. But the plants have really responded.
 

go go kid

Well-Known Member
NASA'S invested lots of money on lighting for growing crops in space, there on the ball with lighting, not saying any info you have recieved is wrong, quite the oppasite.
just thaught you may be interested in some reading matter
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
You always make me think and learn something. I love that. I finally changed my grow room over to LED! This is my new flower light's spectrum. It's an HLG Scorpion Diablo X. My plants are loving it compared to my old HPS. It's sure been a learning curve LOL. But the plants have really responded.
HLG have made a very efficient board. Indeed, they are among the leaders in grow light efficiency and they have a very good relationship with Samsung. I have a few different ideas about what makes the best plant-light spectrum, and that shows in the finished product. It's not easy – in fact it's impossible – to get the same efficiency when you add Far Red and UV diodes due to the difference in die (the actual LED part) efficiencies and quantum yield, but we still have the most efficient "true" PAR (400-700nm) spectrum grow light on the market, and it gets better if you extend that to PAR+ (400-750nm). You really do notice the difference in growth when you add Far Red light.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
NASA'S invested lots of money on lighting for growing crops in space, there on the ball with lighting, not saying any info you have recieved is wrong, quite the oppasite.
just thaught you may be interested in some reading matter
I did a bit of research into NASA's earlier experiments and it was from this (NASA's) work that we began to understand optimum blue levels for fruiting and flowerig plants was around 10-15%. This was before similar experiments quoted above.

The thing about the NASA experiments is they were looking for the best quantum yield spectrum – which is to say, the most growth for the least amount of energy consumption. As we know, blue photons need more energy to produce than green photons, which need more energy than red photons, which need more energy than far red photons etc.

But there are two issues that need to be considered:

The first is LED architecture. Blue dies (InGaN) that are the basis for white phosphor LEDs are very good in terms of total efficiency (typically 60-70%), but have a lower quantum yield. Which is to say, they convert 60-70% of electricy to light, but produce fewer photons, because more energy is need to produce each blue photon. There are further losses when converting that blue light to white light through the use of phosphors that absorb and re-emit different wavelengths (mainly green and red). Monochromatic LEDs (660nm reds for example) are also very efficient and also have a high quantum yield, but their wavelengths are narrow.

The second issue is that different plant species respond to different spectra and light levels in various ways, so it is difficult to find a "one size fits all" spectrum. Added to this, all plants need at least some blue light to grow – and are generally healthier with the addition of green light – so you can't just use red monochromatic LEDs that are up to 4.6 umol/j or more (compared to up to 3.2 umol/j for white phosphors and around 2.8 umol/j for blue LEDs), so you need to compromise somewhere.

I guess the last point is that LEDs have come a long way in the past five years and are constantlyevolving – along with our knowlegde of plant spectra – so we are constantly having to revise our thinking. But I think the basics are there.
 

cdgmoney250

Well-Known Member
Sorry for turbo-posting, but I just found what I was looking for.

Fluence's R4 spectrum
View attachment 5322555

Fluence's R6 spectrum
View attachment 5322556

My spectrum (Grow Lights Australia), which is in-between but also has much more far red as well as UVA
View attachment 5322557
I have reservations about spectrums with these massive red spikes relative to the other colors. I’m currently using the R4 spectrum from Fluence and was able to run long and short flowering plants at 1500-1700 ppfd (Edit: without CO2 supplement) without stress or issue and the yield and quality are some of the best I’ve had (living soil/water only). I feel if the spectrum is imbalanced and weighted too much towards the red end, plants tend to exhibit photooxidation and photoinhibition at lower ppfds than a more balanced spectrum (relative intensity of the different spectra) still including the same nanometers. While I agree that the addition of far red and UVA is no doubt beneficial overall, if there is too much of either relative to the rest of the spectrum, potential photosynthetic efficacy is diminished. With the red heavy spectrums, photosystems I & II get overworked by the quantity of red photons, and therefore can’t do the repair work they are supposed to as efficiently under higher flux conditions. This is probably why you are seeing oxidative stress above 1200 ppfd. Just my personal perspective based on lots of reading and trials under different spectrums. Not shilling for Fluence, but I picked up the Spydr series mainly because of the spectrum, secondly because of the output, and certainly not because of the price. Compared to modern sun-like LED chips, their spectrum isn’t even that broad, but it is fairly balanced compared to most commercial fixtures. My 2 cents bongsmilie
 
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cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
thanks for your thoughs Prawn and especially for posting the spectra.

Bruce Bugbee has never grown a high THC cannabis plant – Utah University only grows CBD strains. He also sells Apogee light meters, so never forget what his TRUE agenda is. To sell more light meters! He also contradicts himself a lot . . . but I digress.

There are some missing pieces of info in some of the above posts, namely that those high PPFD levels are being acheived with supplementary CO2. If you try growing at 1500-2000 PPFD in average atmospheric conditions (400PPM CO2) instead of 1000-1200PPM CO2 your plants are going to suffer.
not sure here, Bugbee grows high THC plants since longer, there of videos about it showing the facility.
While youre right that the older studies are prob made with low THC plants.
TOCC is refering to "Type 1 (high-THC, low-CBD) ".
The CO2 concetration is always enriched in these studies Chnadra, TOCC and they name it as it should be done.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
to be honest, most of that info is very interesting, but for a small grower, i'm not so much interested in less yield but better quality.
I understand that completely and I'm of a similar mindset.
I don't recall - were THC or CBD levels discussed in the paper?

and i've read/learned/seen that high blue values lead to better quality. everything from a MH vs HPS grow light from start to finish, but 315LEC with alot of blues, from 10000K finishing bulbs, to growers switching their leds to all blue for the last 2 weeks (heliospectra).
Could you be so good as to list some sources?

and i guess my main question is how does a small grower analyse my light to see if my light is close to 4% blue?
If you're using a white LED, you could contact the manufacturer but, frankly, it's a moot point because you can't change the spectrum of the light. The key point is re. adding blue in flower.

don't think i'm trying to prove i'm right, more so just questioning my long held beliefs that blue is very important for veg and bloom
Why not try to prove that you're correct?
Please do prove that you're correct. That would be great. I want to improve my crop which is why I dig into things. But if I can get you to dig up the research and show me how to improve, that makes my life easier, right? ;-)
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
I want to improve my crop which is why I dig into things
Effects of Blue Light on Cannabis
Blue light has many similar effects as the UVA light. Blue photons however carry less energy compared UV, therefore the responses of blue can be milder than those of UV.

However, blue light has been shown to increase cannabinoid concentrations, especially THC, as demonstrated in the article by Magagnini et al. 2018. This was the first article to compare the differences between LEDs and HPS on cannabis growth and flower quality.

In general, blue light enhances compactness and makes plants bushier. This is good because very tall, stretched plants cannot support large flower formations. HPS typically grows those tall, slim plants due to complete absence of blue wavelengths in its spectrum.

Due to their bluish spectrum and the compactness this creates, traditional MH (metal halide) lamps have been popular for the vegetative phase. Chlorophylls absorb blue light efficiently and the plant can use the energy coming from blue photons in photosynthesis, making blue light very beneficial for the total yield output.

A typical, pink LED light is a combination of a high amount of red and a scarce amount of blue. Similarly to UV, blue LED chips are more costly. But blue light is crucial for good development of the cannabis plant.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Effects of Blue Light on Cannabis
Blue light has many similar effects as the UVA light. Blue photons however carry less energy compared UV, therefore the responses of blue can be milder than those of UV.

However, blue light has been shown to increase cannabinoid concentrations, especially THC, as demonstrated in the article by Magagnini et al. 2018. This was the first article to compare the differences between LEDs and HPS on cannabis growth and flower quality.

In general, blue light enhances compactness and makes plants bushier. This is good because very tall, stretched plants cannot support large flower formations. HPS typically grows those tall, slim plants due to complete absence of blue wavelengths in its spectrum.

Due to their bluish spectrum and the compactness this creates, traditional MH (metal halide) lamps have been popular for the vegetative phase. Chlorophylls absorb blue light efficiently and the plant can use the energy coming from blue photons in photosynthesis, making blue light very beneficial for the total yield output.

A typical, pink LED light is a combination of a high amount of red and a scarce amount of blue. Similarly to UV, blue LED chips are more costly. But blue light is crucial for good development of the cannabis plant.
Appreciate the cite.

I've had that paper for a while and, just now, skimmed through it again, quickly. Nothing earth shattering jumped out at me but I'll read it again tonight.

These are the only two sections of the paper that I highlighted (I downloaded the PDF).

"The authors used colored $lters to alter the light spectrum and concluded that the THC content of leaves from plants grown under shaded daylight and $ltered red and blue light did not di#er signi$cantly from the THC content in daylight controls, while leaves from plants grown under $ltered green light and darkness contained signi$cantly lower levels of THC than those from plants grown in sunlight."

and

"Increased concentrations of THC, but not of other cannabinoids, were found with UV-B treatment in both leaf and "oral tissues of drug-type plants "
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Nothing earth shattering jumped out at me but I'll read it again tonight
Magagnini et al. [6] reported an increase in CBD and THC concentration under 14 and 24% blue (from LEDs) compared to 8% blue under a mogul-base HPS fixture. Additionally, they saw an increase in CBG concentration, a precursor to both CBD and THC, with an increasing fraction of blue photons. They hypothesized that the first enzyme in the cannabinoid pathway is responsive to blue photons. Photoreceptors are likely under-saturated at lower light intensities allowing for an increased sensitivity to spectral quality. This could explain why an effect on cannabinoid concentration was observed at the lower PPFD of Magagnini et al. [6] and not at the higher PPFD in this study

If i read this correctly, cannabinoids in the bugbee study had too high ppfd to make a difference

so bugbee prefers quantity over quality which is fine for commercial growers. rkymtnman prefers quality and yield is unimportant
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
"The authors used colored $lters to alter the light spectrum
maybe i'm wrong but isn't this the same thing as having a flashlight with a white bulb that you put a green filter over? which is not the same as the same flashlight haveing a an actual green LED??
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
maybe i'm wrong but isn't this the same thing as having a flashlight with a white bulb that you put a green filter over? which is not the same as the same flashlight haveing a an actual green LED??
That's why I highlighted it. It sounded a little hinky but that's the opinion of a history major vs a pointy headed guy.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Magagnini et al. [6] reported an increase in CBD and THC concentration under 14 and 24% blue (from LEDs) compared to 8% blue under a mogul-base HPS fixture. Additionally, they saw an increase in CBG concentration, a precursor to both CBD and THC, with an increasing fraction of blue photons. They hypothesized that the first enzyme in the cannabinoid pathway is responsive to blue photons. Photoreceptors are likely under-saturated at lower light intensities allowing for an increased sensitivity to spectral quality. This could explain why an effect on cannabinoid concentration was observed at the lower PPFD of Magagnini et al. [6] and not at the higher PPFD in this study

If i read this correctly, cannabinoids in the bugbee study had too high ppfd to make a difference
Thank you for digging through that paper. Tip 'o the hat to you.

I didn't make the time to read it but, if all I have to do to increase quality is turn down the lights, I'm all for it.

so bugbee prefers quantity over quality which is fine for commercial growers.
I've never seen anything that indicates that he has a preference. I suspect that he responds to his client(s) (because that's what pays the bills) as well as his own curiosity (even though the payoff might not be immediate). The only insight I have about the good Doctor is from conversations with Apogee tech support and, pretty much, they describe him as what we see of him in his vids - an affable, somewhat nerdy, professor/researcher.

rkymtnman prefers quality and yield is unimportant
Hear hear.

Thanks for the info.
 

grotbags

Well-Known Member
maybe i'm wrong but isn't this the same thing as having a flashlight with a white bulb that you put a green filter over? which is not the same as the same flashlight haveing a an actual green LED??
its the same. if you had a white light source with a red filter, the filter blocks all the other wavelengths of light apart from the red.
if you had a red filter tunned to 660nm the filtered white light would be no different to red 660nm wavelengths produced by a mono led. obviously massively less efficient though.
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
its the same. if you had a white light source with a red filter, the filter blocks all the other wavelengths of light apart from the red.
if you had a red filter tunned to 660nm the filtered white light would be no different to red 660nm wavelengths produced by a mono led. obviously massively less efficient though.
this was a long time ago but i could swear that using a green filtered light in your grow room ( to see during dark periods, etc) was not the same as an actual green led.
oh well, no big deal.
 
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