Question My Beliefs, But Be Prepared To Answer For Yours :)

olylifter420 said:

i gave my insight on another thread, but it got deleted... that sucks...

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olylifter420 said:

I think i will sit this one out... I find there will never be a conversation that you like cause someone will not play fair and thats a fact.

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olylifter420 said:

I believe God placed everything here for us mankind to discover by ourselves. Everything just falls into place for me. Im happy the way i live my life and i cant complain. I do not force anything on no one and i hear out someone that has something to say about what they believe in(in person, its quite difficult sometimes on here), i respect what you believe in and it does not bother me if my beliefs are stupid or dumb to some...

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Padawanbater2 said:

Influenced by other threads, this one is to show the stark contrast between believers and non-believers. The differences in our approaches towards answering this question. How are those differences important?

What does it mean to question the beliefs you hold most true?

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How do you do it? Are there guidelines to follow? Is there a right or wrong way?

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Why do you believe the things you do?

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How do you know they're true?

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If they weren't true, how would it change your life?

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Would you be willing to change what you believe to be true for what actually is true, even if it meant it would shatter that which you held to be most true your whole life?

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What's more important to you, the truth, or your comfort and peace of mind?

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There is no hidden agenda, no alterior motive.. None of that. This is just a thread from a guy who, dispite having a difficult time understanding, is interested in these things. Can't we have one of these conversations, just one time, where nobody argues or insults someone else? Can this thread prove it? I'd like to say it can be done, but my experience says otherwise, and I'm not saying I'm innocent of this either, but come on people, keep your composure, stay calm, relax, think. This stuff is not personal, don't make it personal. None of us know each other, what do you have to get upset about?

So this is how we do this, I'm going to be score keeper, everytime someone bitches, moans, whines, cries or complains about something unjustly, the topic of the thread at the time will be paused, it'll be pointed out, and we will take a vote, if 5 people agree the bitching/moaning/whining/crying/complaining is unwarranted, the other side will get a point. There are two sides, believers, nonbelievers. This doesn't make us advasaries, it makes us partners, working together, to answer the same questions.

I think this will be an interesting little addition to the normal stuff, so lets make it happen, do it the right way, follow the instructions, and if you have any more questions you are genuinely curious about, ASK THEM!

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Padawanbater2 said:

I agree, I don't think threads should be deleted.


That's why I turned it into kind of a game. If you act stupid or say something stupid, you will be held accountable for it and the points will reflect which side represents rational thinking. (not you specifically)



But, would it bother you if your beliefs harmed other people?

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olylifter420 said:

how would you feel if your beliefs harmed others? I dont think my beliefs harm no one because my beliefs are held within myself.. I do not preach them to others, i do not commit crimes or violent acts against others and i am not gullible.

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olylifter420 said:

How do you know that you questioning others beliefs and telling them they are wrong makes someone think twice about life? What if they let it get to them and make them believe that all this time their lives were lies?

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olylifter420 said:

Im not bothered by your questioning, it makes my beliefs more concrete. I know they will always be tested, but it matters what you do when they are.

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olylifter420 said:

People take things out of context and there will always be abusers of the system. Within any system, it is bound to happen that someone will abuse the system. the people you are referring to are extremists' who abuse the weak minds of sheep that have nothing to follow or no one to lead them. Enlightened by the lies of these individuals, these so called sheep will be willing to do anything in the name of whoever they supposedly follow.

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olylifter420 said:

What i am referring to is the many great people who contribute and have contributed to science or any other area of study in which their beliefs aided them in conquering difficult tasks and helping others. Just as there are bad people who abuse the "system", there are just as many or more people who are willing to help anyone out or contribute to something greater then themselves.

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mindphuk said:

Play on!

Okay, here I go. I don't want to shatter Pad's beliefs but it is "ulterior" not "alterior"

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RawBudzski said:

I thought we were not supposed to Question God. <3

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Padawanbater2 said:

attah boy, thanks for the correction! And thanks for your reply, you and I seem to be on pretty equal ground, I answer the questions just about the same way you did. You, me and Heis (among others) would be the ultimate philosophical smoke session!

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Padawanbater2 said:

Alright, but for the sake of this hypothertical question, what if you were sure they harmed other people, if somehow you were positive that your belief in God hurt another person, how would that make you feel? Would you still believe?


I don't tell people they're wrong, I tell people they're using inconsistent logic to analyze results, are biased towards the informa
tion that's been presented, or are simply unaware of the pitfalls of the human brain. And I don't know for sure it will make anyone think twice about life. Also, I don't just say it, I point out where and how I think they're being inconsistent so they can explain it or correct it.

The feeling of liberation when you understand you're an atheist is justification for all the lies you've been told your whole life.



Answer the questions in the OP oly, I'd like to see them.



I don't think this argument has a solid foundation to stand on. Couldn't you say the same thing with just about anything?

-"_____ is naturally good, it's just been perverted over the centuries.."
-flaws are pointed out in Biblical moral code, ex. slavery, women submissive to men, child abuse, homosexual hate, etc., in an attempt to show the one making the claim that the morals presented in the Bible are not always so moral and in fact, present some very immoral behavior
-evidence most often than not goes unanswered or, the OT is envoked as justification.. "that was before Jesus, now it doesn't apply", yet hating homosexuals still exists in droves within mainstream Christianity, and religious people seem to cherry pick the morals they agree with within the Bible and discard anything that might question it.
-now, it's written in the OT, inside the Bible, that every Christian follows, there it is, right in black and white for anyone to read. So the question of "is it the religions fault, or is it the crazy individuals fault?" doesn't seem to make any difference because clearly it would seem that no matter the answer, the persons religion played a major part and influenced the outcome of that persons decision regardless. Without it, would he still have made the same decision? Of course not. So how can anyone make the claim that you just did?

This is where you would present evidence to support your idea that people are crazy, not religion. Show me what I'm missing, show me what you see that I don't. Why do you believe this?



If a serial killer helps you cut your grass and wash your car every weekend, do you think he should still go to prison for killing people?

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RawBudzski said:

Always.!. My Mind Is Ready To Expand. so where do we begin.. . Oly chime in here so I have some material.

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olylifter420 said:

you see, it is that that will always "allow you " to win this discussion. power in numbers..

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olylifter420 said:

I did already answer them in my own way, i dont know how to multi quote, sorry...

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olylifter420 said:

Like minded people will always back each other up.

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olylifter420 said:

I have nothing against no one and a serial killer deserves to be dead if you ask me.

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olylifter420 said:

and lets just say also, that your questioning did in fact cause someone to commit suicide?

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olylifter420 said:

how would that make you feel?

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olylifter420 said:

peoples beliefs will always play a major role in any decision people make.

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olylifter420 said:

I do not have any evidence for what you are seeking... The things you seek can never be explained or shown... it is a never ending discussion with differing opinions and differing beliefs that is usually one sided.

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Padawanbater2 said:

Let's try this, I'll ask a question, you give an answer, I then decide if the answer is enough to quell my interest. Then you ask a question, I give an answer and you decide. Agree? I really don't care what you ask me, nothing is off limits.



It's not a win/lose situation, like I mentioned in the OP. The point system is designed to keep people on topic and weed out the pointless insults that always seem to come about in these kinds of discussions. The thread is short, but so far I haven't seen one.



I realize you replied, but you didn't answer the questions. Take a stab at it, no judgments here.

To multi-quote, copy the username (or simply put [ quote ] without the username) and paste it before their text, then at the end of their text put [ /quote ] and it'll box it up all neat-like for you. (no spaces between brackets [])


See, you are learning how the human mind can trick itself.. (confirmation bias)



So then, it really doesn't matter how much good a terrible person does, right?

Why should it matter how much good a terrible institution does?



If my questions caused someone to commit suicide, I would feel like that person was going to commit suicide whether they read anything I had to say or not.

I've touched on this point before. Nothing someone says should ever envoke those kinds of thoughts/feelings. Words are just words.

I know it's scary for some people to ask these questions. But oly, you've seen me post here for a while now, does it look like I'm scared of asking these questions to you? Have you ever thought about why it might be so terrifying to some but to others, it's just words? I've taken the time to really think about this stuff, I just don't think that if there was a god, and it gave me the ability to think these questions through logically and rationally that led to the only answers my mind is cabable of believing, it would fault me for it.



On a personal level, sad someone could be so weak simple questions could make them end it all, sad a society could manipulate a person into submission to the point of ending it all, sad someone could be taken advantage of and used as a pawn in their racket. Just sad.



100% correct. Which is why what someone believes is so important for the rest of us. If something someone believes makes them act a certain way that impacts the rest of society in a negative way, I think it's the responsibility of those living in that society to correct it. I think the problem arises when those that believe feel their beliefs do not impact society in a negative way. Our own back and fourth has also given me that impression. You think Christianity is harmless and does more good than the harm the 'bad apples' cause within it, I think Christianity is dangerous and is used to subconsciously manipulate populations into acting/being a certain way, as to maintain control and the illusion of order.

That is the problem that we should be talking about. The reasons you feel it does more good than bad and the reasons I feel it does more bad than good. There's gotta be some middle ground, wouldn't you agree?



I disagree. Remember how we mentioned in the other thread that nothing can ever reach 100% certainty and only degrees of probability exist? The answers to these questions can be found if they deal with the natural world.

Again, opinions don't matter in this discussion. What we are talking about are beliefs, right? Doesn't it seem kind of silly to base a belief off of an unsubstantiated opinion? I'm not really even sure how one would do that. You can't trick yourself into belief, you simply believe after the evidence is provided or you don't. We are talking about facts, evidence, science, proof. Objective truth, that which we can all observe to be true regardless of anyones opinion, is the same to me as it is to you as it is to the next guy. Rocks are hard, the sky is blue, the Earth rotates on a 24 hour cycle, these are all things that are objectively true, so what you or I or what anyone else has to say about it is irrelevant to what is actually true. Similarly, we can observe the claims made in the believer/nonbeliever debate and test them accordingly against objective truth. If it's true, as believers say it is, it should pass the test. Time and time again, the claims made fail the test.

What is the honest individual to do?

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Heisenberg said:

What does it mean to question the beliefs you hold most true?
All beliefs should be questioned. The beliefs you hold most true should be the most questioned, since apparently they have been around the longest. Questioning your beliefs simply means attempting to validate them. It means justifying your confidence via testing. The beliefs you hold are a reflection of your thinking and understanding of your place in the world. It is an indication of how you interpret and handle life. I do not want my beliefs to show cowardice, prejudice, sloppiness, inconsistency or irresponsibility, if for no other reason than that those traits often lead to false conclusions.


How do you do it? Are there guidelines to follow? Is there a right or wrong way?
You apply systematic and consistent doubt without allowing yourself personal prejudice. This requires making yourself aware of common reasoning mistakes and being intimately familiar with the subject. If you are to examine computer code and search for mistakes, you have to be aware the programming structure that makes the code valid (that which makes the logic of the code function). You can not do this without first understanding the code. Most people do not understand their own programming, or the inherit mistakes that programming is prone to. Even if you completely understand the code, many programmers can still overlook mistakes. That is why it's important to have your peers review your conclusions, no matter how confident you are. In computers we have an easy time because we can simply have a different piece of software check our code for mistakes. In real life we do not have this luxury, and must depend on others.

Why do you believe the things you do?
Because I have thought about them carefully and thoroughly, while always looking for errors, and then I have submitted them for peer review so that others can search for errors. When I believe something it is the same as saying "I have been unable to find fault with this conclusion".

How do you know they're true?
I can be reasonably confident they are true because I have agreed on a system of standards that are designed to carefully, thoroughly, and consistently apply doubt to evidence, reasoning, and logic, and these beliefs have survived that doubt. This process is labeled skepticism. Skeptical answers are always predicated on the idea that new evidence or information requires the entire doubt process to begin again. However it is important to distinguish between reasonable doubt and general distrust.

If they weren't true, how would it change your life?
It would help me identify a mistake in my thinking which would improve on other areas of belief. Often times that mistake is simply being uninformed or misinformed. One of the earliest things I learned was, check your facts.

Would you be willing to change what you believe to be true for what actually is true, even if it meant it would shatter that which you held to be most true your whole life?
As a matter of course.

What's more important to you, the truth, or your comfort and peace of mind? In my world, truth trumps all. I wish to understand reality as clearly as possible, and I rarely find personal comfort in reality. My satisfaction comes from understanding.

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