Question About Seeds

Hey all, I'm having a conversation with this guy this is what he's saying.

The only way you can truly call a strain a name if its "clone-only" all of these strains that you know and love Blue dream, chemdawg, og kush, etc. were all at one time clone-only strains.

Now the boom in the seed market comes and who have people either Re-crossed it or selfed a clone-only strain to make seeds. Now everyone has there own idea what this or that is, When you plant a seed each female is going to be different , maybe lean one way or the other or just be a freak. This is how a new strain is born, names don't mean much unless it a clone think of them a seed as a new unique child.- jah Love

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I'm pretty sure this guy is a blowhard. What do you guys think about what he said? Is he right in anyway?

Read about phenotypes, disregard that, and diff. pheno does not = diff. strain. Phenotypes are more like subcategories of one strain.

UncleReemis said:

Read about phenotypes, disregard that, and diff. pheno does not = diff. strain. Phenotypes are more like subcategories of one strain.

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Quick question, so there are two strains (indica and sativa)? The rest are phenos?

Ok, so I read into phenotypes, genotypes, and strain. I understood them and I found the 'Strain' description interesting.

Strain (biology)

Plants

The term has no official ranking status in botany; the term refers to the collective descendants produced from a common ancestor that share a uniform morphological or physiological character.[1] A strain is a designated group of offspring that are descended from a modified plant produced by conventional breeding by biotechnological means or result from genetic mutation.

As an example, some rice strains are made by inserting new genetic material into a rice plant,[2] all the descendants of the genetically modified rice plant are a strain with a unique genetic code that is passed on to later generations; the strain designation, which is normally a number or a formal name, covers all the plants that descend from the originally modified plant. The rice plants in the strain can be bred to other rice strains or cultivars, and if desirable plants are produced, these are further bred to stabilize the desirable traits; the stabilized plants that can be propagated and "come true" (remain identical to the parent plant) are given a cultivar name and released into production to be used by farmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_(biology)

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So, if I'm understanding what I read (above) cannabis (stabilized) phenotypes can also be considered different strains?

If you select an appealing phenotype from a collective of descendants produced from a common ancestor that share a uniform structure and function, and then continue to breed that phenotype with other phenotypes that show the same traits that appealed to you to begin with, you will end up with a stabilized phenotype of the same strain that you began with showing those traits dominantly. It would be a couple generations down the line by that point, but it would still be considered the same strain I believe as long as you never involve pollination from a plant of different strain in the process.

p3ps1c0la said:

Hey all, I'm having a conversation with this guy this is what he's saying.



I'm pretty sure this guy is a blowhard. What do you guys think about what he said? Is he right in anyway?

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where to even begin with this mess.. first of all, very, very, very false on all strains starting life out as a clone.. complete and utter horse hockey.. sure, there are tons of strains that are clone only, but that doesn't mean all strains come from clone onlys, that's simply sillyness..
when a breeder makes a new strain, they usually start with two plants, a mom and a dad.. those parents could just have easily come from seed stock vs clone stock.. just depends on what strain it is..
and as far as phenotypes and saying every single seed out a pack of beans is always going to be different, so much so that they're like a completely different strain, again, complete horse hockey.. look at a strain like ak47.. ak has been around for years and years, and is super stable.. if you were to crack a ten pack of ak, you'd be pretty sure to get ten very identical looking plants with very lil variation between the ten..
this variation is called phenotypes, like has been mentioned, and than there's also genotypes, which is more about how the plant all adapt to different grow environments.. meaning i could grow a plant in soil, in organic nutes in my house were the temps never go below 80 degrees the entire grow.. now, if i cut off a branch and gave it to you, and you grew it hydro, chem nutes, and the temps would never have gotten above 60 the whole time.. we'd more than likely have some pretty different looking plants at the end.. that's the genotype, how the plant responds to it's environment..
usually a strain that is considered ibl, or inbred, will also tend to give very similar looking plants.. think herijuana be sannies for an inbred line.. also northern lights, while not an ibl, are super stable, and you'll more than likely get very similar plants..

pheno's usually come into play when breeders use poly hybrids for the parents.. a poly hybrid is for ex, ace of spades x agent orange x sweet tooth, that'd be the mom side, and the dad side would be say, jack the ripper x super skunk x grape ape.. the more genetics that are in the gene pool to start, the more variation you will most likely end up with at the end of the day from seeds made from them.. the purer the parents line is that you start with, say deep chunk x c99, the more stable and predictable the offspring will be, with less phenotype variation..

racerboy71 said:

pheno's usually come into play when breeders use poly hybrids for the parents.. a poly hybrid is for ex, ace of spades x agent orange x sweet tooth, that'd be the mom side, and the dad side would be say, jack the ripper x super skunk x grape ape.. the more genetics that are in the gene pool to start, the more variation you will most likely end up with at the end of the day from seeds made from them.. the purer the parents line is that you start with, say deep chunk x c99, the more stable and predictable the offspring will be, with less phenotype variation..

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This is why I want to start with land race strains when I delve into the world of breeding.

p3ps1c0la said:

Quick question, so there are two strains (indica and sativa)? The rest are phenos?

Ok, so I read into phenotypes, genotypes, and strain. I understood them and I found the 'Strain' description interesting.



So, if I'm understanding what I read (above) cannabis (stabilized) phenotypes can also be considered different strains?

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indica and sativa are not strains, their a separate category, or class in biology, of cannabis.. indicas all tend to be much shorter, squat, bushy plants, that give the smoker more of a couch lock stone..
sativas are the opposite pretty much.. much taller, thinner leaves, and give more of a soaring, motivational high as opposed to a stone from indicas. also forgot to mention that indicas tend to have way fatter fingers on their leaves..

UncleReemis said:

This is why I want to start with land race strains when I delve into the world of breeding.

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yeah, there's very few strains i'd personally use if i were to get into a true breeding project. a few land races like you said, and a few strains like skunk number 1, any of the northern lights, deep chunk, and c99 are all pretty well known for being true breeding plants and it's well known what each of them will pass on to their offspring without much guess work..

racerboy71 said:

indica and sativa are not strains, their a separate category, or class in biology, of cannabis.. indicas all tend to be much shorter, squat, bushy plants, that give the smoker more of a couch lock stone..
sativas are the opposite pretty much.. much taller, thinner leaves, and give more of a soaring, motivational high as opposed to a stone from indicas. also forgot to mention that indicas tend to have way fatter fingers on their leaves..

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Soooo, there's only one strain than (all cannabis) and indica/sativa are genotypes then cross breeding would be phenotypes?

but yes, some clone only strains are simply a very rare phenotype from an otherwise common plant.
two i can think of off of the top of my head are cinderella 99, and exodus cheese.
the c99 is rumored to have come from an odd phenotype of sensi seeds jack herer, and the exo cheese is rumored to come from a pack of sensi's skunk number 1 i do believe.. both were unique enough from their siblings that they're considered their own strain now, but this isn't the most common of ways to "create" new strains.

p3ps1c0la said:

Soooo, there's only one strain than (all cannabis) and indica/sativa are genotypes then cross breeding would be phenotypes?

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no, there are probably thousands and thousands of different strains of cannabis..
and again, indica and sativa are not considered strains, they're just two different classes, like in biology, you have classes? they're just different enough from each other that they both have their own classes and plants of that class all exhibit similar characteristics like i was describing earlier.. there's a 3rd as well, ruderalis, which is pretty much ditch weed, with little to no thc, and doens't depend on a change in the light schedule to flower, it's considered an auto flowering variety and flowers by age, not the shortening of light hours like most cannabis..
and genos are all the same strain, same pheno type, just grown in different environments, and how they respond to that environment.. think about if you had a twin brother, and you were raised by your mom in the us of a, and your twin, was raised by your dad in africa.. while you are both twins, you were raised in very different environments, and would thus be very different people as adults.. that is genotypes..
pheno is you and your sister or brother.. you both came from the same parents, but you might have blond hair and blue eyes, while your brother might be short and have brown hairs and brown eyes.. this is phenotype.. phenotype is just the way the chromosomes line up and express themselves in the offsrpring..

Cannabis
Indica/Sativa/Ruderalis(autoflower)
Strain
Phenotype

In that order, is the basics. It's a hierarchy.

racerboy71 said:

no, there are probably thousands and thousands of different strains of cannabis..
and again, indica and sativa are not considered strains, they're just two different classes, like in biology, you have classes? they're just different enough from each other that they both have their own classes and plants of that class all exhibit similar characteristics like i was describing earlier.. there's a 3rd as well, ruderalis, which is pretty much ditch weed, with little to no thc, and doens't depend on a change in the light schedule to flower, it's considered an auto flowering variety and flowers by age, not the shortening of light hours like most cannabis..
and genos are all the same strain, same pheno type, just grown in different environments, and how they respond to that environment.. think about if you had a twin brother, and you were raised by your mom in the us of a, and your twin, was raised by your dad in africa.. while you are both twins, you were raised in very different environments, and would thus be very different people as adults.. that is genotypes..
pheno is you and your sister or brother.. you both came from the same parents, but you might have blond hair and blue eyes, while your brother might be short and have brown hairs and brown eyes.. this is phenotype.. phenotype is just the way the chromosomes line up and express themselves in the offsrpring..

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Thanks for the explanation, racerboy71. I definitely know more after this thread than before. Thanks everyone that posted, also. Appreciate it.