Ph Shift - Acid/Alkali vs Alkalinity

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
How do you buffer a res's ph shift, my tap water shifts .5 each day back upto over 7. Trying to avoid a RO machine if i can and dont want to be adding ph down everyday.-

CACO3 27mg/l
CA - 11mg/l
Degrees Clarke 1.89
Degrees French 2.70
Degrees German 1.51

Above is my water hardness and it is 70ppm at highest. Ph is 7.4 How do i fix this?
 
Last edited:

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
You don't in the way you propose.

You have to check and adjust you pH daily in any hydroponic style.
Even if you go to RO. You will have to check and adjust that daily also..

Switch to water only S.Soil and water and walk away...Yup daily is a growing thing no matter what style you do...You should be looking at the plant everyday.....I like to.

Doc
 

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
Wtf dude!
You don't in the way you propose.

You have to check and adjust you pH daily in any hydroponic style.
Even if you go to RO. You will have to check and adjust that daily also..

Switch to water only S.Soil and water and walk away...Yup daily is a growing thing no matter what style you do...You should be looking at the plant everyday.....I like to.

Doc
I dont want to use s.soil as rockwool is my lifestyle choice.

Im looking to not have to check my res daily.

Sometimes i feel like im writing these questions in crayon!
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
Wtf dude!


I dont want to use s.soil as rockwool is my lifestyle choice.

Im looking to not have to check my res daily.

Sometimes i feel like im writing these questions in crayon!
damn, there is a LOT of disrespect on these forums recently.
He was offering a solution to your QUESTION...
:wall:
@Dr.Who so lets just calmly back ourselves, back into the organics area man.
 

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
Grow up dude, neither of you have offered any practical advice such as bubbling Co2, adding conjugate bases/acids to buffer carbonates, ph perfect ferts etc etc.
 
Last edited:

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Grow up dude, neither of you have offered any practical advice such as bubbling Co2, adding conjugate bases/acids to buffer carbonates, ph perfect ferts etc etc.
OK. Let me say this again s-l-o-w-l-y, so you understand. :wall:

You MUST monitor and adjust the pH of res tanks in hydroponics daily.
THERE - IS - NO - WAY - TO - SLOW - DOWN - NATURAL - pH - FLUCTUATIONS - IN - HYDRO - APPLICATIONS!

Now to be nice again. I'll add this....
Even if you did use a "pH perfect" nutrient or do "what ever" for that matter......As the plants in the system feed. They can change the pH of the solution recirculating with in the system enough in a 24 hr period to REQUIRE adjustment....It should move up and you now have to adjust down......
The use of RO water will not change the natural pH fluctuations either!

What you propose can NOT be done! :o

Understand now? :clap: There is NO solution to your request! :!::(:!:
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
If you do not want to monitor a res daily hydro is not for you. You could get a monitoring system that will take care of it for you. But they can be expensive and could cut into your crayon and coloring book money.
Ah, yes. A complete computer controlled system......I did not mention that as no hobby grower would spend that kind of money to do "walk away" growing on an grow room scale.
They have them and unless your growing in a warehouse sized grow op, that feeds a major outlet.....The price of a system like that is WAY beyond any single growers wallet ability.

I set one up for a fresh packaged herb grower in the area......Setting up and calibrating the system was a pain.....I ended up working for the guy actually running the op for a about a year till I said "no more, find someone else".....The guy was a jerk!

Ed Rosenthal sets up these a lot! (just saying)..

Doc
 

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
If you do not want to monitor a res daily hydro is not for you. You could get a monitoring system that will take care of it for you. But they can be expensive and could cut into your crayon and coloring book money.

So if i had a 200litre res for one small plant i would not need to check daily! Surely your the one that shouldnt be in hydro!
 

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
E
OK. Let me say this again s-l-o-w-l-y, so you understand. :wall:

You MUST monitor and adjust the pH of res tanks in hydroponics daily.
THERE - IS - NO - WAY - TO - SLOW - DOWN - NATURAL - pH - FLUCTUATIONS - IN - HYDRO - APPLICATIONS!

Now to be nice again. I'll add this....
Even if you did use a "pH perfect" nutrient or do "what ever" for that matter......As the plants in the system feed. They can change the pH of the solution recirculating with in the system enough in a 24 hr period to REQUIRE adjustment....It should move up and you now have to adjust down......
The use of RO water will not change the natural pH fluctuations either!

What you propose can NOT be done! :o

Understand now? :clap: There is NO solution to your request! :!::(:!:

Ok i understand what your saying but it dosent fit right, im gona hopefully explain to some extent why water resists its ph being changed and why maybe my water keeps trying to shoot upto it original ph after adding acid.

First of as i understand anything acidic contains H+ or hydrogen and anything alkaline contains OH- or hydroxide. We add these together in equal amounts and we create water of neutral ph 7 or H2O. If we add acids and alkalines we change this balance or "POTENTIAL HYDROGEN" i.e. Ph. This part is simple but buffers really mix up this chemistry.

Now i will try to explain a simple scenario that happens to tap water as it falls from the sky and picks up co2 and calcium carbonate before coming out of your tap. Calcium carbonate is the most abundant minerl (metalic salt) in tap water. You see my water hardness in my first post where it details the levels of both Calcium Ca and Calcium Carbonate CaCo3. Now H2o readily dissolves Co2 from the air around it, H2o falls as rain dissolving Co2 to make carbonic acid

H2o + Co2 = H2Co3 (carbonic acid)

This carbonic acid H2Co3 then passes over Calcium carbonate CaCo3 making

H2Co3 + CaCo3 = Ca(HCo3)2

At this point i need to explain what a carbonate is because its important. A carbonate is Co3, its made when water and Co2 join, notice the carbonate Co3 at the end of carbonic acid CaCo3. The conjugate base of a carbonate is HCo3 or bicarbonate i think.

So our tapwater can hold good amounts of Ca(HCo3)2 but what happens if we add an acid or H to our solution, lets attempt the chemistry which goes well above my head and add that great ph down acid or phosphoric acid H3Po4 and see what happens to the extra H acidic hydrogen

Ca(HCo3)2 + H3Po4 = Ca3(Po4)2 + H2o + Co2

So that reaction basically precipitates the calcium out of solution making a calcium phosphate Ca3(Po4)2 some Co2 and water H2o but no acid, the acidic H hydrogen joined with the acidic H in carbonic acid then borrowed an O oxygen and formed water which as we already know from ph is neutral 7.

This ladies and gents is my best decription i can give of a buffer and Co2 can change acidity levels without any calcium as carbonic acid H2Co3 as its acidic and probably why bubbling tap water affects ph.

Now Co2 and minerals like CaCo3 are two outa the three reasons ph can swing, temp/air pressure are the third.

I know very lityle and am just learning but i thought this was basic hydro 101 but seems like your more intrested in my colouring book.

Anyone feel the need to add or correct my chemistry then cool as i know i suck at pure chem.
 

Alexander Supertramp

Well-Known Member
Ok i understand what your saying but it dosent fit right, im gona hopefully explain to some extent why water resists its ph being changed and why maybe my water keeps trying to shoot upto it original ph after adding acid.

First of as i understand anything acidic contains H+ or hydrogen and anything alkaline contains OH- or hydroxide. We add these together in equal amounts and we create water of neutral ph 7 or H2O. If we add acids and alkalines we change this balance or "POTENTIAL HYDROGEN" i.e. Ph. This part is simple but buffers really mix up this chemistry.

Now i will try to explain a simple scenario that happens to tap water as it falls from the sky and picks up co2 and calcium carbonate before coming out of your tap. Calcium carbonate is the most abundant minerl (metalic salt) in tap water. You see my water hardness in my first post where it details the levels of both Calcium Ca and Calcium Carbonate CaCo3. Now H2o readily dissolves Co2 from the air around it, H2o falls as rain dissolving Co2 to make carbonic acid

H2o + Co2 = H2Co3 (carbonic acid)

This carbonic acid H2Co3 then passes over Calcium carbonate CaCo3 making

H2Co3 + CaCo3 = Ca(HCo3)2

At this point i need to explain what a carbonate is because its important. A carbonate is Co3, its made when water and Co2 join, notice the carbonate Co3 at the end of carbonic acid CaCo3. The conjugate base of a carbonate is HCo3 or bicarbonate Yes that stuff in baking soda NaCo3.

So our tapwater can hold good amounts of Ca(HCo3)2 but what happens if we add an acid or H to our solution, lets attempt the chemistry which goes well above my head and add that great ph down acid or phosphoric acid H3Po4 and see what happens to the extra H acidic hydrogen

Ca(HCo3)2 + H3Po4 = Ca3(Po4)2 + H2o + Co2

So that reaction basically precipitates the calcium out of solution making a calcium phosphate Ca3(Po4)2 some Co2 and water H2o but no acid, the acidic H hydrogen joined with the acidic H in carbonic acid then borrowed an O oxygen and formed water which as we already know from ph is neutral 7.

This ladies and gents is my best decription i can give of a buffer and Co2 can change acidity levels without any calcium as carbonic acid H2Co3 as its acidic and probably why bubbling tap water affects ph.

Now Co2 and minerals like CaCo3 are two outa the three reasons ph can swing, temp/air pressure are the third.

I know very lityle and am just learning but i thought this was basic hydro 101 but seems like your more intrested in my colouring book.

Anyone feel the need to add or correct my chemistry then cool as i know i suck at pure chem.
I have yet to meet a plant or hydro system that can read and understand science.They are the science. The thing is a hydro system is an ever changing environment. You obviously know your shit.(rolling my eyes) so I am confused why you ask such a simplistic question? Oh wait, now I remember. You like to throw out a question. Ignore any advice given. Then try and correct others so you can make yourself look smart. At least you have at least one constant going for you. Plus a nicely edited copy/paste from the web above..[pre edit version: Now i will try to explain a simple scenario that happens to tap water as it falls from the sky and picks up co2 and calcium carbonate before coming out of your tap. Calcium carbonate is the most abundant mineral (metallic salt) in tap water. You see my water hardness in my first post where it details the levels of both Calcium Ca and Calcium Carbonate CaCo3. Now H2o readily dissolves Co2 from the air around it, H2o falls as rain dissolving Co2 to make carbonic acid H2o + Co2 = H2Co3 (carbonic acid) This carbonic acid H2Co3 thenpassed over Calcium carbonate CaCo3 making H2Co3 + CaCo3 = Ca(HCo3)2] Bravo! Anyways good luck.
 
Last edited:

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
I have yet to meet a plant or hydro system that can read and understand science. Your science is close to correct. But the thing is a hydro system is an ever changing environment. You obviously know your shit.(rolling my eyes) so I am confused why you ask such a simplistic question. Anyways good luck.

Umm ph up and down didnt work so i was asking what peeps do at this point?!

How does knowing the science make me a pro at keeping res's, i dont know which path to take next and being a site where you can ask experienced growers advice.... Well i dont need to explain the rest...

I got all your experience and answers as always, change to soil or throw loads of ph down into the res daily.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Aw,come on you guys........I've had enough of this shit with ,,,, well,,,cannabil.....
Anyway......Sadly 2Hearts, no matter what you do. Hydro will change pH by the plants feeding exchange with the solution (YES, the plant puts back and that is the "rise" in ppm that has you exchange the res periodically).....Not to mention you should be running an air stone in the res too.....These have cause and effect. The pH changes.

I'm not trying to be a tool.....It's just the way it is....No matter what chemistry you quote on (nice post by the way)....

Sometimes, (nutrient brand dependent and the supplements you add to the base) it does take quite a bit to adjust....There maybe other things in the water you use that effects the pH in relation to the actions of plant growth.....

In my past, when I did hydro a lot. My average daily adjustment for any 5 gallon DWC was anywhere from 2-5ml of down.....
You might try Mad farmer's pH adjusters....Their down takes 1/2 the amount to make a 1.0 change then all the others I used....If it's all phosphoric acid.....find something else as it's not the best thing for plants......

Let me ask this.....You adjust to your sweet spot. How much does it swing in 24hrs?
How big is your res?
What pH adjusters are you using?
What nutrients?
What is your set range (ie 5.8 -6.2) and what do you adjust to?
What is the waters pH before adding anything?
Whats the waters ppm before you add anything?

With these answers I should be able to give a better solution.

Doc
 

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
Aw,come on you guys........I've had enough of this shit with ,,,, well,,,cannabil.....
Anyway......Sadly 2Hearts, no matter what you do. Hydro will change pH by the plants feeding exchange with the solution (YES, the plant puts back and that is the "rise" in ppm that has you exchange the res periodically).....Not to mention you should be running an air stone in the res too.....These have cause and effect. The pH changes.

I'm not trying to be a tool.....It's just the way it is....No matter what chemistry you quote on (nice post by the way)....

Sometimes, (nutrient brand dependent and the supplements you add to the base) it does take quite a bit to adjust....There maybe other things in the water you use that effects the pH in relation to the actions of plant growth.....

In my past, when I did hydro a lot. My average daily adjustment for any 5 gallon DWC was anywhere from 2-5ml of down.....
You might try Mad farmer's pH adjusters....Their down takes 1/2 the amount to make a 1.0 change then all the others I used....If it's all phosphoric acid.....find something else as it's not the best thing for plants......

Let me ask this.....You adjust to your sweet spot. How much does it swing in 24hrs?
How big is your res?
What pH adjusters are you using?
What nutrients?
What is your set range (ie 5.8 -6.2) and what do you adjust to?
What is the waters pH before adding anything?
Whats the waters ppm before you add anything?

With these answers I should be able to give a better solution.

Doc
If i ph to 5.8 two days later its 7.3 which is what it came outa the tap at.

I feel like im giving all the answers here but say you had one plant with a 500 litre res and water nutes held at 5.8 for a week. Now say you add one plant to this res it will not be able to change 500litres of ph'ed nutes very quickly, maybe .1 to .2 a week. Now with these principles daily res checks now become weekly res checks. You will note in some threads ph swings can be caused by too small a res.

Im not saying run 500 litre res for each plant but hopefully your seeing some variables we can change to our advantages. Add in a comercial controller and we no longer need to even visit our grow room, we can do it from our i-phone whilst having a shit on the toilet.

Now im in rockwool 1.5" cubes practicing and getting them variables right soon to buy an aero cloner. I just noticed my tap water swings, read all i could then thought what would work best, Ro machine, ph perfect nutes etc so i can start contemplating my next move. There are cheap and exspensive options but rather the cheap than buying and fitting an ro machine.
 

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
I need to find someone who uses them in a similar situation, i know my vitalink plantstart buffers the water to 5.8 but you need to addquite a bit before it will hold at 5.8. I believe ph nutes make use of this buffering science but am not impressed so far. Ro is just h2o and no buffer so this seems more what ph perfect would be suitable for.

So many questions but most if it im trying to google for myself.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
500L res! close to 130 gallons....Doesn't matter - It will NOT hold pH for even one day, let alone a week. It can't be done!
Not even close....the average daily adjustment would be like 100ml to 160ml of down give or take.

Your res change of 2.0 and in rockwool is indicating that the rockwool was not conditioned enough/incorrectly and is effecting the pH...
Did you condition the rockwool? How?

You may "feel" your giving all the answers here. But with out some answers to our questions, we cannot give you the quality answer you want...

Let me say this again. You can use all the science of water chemistry you want. You WILL have to monitor and adjust your pH DAILY! THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT! Google all you want, it will not change this!

If you go to RO. You WILL have to add a Ca/Mg at approx 5ml a gallon to that! Just to make the plant grow without defs. (now you've added a buffer back)

Sorry, but if you think that growing can be a "lackadaisical" affair. You will NEVER master growing Cannabis! You cannot bend hydro to your will.......Bottom line.....

Your Rockwool was not conditioned properly. You should be seeing a pH swing of like 0.2 - 0.5, Maybe 1.0...
Your getting a pH swing of 2.0 and it swings back too fast to be anything but a problem with the Rockwool...

All Rockwool is not created equal.....If it's not Grodan and it's a cheap alternative......THAT could be the problem too....I've seen this myself!

Doc
 

2Hearts

Well-Known Member
500L res! close to 130 gallons....Doesn't matter - It will NOT hold pH for even one day, let alone a week. It can't be done!
Not even close....the average daily adjustment would be like 100ml to 160ml of down give or take.

Your res change of 2.0 and in rockwool is indicating that the rockwool was not conditioned enough/incorrectly and is effecting the pH...
Did you condition the rockwool? How?

You may "feel" your giving all the answers here. But with out some answers to our questions, we cannot give you the quality answer you want...

Let me say this again. You can use all the science of water chemistry you want. You WILL have to monitor and adjust your pH DAILY! THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT! Google all you want, it will not change this!

If you go to RO. You WILL have to add a Ca/Mg at approx 5ml a gallon to that! Just to make the plant grow without defs. (now you've added a buffer back)

Sorry, but if you think that growing can be a "lackadaisical" affair. You will NEVER master growing Cannabis! You cannot bend hydro to your will.......Bottom line.....

Your Rockwool was not conditioned properly. You should be seeing a pH swing of like 0.2 - 0.5, Maybe 1.0...
Your getting a pH swing of 2.0 and it swings back too fast to be anything but a problem with the Rockwool...

All Rockwool is not created equal.....If it's not Grodan and it's a cheap alternative......THAT could be the problem too....I've seen this myself!

Doc
Dude im actually quite enjoying the discussion now and on those very rare ocassions its a shame we cant be face to face blazing a doob maybe chat about some hot chicks and get to the bottom of this. My point being the internet sucks!

Theres so many points here that its hard for us both to get a word in ( that and more than one thing at a time and im fucked :-) ) so lets go with yours first and thats 'Cube Prep'.

I buy and order grodan on line and from my local hydro store, they are registered sellers and all 1.5 cubes come in white 24 cell holder trays with a plastic clear sealed outer sleeve and paper insert showing a bottle of clonex and a cube with what looks like a clone of some broad leaved salad leaf or somthing idk. The back of the paper insert has pics of formulex clonex and some zyme or somthing, i always throw them and dont have one around. It also has prep and how to clone advice. To prep they advise a soak in formelex for short time ph 5ish etc.

Nothing i have done i.e. Ph, soak time, multiple flushes and soaks, ec or just ph tap has ever made a difference and ive been through 50 in last few weeks easy, a simple soak one hour gave exactly same results as the rest.

What did make a the only difference was getting the watering right. Below is a plant i half got right and a seedling in front that got overwatered (even though i thought id got watering right!). I know the seedling was overwatered because it germed in 3 days from seed only to halt growth when first true leaves were tiny, its growing better now but i caught it turning away from the light for couple days then bingo i watered less kept cube less soaked and it started reaching for the lights again.

I always seem to have over under water issues and hard to get totally right till a larger volume of roots grow. Those white cell holders keep the side and bottom roots moist when water is low nicely. I use a unheated propogator to till seeds pop and dosent seem to matter how wet the cubes are in the propogator.

Another thing ive tried lots of is no ferts vs ferts, every bit of litreature, bottle of ferts, cube packaging recomends average 0.8ec pre soak germination ans small seedlings, mine also seem best here and believe me they take off as oppose to plain watered ones theres just no dispute for me.

I cant detail things more and dont think think this stage is a problem for me plus ive run most ways possible and just gone with what gives me results. If i get watering right there is nothing but green but when i mess ul its purple stems and brown roots. Pics speak more than words and your average noob aint growing seedlings in rockwool as nice as mine generally but then again im still screwing up worse than a newb witb that stunted pale purple seedling in front, rootz are so fragile in this small cube at a young stage its easy to fuck up big. I hope that sort of ok plant in the background is showing you im close and shows how the main problem in rockwool is mainly watering.

Cubes are not in a res, ph is maintained daily so i dont think it will become an issue till i havea res going.

Btw i own most good ferts, ph ec meters lights and temps humidity are all great all the time.



2015-08-12 19.53.48.jpg
 
Last edited:
Top