PH problems in new ebb and flow setup !!

New here so bear with me. Have been doing soil and soiless for years, just recently switched to hydro.


Setup:

I am running 100% Hydroton on a 4X8 table with a 110 gallon res. Also have a tiny 2X3 veg ebb and flow with a 20 gallon res. I am running an airstone on each reservoir. Using Advanced Sensi A&B grow and bloom. I use a little bit of Earth Juice PH down initially to get my PH in the 5.8 range.

Problem:

PH keeps going up Small tray the PH is going up super fast even with new water and nutes. Every day I need to adjust it a substantial amount. It will go up to 6.5 in 24 hours The large res is taking a little longer thank god. Still though it is going up a lot. Will reach 6.5 and I adjust it back down only to find it goes right back by the next day.

This PH business is for the birds.. What really burns me is I went with Advanced for their "PH Perfect" and it turns out they havent released it yet despite ads stating they are using it now for months and months. Hell I didnt even check my PH on the big tray for the first 3 weeks and everything looked good. Still looks great but I feel I might be cutting myself short with incorrect PH levels. The small tray I did have some lockout issues earlier on. Right now as long as I adjust it EVERY SINGLE DAY Things look happy. Real PITA though and was hoping for some input. The reservoirs should be large enough to not have these kinds of swings IMO. Advanced is supposed to be fairly PH stable too even the old formula.


Input , ideas??

Thank you

I reccomend using PH up or down and I have no problems with it stabilizing... make sure no light hits the water EVER.

reefcouple said:

I reccomend using PH up or down and I have no problems with it stabilizing... make sure no light hits the water EVER.

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Thanks for fast reply !

Never had an issue with the Earth Juice PH down. I mean I can put it in a tank and it stays the same in both regular water and also water with nutes in it for days and days, no swings at all. Only had this problem once I switched to ebb and flow.

Light does hit the water. I am in a Ebb and flow so I dont know how I could really avoid that. I change my reservoir every 7 days and clean it out starting with fresh filtered water.

Again plants look very happy but I know I am losing out on its full potential with these swings.

I'd like to add that the large res is not covered but it is under the tray and no direct light is hitting it. The small res I have totally covered top to bottom and it is the one giving the most problems.

dlively11 said:

Thanks for fast reply !

Never had an issue with the Earth Juice PH down. I mean I can put it in a tank and it stays the same in both regular water and also water with nutes in it. Only had this problem once I switched to ebb and flow.

Light does hit the water. I am in a Ebb and flow so I dont know how I could really avoid that. I change my reservoir every 7 days and clean it out starting with fresh filtered water.

Again plants look very happy but I know I am losing out on its full potential with these swings.

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I'm and ebb and flow guy as well..

I had the same issues, go to home depot, buy a large piece of dark plastic (i bought an FRB or FRP (cant remember the exact name) board, Mine was a 4x8 foot white plastic board. I cut it so fit the tray and drilled 5" holes with a 5" hole bit (cost me 40bucks) and have never had the problem since...

good luck bud.

Since light is hitting the water your PH will sky rocket and start to bloom algae, then the algae will choke out the roots... Add some hydrogen peroxide. With a 100 gallon res you should be able to dump the full bottle (8oz) directly in your res.. just as long as your not adding any zymes you'll be fine...

reefcouple said:

Since light is hitting the water your PH will sky rocket and start to bloom algae, then the algae will choke out the roots... Add some hydrogen peroxide. With a 100 gallon res you should be able to dump the full bottle (8oz) directly in your res.. just as long as your not adding any zymes you'll be fine...

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Have had some minor algae on the table. I" am using Dutchmaster Zone to kill off nasties but still get some algae. Peroxide work better? I thought you had to use specific peroxide safe for plants not the regular stuff you get at the store. Local shop sells the 30% stuff for about $30 a gallon. Thought about it but thought I was ok with the Zone being a Chloromine and all. Was using regular old bleach for the first few weeks. Got tired of white spots popping up all over my clothes though

Are you saying the Algae can cause the PH to go up or is that just another problem I will have due to the light hitting the water during floods? Does seem like the problem gets worse on the big tray a few days after clean water is put in.

Small tray has light hitting it as well.
Thank you

I swear by the peroxide.. its always done me good when needed.. it just gives those roots that extra oxygen and breaks dow the build up.. others swear by micro nutes and zymes, i've used both often and prefer the hydrogen peroxide..

Algae will grow when your PH is too high, caused from light exposure, then the algae will consume the oxygen in the water and choke out the plants.. The Peroxide will kill and breakdown the algae turning it into beneficial sugars for the plant.

Its worth a try for you.. And definately work on getting the table covered, then you can get back to those zymes and micro nutes if you like em...

~cheers

Thanks again for the info. Here is an update. I dropped the PH on my large res right after lights off yesterday. Right before lights on I found the PH was way up again !! WTF ? I stirred the res very well and slowly got the PH down . I am really stumped as to why the PH would still go up with no lights being on and the plants not being watered. Also it is taking a LOT of my PH down. Normally I can add like 2-3 tablespoons to res now I am putting in closer to 10 a day. Strange stuff going on here....

ill bump this one

Did you thoroughly clean the hydroton before use? What is your water temp? Where do you get it? If it is well water, it will do strange things when the water table changes. I know it's filtered but do you mean RO or just something like a Brita? Take a PH reading of the water before use. My well water was at PH 8 + and even though I filtered, I still experienced high PH swings. After I went to RO, no problems. I am also running Sensi Grow in 100% hydroton and have no PH problems. Keep an eye out for N deficiencies, Sensi has some Urea in it that is useless in the hydroton. You may need to boost N up a point by adding a little more part A. So far I am very impressed with Sensi.

patlpp said:

Did you thoroughly clean the hydroton before use? What is your water temp? Where do you get it? If it is well water, it will do strange things when the water table changes. I know it's filtered but do you mean RO or just something like a Brita? Take a PH reading of the water before use. My well water was at PH 8 + and even though I filtered, I still experienced high PH swings. After I went to RO, no problems. I am also running Sensi Grow in 100% hydroton and have no PH problems. Keep an eye out for N deficiencies, Sensi has some Urea in it that is useless in the hydroton. You may need to boost N up a point by adding a little more part A. So far I am very impressed with Sensi.

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Yeah I cleaned the Hydroton really well prior to use. Ran water through the hydroton filled pots to further clean it out.

Not RO water. We have Spring water with our water company and I then run it through three inline cartridge filters. Water is a touch under 7 PH when I first test it with nothing in it. When I add all my nutes it is right about 6. Temps are pretty cold when I first pour the water in Probably 55-60. I change the res out right after lights off so it has 12 hours to warm up a little at least. Does your RO water have any real pressure to it? We have RO going to our upstairs but it takes forever to fill a glass let alone a 100 gallon res.

I'll agree the Sensi A and B is working great for me in bloom right now at 6 weeks in despite the PH issues I am having.

dlively11 said:

Does your RO water have any real pressure to it? We have RO going to our upstairs but it takes forever to fill a glass let alone a 100 gallon res.

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I am small time so RO is reasonable. My pressure is mediocre (45 to 60 lbs, alternating) so it takes about an 30 to 45 min/gal. even though they claim 4 gal/hr. They make pumps to boost it but costs too much.

Hope the best for you man, I know it sucks pumping PH down in your system all the time. The Earth Juice PH down, what exactly is in it that makes it "natural?". Maybe you should give it a shot and try General Hydroponics PH down which has phosphoric acid, citric acid and ammonium phosphate. There is nothing "natural" or organic about your grow. H2O2 is definitely a +

patlpp said:

I am small time so RO is reasonable. My pressure is mediocre (45 to 60 lbs, alternating) so it takes about an 30 to 45 min/gal. even though they claim 4 gal/hr. They make pumps to boost it but costs too much.

Hope the best for you man, I know it sucks pumping PH down in your system all the time. The Earth Juice PH down, what exactly is in it that makes it "natural?". Maybe you should give it a shot and try General Hydroponics PH down which has phosphoric acid, citric acid and ammonium phosphate. There is nothing "natural" or organic about your grow. H2O2 is definitely a +

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Not sure whats in it , I got it because it was more economical then the GH PH down. Maybe I will try that as well. Very frustrating.

dlively11 said:

Thanks again for the info. Here is an update. I dropped the PH on my large res right after lights off yesterday. Right before lights on I found the PH was way up again !! WTF ? I stirred the res very well and slowly got the PH down . I am really stumped as to why the PH would still go up with no lights being on and the plants not being watered. Also it is taking a LOT of my PH down. Normally I can add like 2-3 tablespoons to res now I am putting in closer to 10 a day. Strange stuff going on here....

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I would clean everything out... I know its a pain in the ass, but do it before you lose the plants... and make sure to rinse your pellets...

best of luck, let me know how its going, i'll keep an eye on this thread.

~cheers

I agree with patlpp, get some GH PH down. Sounds like what you're using is weak and wearing off. And I would definitely get some H2O2 or some Hydroguard (dont use both, they counteract each other). Is your PPM's rising, falling, or staying steady?

Hey Dlively. I have a small ebb and flow setup similar to yours that I started about a week ago. I have been noticing some funky pH rises also, but maybe because I have a 5 gal reservoir and pump about 4 gal into my plants during flood... At first I soaked my rockwool and rinsed out my hydroton pellets thoroughly. My water was 150ppm, I pH adjusted it between 5 and 6 (I'm using cheap color drops) and then added nutes up to near 300ppm. About 4 days later (first time I checked pH cuz I'm new) the pH came out around 7!! I shit my pants! So while changing water I noticed a few scary things yesterday. I had nute buildup on the stones and I had a mild slime on my water pump power cord. I flushed with just tap water and boiled 5 gal of tap water and let it cool. The ppm is now like... 250-300 though from the tap (possibly from all the rain we got) but the pH has stayed stable overnight even with mild light exposure.

Sorry for the long reply. I plan on cutting out some reflective foam chunks to surround my plants and block light for two reason:

1) It helps avoid mold and bacterial growth on my rockwool.
2) It apparently (from this thread) prevents the water from rising in pH.

If I still have problems after this week I will buy black plastic and wrap it around my reservoir.

Check out my grow (in sig) maybe we can work together since we have similar problems.

Keep in touch, I'll keep reading and posting as I learn...

Are you using an airstone? I just left mine on all day and the PH went from around 5 to 6.5 in one day. Apparently driving off Co2 increases the pH. I turned off the stone and I'm going to measure it in the morning. I may leave the airstone on 24/7 and adjust the pH accordingly, I haven't decided. Also something I noticed is a mild "fish tank" smell when it was bubbling up, possibly indicating algae. I am going to get H2O2 this week to fix that.

Small update.

I cleaned out my reservoirs both the 100 gallon and the 20 gallon . Added fresh water and one teaspoon of bleach per 10 gallons to kill bacteria. Added nutes the set the PH. 100 gal the PH only drifted from 5.8 to 5.9 yesterday. I have yet to check it today. The Vegging try that went up the fastest probably due to the fact it is on 20 hours a day only went up two tenths. I lowered the amounts of floods on the Veg tray from every 3 hours to 5 hours now which I am sure helped.

This is with Airstones running in both reservoirs as well.

I am thinking perhaps it was a bacteria causing the drastic swings. Maybe the Dutch mater Zone wasnt strong enough to nuke whatever was in there.

Will update again later today once I get in there and see what they are doing after another cycle. So far it appears better atleast.

Still looking good. Just going up a few tenths every day. Seems normal atleast.

Okay, I've been doing some research and conclude the following: Alkalinity should not be confused with Ph. Alkalinity acts as a buffer and causes the water to bounce around. If there are dissolved solid's (measured in EC/ppm) these elements can cause a buffering effect and the Ph will bounce around. If Ph is Potential Hydrogen, maybe Alkalinity would be more easily understood as "Potential Alkaline". If you're using reverse osmosis water, I believe the Ph will be much more stable as the dissolved solids will not be present (or as abundant) to buffer the acid from having and holding it's proper effect on the water.

My personal experience has been with water bouncing between 190ppm and 390ppm. I'm filling up my newly installed RO tank and float valve storage tank I added on.

This is a simple article that talks about Alkalinity. http://www.h2ou.com/h2wtrqual.htm as well as a bunch of other water quality information.

In short, using RO water will make life easier from what I gather.