Organics ARE chemicals

Illumination said:

I agree with the op...organics are chems and this whole organic thing is another industry hype to increase sales and profits...period

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You agree before reading the primary posts in this thread?

Obviously a bottle of organic nutrients contains chemicals, because everything is made up of chemicals. But of course you can grow organically and not purchase anything at all, which would be ideal. So you have to know what it is you're really trying to arguing about, first of all. That would be getting into 'synthetic' nutrients or high NPK chemical nutrients versus natural amendments and biota?

Most people will never have the slightest idea what really goes on in the rhizosphere. But organics as an industry certainly isn't ALL hype. In the natural world, outdoors, people fail to realize that soil is ALIVE and that the life in soil is what makes it fertile. Organic amendments feed the soil; soil biota (bacteria, archea, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, arthropods) keep it healthy and able to sustain plant growth by harness various natural cycles (Nitrogen, Sulfur, etc.) and breaking dead organic matter down to their constituent nutrients. Plant roots even exude carbohydrates and other compounds into the rhizosphere expressly because they want microbes in their root zones. The plant knows the microbe will do a lot of good for it, either by feeding it or protecting it from bad microbes.

Chemical nutrients (high NPK), applied to soil outdoors will decimate the fungi, which is very fragile, and other biota as well. Very little of it reaches the root zone and is absorbed. The rest of it leaches out of the soil solution. Some of it, of course, goes on to form complexes with other soil components, but then the plant still doesn't have access to it.... and now the plant doesn't have the microbes to make it available either.

When you start applying chemical nutrients to outdoor soil and keep it up, you will have to apply more and more frequently. Your soil becomes addicted to chemical nutrients. Now you have no balance, and no sustenance.

Organics is no joke. But, anything can be turned into a marketing gimmick. If anything chemical nutrients were just that when they first came out in 1928. No one applied those sort of chemicals to their lawn prior to that year, but the lawn still grew.

I started this thread a year ago and perhaps in that time I have learned to state my point in a less inflammatory and less ambiguous manner.

The organic label (not method, not choice of nutes) in the context of marketing reflects an ideology more often than it reflects science; science being evidence based knowledge. Those who imply to patients that synthetically grown bud is more harmful to consume than organically grown bud are not appealing to the preservation of our world, not appealing to a more harmonious and less dangerous grow method; they are appealing to the immediate concern for personal health, of which I feel there are none unique to synthetics. If someone were to show evidence, as opposed to speculation, that there are immediate health concerns specific to synthetics, id have to reconsider my statement.

Heisenberg said:

I started this thread a year ago and perhaps in that time I have learned to state my point in a less inflammatory and less ambiguous way.

The organic label (not method, not choice of nutes) in the context of marketing reflects an ideology more often than it reflects science; science being evidence based knowledge. Those who imply to patients that synthetically grown bud is more harmful to consume than organically grown bud are not appealing to the preservation of our world, not appealing to a more harmonious and less dangerous grow method; they are appealing to the immediate concern for personal health, of which I feel there are none unique to synthetics. If someone were to show evidence, as opposed to speculation, that there are immediate health concerns specific to synthetics, id have to reconsider my statement.

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sounds logical to mee

GUESS WHAT GUYS, I AM A CHEMIST!!
And, I can assure you that even pure Water is a chemical.
Don't believe me?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_substance

And yes, even organic fert's can be HAZARDOUS.
Look at some fish emulsions (high heavy metal content) and some mined rock phosphates (radioactive). Enough said, thread- over.

^It's true, that's part of the reason why American tobacco has such a polonium 210 content (apatite rock phosphates). But you still can't discount the power of microbes in the rhizosphere.

microbial nutrient cycling isn't covered in the CHEM department...

looking at growing a plant, from purely a chemical view, is a major fail... that's why i studied premed.

organic in horticulture is a very different meaning than in chem.

I run a small farm/organic nursery. I find this post a little strange and lacking much basis. I think the biggest difference IMHO, is the bacterial, fungal, and just plain life in your soil. I can use a watering can full of miracle grow all day on my tomatoes and they will get nice a big, they will look great, but after you bite into one there is just something missing. When you bite into a tomato that has love and care, grown in organics that tomato is a fruit, the difference is unreal. The amount of different proteins and trace minerals makes a huge difference in your plants flavor, texture, and longevity. You are eating whatever you feed to the soil, and I know for a fact I can taste my finished compost without a problem, can you taste your chemical fertilizer? (I should make this 'processed fertilizer' because it's the processing that is bad, not the true organics)

The same is true for MJ. Especially with something that many of us consume on a regular basis. Why anyone would want to constantly put more chemicals into their bodies is beyond me, with a fully organic grow cycle you let nature take the work out of getting rid of those pesky chemicals that the plant was not able to break down. MJ we put into our bodies everyday, why on earth would we want anything less then natural....

I would also like to say if you are not creating your own organics, then you are no better then the chemical guys, I don't see much difference in buying products labeled orgainc, or not, however if you are using your own compost, digging your own soil, and brewing your own teas with what you find yourself; you can limit all of the BS that even the organic producers put in their ferts. Learn to love the land, learn to compost, learn to enrich soil, then you can see for yourself the differences of processed fertilizer to natural.

Matt Rize said:

microbial nutrient cycling isn't covered in the CHEM department...

looking at growing a plant, from purely a chemical view, is a major fail... that's why i studied premed.

organic in horticulture is a very different meaning than in chem.

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Totally agree, you can't look at one aspect of anything. I think the OP explained what he was trying to convey quite well but we have some very strong opinions on the matter. The subject of "Organic vs. Chemical" is always hotly debated. I have always used a combination and I have great success using both. Outdoors I wouldn't even consider using anything other than "organic" amendments and methods. Indoors is a totally different ballgame and I find it EXTREMELY difficult to do those same practices indoors. Many of us simply don't have the time or space for compost heaps and worm farms and all of that business. If you can pull off completely "organic" growing indoors, and I know many people who do, then I say "Right on!" For those who can't and have the need for "chemical" nutrients I say "Right on!" If you and your patients are happy with their medicine and it's grown responsibly and thoughtfully I believe both methods are completely safe for the end user.

cannatricks said:

I would also like to say if you are not creating your own organics, then you are no better then the chemical guys, I don't see much difference in buying products labeled orgainc, or not, however if you are using your own compost, digging your own soil, and brewing your own teas with what you find yourself; you can limit all of the BS that even the organic producers put in their ferts. Learn to love the land, learn to compost, learn to enrich soil, then you can see for yourself the differences of processed fertilizer to natural.

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THANK YOU!!!!!!!

I have been wanting to put that thought into words for ages and never quite could.

*Processed* fertilizer says it all.

Wet

Sorry but inhaling PARTICULATE matter assuredly causes way more damage to you than any "chem grown" weed...those supposedly so concerned about the health of their "patients" need to stop them from inhaling particulate matter...that alone will improve their "health"so much there's no need to worry about those evil "chems" that are used to grow all the FOOD YOU EAT!

Namaste'

Lol, what do you think smoking weed is... inhaling, actually trying to inhale particulate matter... Just saying "But so and so it worse!" is kinda like saying "You can lose a finger, but don't worry about that, losing an arm is what you have to worry about."

Just because the world is full of chemicals, and particulates, and radioactive isotopes does not mean that we should give up any little way to improve our overall health. I tend to think so on medicine more then many others. Most of us patients switched to MJ for a natural alternative, we do care about the little amount of chemicals in our weed, I worry about guys like you using pesticides on my weed, and I rue the day when our medicine becomes nothing more then another big pharma business.

cannatricks said:

Lol, what do you think smoking weed is... inhaling, actually trying to inhale particulate matter... Just saying "But so and so it worse!" is kinda like saying "You can lose a finger, but don't worry about that, losing an arm is what you have to worry about."

Just because the world is full of chemicals, and particulates, and radioactive isotopes does not mean that we should give up any little way to improve our overall health. I tend to think so on medicine more then many others. Most of us patients switched to MJ for a natural alternative, we do care about the little amount of chemicals in our weed, I worry about guys like you using pesticides on my weed, and I rue the day when our medicine becomes nothing more then another big pharma business.

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It's all about what's important to the individual. Many of us started growing our own because we didn't want to pay outrageous street prices, or we didn't want to deal with shady dealers anymore, and some of us were even concerned about how our medicine was being grown. Can anyone say paraquat? I know so many people that bitch and moan about eating all "organic" foods for "health concerns" yet they smoke 2 packs of cigs a day! lol! If "clean" medicine is what's important to you, growing your own is really the only way to ensure it's being grown in a manner you feel comfortable with. If "clean" food is what's important to you............well, you may want to stay away from supermarkets altogether. lol!

Welcome to RIU my friend.

I'm not trying to get on anyone about using whatever they want on their cannabis. I just find the idea of it not making a difference silly. I don't go to the supermarket, but I understand that I have a unique ability with a farm, not to go to the store. I feel like anyone growing there own also has the ability to do that in for their smoke. If you don't care then that is great, it makes life easier for you; but the idea that true, unprocessed, organic is hype is silly.

Organic labels are silly, processed organic fertilizer is silly, but growing with your own hands and knowing what exactly you put into that soil 2-3 years ago makes all the difference in the world.

Thanks for the welcome, I hope I can add whatever general plant knowledge I have to help in whatever small part I can.

cannatricks said:

I'm not trying to get on anyone about using whatever they want on their cannabis. I just find the idea of it not making a difference silly. I don't go to the supermarket, but I understand that I have a unique ability with a farm, not to go to the store. I feel like anyone growing there own also has the ability to do that in for their smoke. If you don't care then that is great, it makes life easier for you; but the idea that true, unprocessed, organic is hype is silly.

Organic labels are silly, processed organic fertilizer is silly, but growing with your own hands and knowing what exactly you put into that soil 2-3 years ago makes all the difference in the world.

Thanks for the welcome, I hope I can add whatever general plant knowledge I have to help in whatever small part I can.

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I'll be honest, I cannot tell the difference between the same bud, 1 grown organically and the other grown with chems. Some people say they can and I have no reason to doubt this, I'm just not one of them. There are NO studies showing whether organically grown cannabis is better for you than chemically grown. For the scientific minded, like myself, in the absence of studies we can only guess and go with our gut. That said, I wish I could avoid the supermarket. I wish I could grow indoors without the aid of "chemical" ferts. Unfortunately because of space and other issues, this is simply not an option for me.

Hype is everywhere in this industry. You only have to watch a Big Mike video or take a look at some of the various canna-specific and targeted products to see this. The people who feel that their cannabis is just fine in spite of using "chemical" ferts almost always butt heads with the hardcore organic crowd and vice versa. Hydro growers usually end up duking it out with dirtbaggers. It's the world we live in.

Just a question, have you used organics or processed organic labeled I believe there is not much difference between the processed organic crap and miracle grow, much like the "organic food" you can buy at the supermarket. If you've had true organic weed and then processed, there is a difference. Using processed fertilizers they are all the same, I feel like there is better flavor and scent to my buds, and I also feel like the hits are smoother and give me a "cleaner" high (I don't know what else to call it).

Who knows maybe I'm just an old hippie that ate too much acid. LOL

cannatricks said:

Just a question, have you used organics or processed organic labeled I believe there is not much difference between the processed organic crap and miracle grow, much like the "organic food" you can buy at the supermarket. If you've had true organic weed and then processed, there is a difference. Using processed fertilizers they are all the same, I feel like there is better flavor and scent to my buds, and I also feel like the hits are smoother and give me a "cleaner" high (I don't know what else to call it).

Who knows maybe I'm just an old hippie that ate too much acid. LOL

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lol! That would be 2 of us then! I went to a few too many Dead shows! lmfao!!!!!

I've tried it all my friend. When I do outdoor, they are only given completely organic amendments. I use no chemicals, bags, bottles, or boxes of any kind. Same goes for my veggie garden. I companion plant to help keep pests away and I grow more than I want because I know the deer will munch on some of it as will the bugs. A few years ago I did a guerilla grow which was completely organic and I also grew a few plants in my back yard. The yard plants got some chemical ferts but the others go no chemical ferts or processed stuff of any kind. These were from the same mother so phenotypic variation did not play a role. I still couldn't tell the difference, except the buds from the chemically ferted plants were a little bigger. Like I said, I don't doubt that people can tell a difference, I'm just not one of them. Also, please don't feel like I'm knocking organic because I'm honestly not. When I have my way, I grow my bud organically, but it just ain't happening with my indoor garden.

cannatricks said:

Lol, what do you think smoking weed is... inhaling, actually trying to inhale particulate matter... Just saying "But so and so it worse!" is kinda like saying "You can lose a finger, but don't worry about that, losing an arm is what you have to worry about."

Just because the world is full of chemicals, and particulates, and radioactive isotopes does not mean that we should give up any little way to improve our overall health. I tend to think so on medicine more then many others. Most of us patients switched to MJ for a natural alternative, we do care about the little amount of chemicals in our weed, I worry about guys like you using pesticides on my weed, and I rue the day when our medicine becomes nothing more then another big pharma business.

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There are many "safe" ways to consume cannabis for effect without inhaling any particulate matter but do not see any of you "organic" health wise people telling anyone not to smoke it but rather vape or eat it, so pretty much throws your "organic for health" argument right out the window there bud...Then you better quit eating all that chem grown pesticide sprayed food you have been eating all you life...This is utterly and totally bogus crap...Done here...too blind to see...be blissful my friend

Namaste'

ps- I grow for myself only so do not worry dude...you will never smoke my awesome weed....u r safe from that

Illumination said:

There are many "safe" ways to consume cannabis for effect without inhaling any particulate matter but do not see any of you "organic" health wise people telling anyone not to smoke it but rather vape or eat it, so pretty much throws your "organic for health" argument right out the window there bud...Then you better quit eating all that chem grown pesticide sprayed food you have been eating all you life...This is utterly and totally bogus crap...Done here...too blind to see...be blissful my friend

Namaste'

ps- I grow for myself only so do not worry dude...you will never smoke my awesome weed....u r safe from that

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You also rarely hear the "sustainability" organic folks crying about the decimation of bat colonies due to irresponsible harvesting of certain bat guanos.

doc111 said:

You also rarely hear the "sustainability" organic folks crying about the decimation of bat colonies due to irresponsible harvesting of certain bat guanos.

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That part there really messes my head up....They use every kind of feces there is, dead animal and plant parts, you know, decaying rotting matter to feed the plants and this is "cleaner" than synthetics made in a laboratory environment? Which are the same "nasty chemicals" that make it possible to produce all the food they eat? Without these "evil synthetics" there WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH FOOD FOR US!! Let us just throw out logic in favor of "it makes me fell good". Ok doc, nice seeing you for sure bro but I am unscribing here as am tired of wasting facts on ...well I will just stop there....Enjoy your little bubble worlds "organnies" before they implode

Namaste

cannatricks said:

Just a question, have you used organics or processed organic labeled I believe there is not much difference between the processed organic crap and miracle grow, much like the "organic food" you can buy at the supermarket. If you've had true organic weed and then processed, there is a difference. Using processed fertilizers they are all the same, I feel like there is better flavor and scent to my buds, and I also feel like the hits are smoother and give me a "cleaner" high (I don't know what else to call it).

Who knows maybe I'm just an old hippie that ate too much acid. LOL

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Lysergic acid diethylamide is SYNTHETIC ol Hippy... I love the stuff...I love chemicals.....apparently SO DO YOU

Namaste'