Organic (Super)Soil Runoff PPM

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GlueSniffer

Active Member
And when you mix calcium carbonate and citric acid, such as in adding lemon juice to hard water, you get calcium citrate, carbon dioxide, and water.

After a refresher in chemistry..... Its been almost 20 years since I've looked at chemistry equations.

Carbonate is CO3
Calcium Carbonate is CaCO3
Citric Acid is C6H8O7
Citrate is C6H5O7
Calcium Citrate (Tricalcium Dicitrate) is Ca3 (C6H5O7)2
H2CO3 is Carbonic Acid
H2O is Water
CO2 is Carbon Dioxide

3 CaCO3 + 2 C6H8O7 > Ca3 (C6H5O7)2 + 6H + 3 CO3

The H and CO3 will combine to form H2CO3.
3 CaCO3 + 2 C6H8O7 > Ca3 (C6H5O7)2 + 3 H2CO3

The Carbonic Acid will disassociate into water and carbon dioxide
3 H2CO3 > 3 CO2 + 3 H2O

3 CaCO3 + 2 C6H8O7 > Ca3 (C6H5O7)2 + 3 CO2 + 3 H2O

So at this point we've turned Calcium Carbonate into Calcium Citrate plus Water and Carbon Dioxide.
Calcium Citrate is a salt that is "sparingly" soluble in water (0.95 g/L at 25C), compared to Calcium Carbonate which is barely soluble (0.013 g /L at 25C). Calcium Citrate is about 73X more soluble in water than Calcium Carbonate.

A gallon of water with 120 mg / L of CaCO3 contains 0.45 grams of CaCO3. That is 0.0045 moles of CaCO3 in a gallon of water. Every 3 moles of CaCO3 needs 2 moles of Citric Acid for the balanced equation. So we need 0.0030 moles of C6H8O7 to react with the calcium carbonate. Lemon juice has 1.44 grams of citric acid per oz. Thats 0.0075 moles per oz.

0.4 oz of lemon juice per gallon of water if the water has 120 mg / L of Calcium Carbonate should make 0.75 grams of Tricalcium Dicitrate which is soulble up to 3.5 grams per gallon of water at 25C. We started with 450 mg of CaCO3 per gallon of water that is only soluble up to about 50 mg per gallon at 25C.

I didn't take 3 semesters of weed school. My degree is in physics.
 
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G

GlueSniffer

Active Member
update...

Well it’s almost chop time. Day 52 of flower, but looking pretty ripe. I’ve been checking the trichomes and they aren’t there yet. Seed package says 55-65 days.

The buds on each plant look pretty different. The one on the left fox tailed more and still has more white pistols sticking out (maybe because it’s foxtailing?) The one on the right has more tight and orange pistols (very little foxtailing). Guessing just two different phenotypes. Canopy filled out nicely. Have RH below 40%. I didn’t lollipop enough so I’ll wait to see what turns out to be quality nugs.

The last pics are taken under “daylight” (5000K CFL). I hadn’t noticed the purple til two days ago. I was wondering why the one plant had purple stems its whole life.
 

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Aussieaceae

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
GlueSniffer said:
update...

Well it’s almost chop time. Day 52 of flower, but looking pretty ripe. I’ve been checking the trichomes and they aren’t there yet. Seed package says 55-65 days.

The buds on each plant look pretty different. The one on the left fox tailed more and still has more white pistols sticking out (maybe because it’s foxtailing?) The one on the right has more tight and orange pistols (very little foxtailing). Guessing just two different phenotypes. Canopy filled out nicely. Have RH below 40%. I didn’t lollipop enough so I’ll wait to see what turns out to be quality nugs.

The last pics are taken under “daylight” (5000K CFL). I hadn’t noticed the purple til two days ago. I was wondering why the one plant had purple stems its whole life.
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They look stellar mate! Fucking awesome! :eyesmoke:
 
OneHitDone

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
MustangStudFarm said:
People who say to disregard Ph in organics are Newbs. I have a soil Ph probe and it's the first thing that I check if I have problems. When getting your soil tested, you are supposed to look at soil Ph first before diagnosing the rest. Like I said though, TGA got me into organic gardening with supersoil, but I switched to Clackamas Coots soon after. Clackamas is widely accepted in this forum as THE go-to recipe. I was drawn to it because I was getting crazy high phosphorus #'s on my test results. I knew that high P was a problem and Clackamas based his soil mix around a low P mix. I haven't looked back since.
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Have you noticed any stem purpling since switching to the "lower phosphorous" mix?
 
G

GlueSniffer

Active Member
Final pic before 36 hours of darkness and harvest. Then a bit of sift hash I collected during harvest. First attempt at using a sift screen. Just harvested over parchment paper, collected the material left behind after hanging the flowers, and then ran it through a 110 mesh count screen. Cut at day 69 after flipping the lights. Hang drying individual branches in my tent. 65-68 deg. F, 57-60% RH.

Had to borrow the humidifier from the veg closet but I think those ladies are far enough along where they can do without. They are almost a month from seed but started out pretty slow.

Starting looking at VPD charts. My leaf temps (Compared to air temp) are about -4 or -5 degree F when the lights are on and about -2 degree F when the lights are off.

Lights on: 75 deg F / 50% RH.

Lights off: temps are around 70 degrees F, so I think I’m good if RH is anywhere from 50-60% when the lights go out.
 

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Master Roots

New Member
GlueSniffer said:
Does Runoff PPM mean anything when growing in supersoil?

I just transplanted today from base mix to 5 gallon fabric pots with supersoil mix. They were about 1 month old and seemed to be growing slow. Base mix was 1 part FFOF, 1 part FFHF, 1 part seed starter mix, 2/3 part perlite, 1/3 part hydroton. Supersoil ammendments were from an older Subcool recipe. Made the supersoil about 8 weeks ago. Plants had been given pH'd water from my fish tank and a few feedings of worm casting tea. When I transplanted today, I watered thoroughly to let the soil settle. I watered with bigbloom at 20ml/gal (thats what I fed my peppers and used the leftover for the transplants). The feeding/watering was around 450ppm and 6.5pH. I gave more water than I wanted to and got significant runoff. Checked the runoff and got 7.1 pH and 6,200 ppm!!! I usually will use tap water with absorbic acid at 25mg / gallon for the chlorine and lemon juice to lower pH.

Please Help. I've never heard anybody talk about runoff with ppm that high. I realize my EC meter is cheap, but it reads my tap water at about 170ppm and RO water at around 5 ppm, so it seems somewhat calibrated. What does runoff ppm mean in supersoil? What should I do?

BTW... These are feminized GirlSC from GC. One of the ladies looks nice, but really short and has huge fan leaves. They seem kinda droopy all the time. I don't think I've been overwatering but it is possible. They said it was short plant that slightly leaned towards the indica side even though being 60% sativa. The one set of leaves is about as big as the whole plant is tall. Had 7+ nodes and was under 6" tall. I topped to the 6th node and it is bushing out, but still seems to be growing slowly. The other plant seems to be shaping up slightly differently but doesn't seem to be doing so well. Also topped this girl to the 6th node. Seems to be some type of nutrient deficiency or toxicity/lockout. Leaves on the bottom are yellowing with brown (maybe purple?) spots. Upper leaves tips are showing some clawing. Plant has smaller leaves and not as much new growth. Both plants have some purple'ing of the stems. After transplanting, I put paper plates under the plants to keep the leaves from hanging into the wet soil. I also trimmed the lowest sets of leaves off each plant. Hoping the plate might also reflect some of the light back to the inner part of the plant.

Just transplanted today, so any issues up to now could not be from the supersoil (but could be from the base mix).
Temps have been 72-82F and RH 50-60%

Better of the two.
View attachment 4615565 View attachment 4615562 View attachment 4615564 View attachment 4615563

Sicker of the two.
View attachment 4615569 View attachment 4615570 View attachment 4615568 View attachment 4615567 View attachment 4615566
Thanks in Advance!
-Sniffer
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Did U even solve your ppm issue...
 
G

GlueSniffer

Active Member
Well I sampled the soil and sent it away for testing. It was way high in Na. Also high in Mg, and low in Ca.

I paid a consultant who specializes in potting mixes to look it over.

He said, leach the soil well. Runoff 6-12” of water to lower the Na, then add 7 cups of gypsum per cubic foot. Plus some more bone meal, CalPhos, potassium sulfate, and small amounts of boron and other trace sulfates.

Sending out another sample tomorrow to see how it looks.

Master Roots said:
Did U even solve your ppm issue...
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M

Master Roots

New Member
GlueSniffer said:
Well I sampled the soil and sent it away for testing. It was way high in Na. Also high in Mg, and low in Ca.

I paid a consultant who specializes in potting mixes to look it over.

He said, leach the soil well. Runoff 6-12” of water to lower the Na, then add 7 cups of gypsum per cubic foot. Plus some more bone meal, CalPhos, potassium sulfate, and small amounts of boron and other trace sulfates.

Sending out another sample tomorrow to see how it looks.
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Wow thats a whole lot for grow cannabis...I'm self taught and only use organic fertilizers...this is the second time I've run into this problem...I make a top dressing mix of 2 and a half tbsp of feathermeal...a half a tsp of langbeinite.and one tbsp of bat guano bloom and when I flushed my ppms from run off was at 4600...I could tell the plant was going through lockout so I flushed it until I got down to 1800. For me that the safe zone for the plant to do well...when U said yours was at 6200 ppms I didn't feel that bad. I incorporate a routine flush in my schedule just so I can keep an eye on the ppms...hope U do the same it a make life a lot easier...lol
 
G

GlueSniffer

Active Member
I’m trying to teach myself. I love to learn and fascinated by science. Currently on third grow.

I’ve been watching a lot of Future Cannabis Project on YouTube. Coot is a regular on there and always talking about his mix to professionals. There’s so much great info. Plus been watching John Kempf’s agricultural webinars, which are amazing. Learning a lot of plant physiology, organic chemistry, microbiology,... Learning the best ways to apply trace minerals, about oxidation states of nutrients and which ones plant use, about fertilizer application rates in agricultural and how it translates to 7 gallon “soilless” mixes, .... so much info. This pandemic has my work hours reduced since March. I’ve had lots of extra time to find and watch hundreds of hours of fantastic material available for free on YouTube.

Master Roots said:
Wow thats a whole lot for grow cannabis...I'm self taught and only use organic fertilizers...this is the second time I've run into this problem...I make a top dressing mix of 2 and a half tbsp of feathermeal...a half a tsp of langbeinite.and one tbsp of bat guano bloom and when I flushed my ppms from run off was at 4600...I could tell the plant was going through lockout so I flushed it until I got down to 1800. For me that the safe zone for the plant to do well...when U said yours was at 6200 ppms I didn't feel that bad. I incorporate a routine flush in my schedule just so I can keep an eye on the ppms...hope U do the same it a make life a lot easier...lol
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