Organic No Till Recycled Soil Recipe Research Post

NightSpider

Active Member
If you do no till and your stuff breaks down use worms for aeration. You can also progressively overturn a % of your soil with fresh amendments every few months without dramatically upsetting the microbes
What I had in mind was a complete natural system with worms microbes nematodes critters etc, I am not informed enough to explain with proper terminology. As far as I know, what I would do to care for the plants would be: foliar tea application, tea application to the soil, mulching and cover cropping to keep the surface dark and moist so that the mulch and the top dressings will decompose better. I would let cover crops grow starting at early to mid flowering so that they would eat up the excess nitrogen. I would remove them at the beginning of veg the next cycle and lay them on the surface as green material for the worms to eat and return to the soil. I am very much a newbie to this thing so please correct me.

Now, I am sorry for asking things many times but by overturn do you mean removing some soil from the top and adding stuff? Couldn't I do that by adding stuff (compost veemicompost and whatever) to the surface and the worms will bring the things down?
 

halfbreed421

Well-Known Member
I have aeration as 1/3 of my base mix. Half of my aeration is pumice. 5% of my aeration is biochar which is supposed to have benefits in developing your mycelial network. The remainder is rice hulls which are good for aeration, moisture retention and when they breakdown(long term) they add silica to the soil.
I went with pumice after reading a number of times that perlite can "clog your soil". I don't honestly know if theres any truth to that and there are quite a few people on here who have been doing no-till with perlite for years and are reporting they've had no issues.

My 2 cents, find a source for each. You may well discover sourcing pumice is problematic and want to go with perlite. If both are similarly easy to source, go with whichevers cheaper (perlite is typically less expensive). If cost isn't an issue or prices are similar, go with pumice and you don't have to worry about whether or not perlite can cause long term issues with no-till.
Perlite does the opposite of clog your soil, it stays the same shape while your soil expands when wet and contracts when dry which is why its added for increase drainage and aeration.
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Overturn manually and add in new eration is what i meant. There's no one way to do this.
In no-till, in an ideal world there should be no reason to ever do this - worms or no worms to turn things over. (Disclosure: I have worms.)

And addition for aeration is necessary during the early stages of soil building when your soil is still shit. That's one reason we use peat or coir to get us through those early stages. A largely mineral based field soil in a pot wouldn't work well, having poorer drainage characteristics and CEC. Both coir and peat will break down though given time and with great biological activity in your soil. Peat or coir is not the same as stable organic carbon which lasts much longer (20+ years or something like that). Even the worst field soil is improved by increasing bacterial activity that glues together both mineral and small stable carbon particles into various sized aggregates that influence both CEC and drainage characteristics. Farmers call it "tilth".

If you treat your soil properly and build it, any addition you use for drainage such as perlite is a temporary solution to being able to grow in shitty soil before you can build it. It takes a long time to build good soil though, and I'm not talking just a few grow cycles.

Since the industrial revolution, agriculture has been working hard to reduce tilth and stable carbon content. Decades ago industrial agriculture ran into a lot of problems with this approach. The carbon content in the soil dropped to a small fraction of what was in the original soil, tilth and drainage suffered, CEC dropped to very low levels, and pollution of groundwater and lakes and streams as a result was considered a necessary sacrifice, even if it meant fish kills. Things have changed for the better as our knowledge grew.
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Could you also give me some info and opinions with the vermiculite/perlite/pumice/rice hulls etc part of the document?
Rice hulls have a high carbon:nitrogen ratio which is the only thing that keeps them from breaking down quickly - mainly the availability of nitrogen for the bacteria that eat them. Therefore rice hulls as a mix in your soil if used too much will tie up your nitrogen for a long time as bacteria steal anything available to break down that rich carbon. It's why in developing countries that grow rice, they just dump the hulls on the side of the roads in big piles as garbage. I've seen it.

However carbonized rice hulls are growingly seen as a way to not only increase soil fertility, but also as a way for these countries to sequester carbon in the fight against global warming. In Indonesia and Philippines, I had the pleasure of seeing how it was made DIY-style, and it's catching on there. It's probably not something you should try to do with rice hulls in your suburban backyard though. Lol
 

NightSpider

Active Member
Rice hulls have a high carbon:nitrogen ratio which is the only thing that keeps them from breaking down quickly - mainly the availability of nitrogen for the bacteria that eat them. Therefore rice hulls as a mix in your soil if used too much will tie up your nitrogen for a long time as bacteria steal anything available to break down that rich carbon. It's why in developing countries that grow rice, they just dump the hulls on the side of the roads in big piles as garbage. I've seen it.

However carbonized rice hulls are growingly seen as a way to not only increase soil fertility, but also as a way for these countries to sequester carbon in the fight against global warming. In Indonesia and Philippines, I had the pleasure of seeing how it was made DIY-style, and it's catching on there. It's probably not something you should try to do with rice hulls in your suburban backyard though. Lol

Northwood, you know the situation of my growing as I mentioned before and because of complications, for the next 6 months I will not be able to do a single pot in the tent. I remember seeing your old big blue plastic pots. I plan on covering the scrog canopy with 4 plants in the 4x4 tent. Let us say that I do the 4 big individual pots like your previous setup. Your whole grow thing is basically setting the ideal conditions and let the whole thing regulate itself: soil, critters and plants working together with minimal intervention. I imagine that is much more possible with the one pot. Can I do no till in such 4 big containers seperately or will it not work as good as your current system? If so, what should I change in my approach now that it seems like I will have to go with 4 pots?
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Northwood, you know the situation of my growing as I mentioned before and because of complications, for the next 6 months I will not be able to do a single pot in the tent. I remember seeing your old big blue plastic pots. I plan on covering the scrog canopy with 4 plants in the 4x4 tent. Let us say that I do the 4 big individual pots like your previous setup. Your whole grow thing is basically setting the ideal conditions and let the whole thing regulate itself: soil, critters and plants working together with minimal intervention. I imagine that is much more possible with the one pot. Can I do no till in such 4 big containers seperately or will it not work as good as your current system? If so, what should I change in my approach now that it seems like I will have to go with 4 pots?
Yeah you can get it to work, but it's a little bit trickier. I'd mulch/topdress with higher nitrogen containing material as well though, like alfalfa pellets from the animal feed store. It won't work quite as well or be as fool proof as my current system IMO, which is why I switched to a single giant pot. But we all gotta start somewhere, and if you can get 4 totes to work it will be a breeze once you get a single larger pot.
 

NightSpider

Active Member
Yeah you can get it to work, but it's a little bit trickier. I'd mulch/topdress with higher nitrogen containing material as well though, like alfalfa pellets from the animal feed store. It won't work quite as well or be as fool proof as my current system IMO, which is why I switched to a single giant pot. But we all gotta start somewhere, and if you can get 4 totes to work it will be a breeze once you get a single larger pot.
Are the chances of me running into pest problems or leaf problems etc. higher in 4 pots? I am not a veteran grower and this will be my first organic attempt, I want to go as organic as I can without running into high chances of problems. I cannot afford to get a stunted or destroyed by pest crop.

What do you think? Will I most probably pull it off or is it risky?
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Are the chances of me running into pest problems or leaf problems etc. higher in 4 pots? I am not a veteran grower and this will be my first organic attempt, I want to go as organic as I can without running into high chances of problems. I cannot afford to get a stunted or destroyed by pest crop.

What do you think? Will I most probably pull it off or is it risky?
Multiple smaller growing containers shouldn't attract pests any more growing in a single large container. Pests become a problem when they're introduced, and when the population of predators is too small or non-existent to take care of it if they do show up. Prevent infestations of terrible things like spider mites by practicing proper cleanliness, that includes your own body, hair, and clothes as well as your tent, and the room your tent is situated in. If get clones from outside your own grow, always quarantine them for at least a week far from the room containing your tent, and scope it daily searching the undersides of leaves and where new growth is coming from nodes. All these precautions should be undertaken regardless if you're growing pure hydro or no-till organic.

Also avoid visiting and handling your plants 10X a day. You introduce a very small but accumulative risk every time you unzipper it. Keep pets out of the room your tent is in. The number of different people who interact with your plants increases the risk.

The risk of infestations of things like gnat flies will be the highest during your first cycle, and that risk continually lowers as the cycles go by and you develop a balanced relationship between predators and prey. In my last few cycles I haven't seen even a single gnat flying around. Unfortunately a lot of folks try this out and quit after the first and most difficult cycle to get through. I suggest not using the most expensive and prized seeds for your first cycle, and hang some yellow stickies for monitoring things.

Ensure your initial soil mix alone will get you through your first cycle - do not depend on cycling of organic material for it. For those small pots I had before, it was hen manure and EWC that helped get me though the first cycle in my mix, and top applications before flower mostly to get me through the second cycle. You could also apply applications of Gaia Green or some other reasonably faster source of organic-based nutrients instead of you can't buy organic hen manure where you are. That means still add organic material to feed the bacteria and start the cycling process in cycle one, because this will be feeding cycle two and even part of cycle three at some point. That part has to be continous, and always apply more mulch material if it gets thin at any point in your grow.

Don't complicate it or overthink it. To me, it's the easiest way to grow anything on earth. Nature does it continually without any help from us.
 

NightSpider

Active Member
Multiple smaller growing containers shouldn't attract pests any more growing in a single large container. Pests become a problem when they're introduced, and when the population of predators is too small or non-existent to take care of it if they do show up. Prevent infestations of terrible things like spider mites by practicing proper cleanliness, that includes your own body, hair, and clothes as well as your tent, and the room your tent is situated in. If get clones from outside your own grow, always quarantine them for at least a week far from the room containing your tent, and scope it daily searching the undersides of leaves and where new growth is coming from nodes. All these precautions should be undertaken regardless if you're growing pure hydro or no-till organic.

Also avoid visiting and handling your plants 10X a day. You introduce a very small but accumulative risk every time you unzipper it. Keep pets out of the room your tent is in. The number of different people who interact with your plants increases the risk.

The risk of infestations of things like gnat flies will be the highest during your first cycle, and that risk continually lowers as the cycles go by and you develop a balanced relationship between predators and prey. In my last few cycles I haven't seen even a single gnat flying around. Unfortunately a lot of folks try this out and quit after the first and most difficult cycle to get through. I suggest not using the most expensive and prized seeds for your first cycle, and hang some yellow stickies for monitoring things.

Ensure your initial soil mix alone will get you through your first cycle - do not depend on cycling of organic material for it. For those small pots I had before, it was hen manure and EWC that helped get me though the first cycle in my mix, and top applications before flower mostly to get me through the second cycle. You could also apply applications of Gaia Green or some other reasonably faster source of organic-based nutrients instead of you can't buy organic hen manure where you are. That means still add organic material to feed the bacteria and start the cycling process in cycle one, because this will be feeding cycle two and even part of cycle three at some point. That part has to be continous, and always apply more mulch material if it gets thin at any point in your grow.

Don't complicate it or overthink it. To me, it's the easiest way to grow anything on earth. Nature does it continually without any help from us.

Hey man, I am moving into action. I make posts but among the replies, you have been most helpful and gracious to spend time to answer and your ideas are what makes sense to me the most.

Today I am starting to take action. I will acquire peat moss, vermicompost and compost.

Now, it seems that peat moss has black and yellow varieties with different grades and nutrient density etc. Any need to differentiate and select one over the other, and if so do you have any advice?

In the same way, when buying compost what should I look for? I will ask what was composted into it, how hot is it etc. What am I looking for and what am I avoiding?

It would seem the companies which produce vermicompost and sell worms in my country mostly work with Eisenia fetida which they call red californian worm here. Is vermicompost from that ideal? Are those worms ideal and enough if I buy and put them in my pots?

I am thinking the base as
%20 vermicompost
%20 compost
%30 peat
%15 pumice
%15 rice hulls

with some amendments to be bought after I acquire these.

(I remember you saying you included %5 alfalfa pellets, should I add?)
(You also said you added the alfalfa compost and vermicompost to your Pro-mix Organic Herb & Vegetable to make your medium. Can't I just mix the vermicompost, compost, peat and aeration and use that? Is it necessary to mix those ingredients with a soil mix?)

You also said "Ensure your initial soil mix alone will get you through your first cycle - do not depend on cycling of organic material for it. For those small pots I had before, it was hen manure and EWC that helped get me though the first cycle in my mix, and top applications before flower mostly to get me through the second cycle. You could also apply applications of Gaia Green or some other reasonably faster source of organic-based nutrients instead of you can't buy organic hen manure where you are. That means still add organic material to feed the bacteria and start the cycling process in cycle one, because this will be feeding cycle two and even part of cycle three at some point. That part has to be continous, and always apply more mulch material if it gets thin at any point in your grow."

For the last time, like if I had not asked this before, could you simply tell me either "ye these percentages are ideal" or "idk man I'd put less of xxx and more of yyy, and add zzz". I would like to prepare this soil in a way that I can transplant the seeds I have put in paper towels yesterday into it once they are in early vegetation, so in a few weeks.
in this post, you say you don't really cook your medium so is it safe to say the mix I make will be ready to transplant into in 20 days as long as I follow your way and guidelines of growing?


These are the seeds. 2 of each will go into the 4 pots.


I read a post of yours here
where you say wider pots are more important than height. I will be buying ingredients soon and will have to buy the pots soon too. So, what would be the ideal dimensions for these 4 pots? Should I try to find fabric or plastic bins like you did?

Like you said, aeration is needed until your soil settles properly and the system works. Therefore, it seems rational to me to keep the pumice as low as possible since rice hulls seem more decomposable in soil. Yet, you said too many rice hulls might cause bacteria to use up nitrogen to nreak the carbon down. Right now I am still learning but need to make a soil now so if you could like I said just tell me : "I advise you to do these base ingreadients at these percentages."

I am still researching stuff but rn I need to decide and all I ask is for you to just tell me "I'd do it this way instead" and once you add your final recommendations give me the "ok this looks ideal, most probably this is ok" green light so I can execute.

Much appreciated
 

NightSpider

Active Member
Also, it seems two kinds of products are available. Just peat moss and peat moss substrates. These peat substrates are all different, amended with things like:
  • NPK Fertilizer
  • Coco fibre
  • Osmocote
  • Clay granules
  • Limestone
  • Wetting agent
  • other improvers
When you guys say %30 peat etc. do you mean just peat moss or amended substrate?
 

NightSpider

Active Member
Peat options:

1)
it is not just peat, it says peat substrate.
(Decomposition) H2 - H4
pH (CaCL2) approximate 5.8 - 6.2
pH (H2O) approximate 6.4 - 6.9
Porosity (by weight) % 90 - 95
Weight by volume (dry) 70 GR / L
Organic Matter (dry) & 96-99
Moisture % 35
Air conductivity % 16 - 55
Electric Conductivity 270 - 330 uS/CM
Fertiliser Rate (NPK + TE) 15+10+20 1,2 kg/m³
The explanation says it has some added stuff such as dolomite lime, npk, trace elements. It says it doesnt contain wood, rocks, foreign seeds, fungi, nematodes etc.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


2)

They say this is high quality mix of white processed peat, white block peat and black peat.
Ürün Özellikleri
Kimyasal ÖzelliklerDeğerler
pH5.5 - 6,0
saltiness/brackishness? ( Kcl) ( g/l) ˂ 0,4
Soluble nutrients Mg/Ltr
Nitrogen ( NH4-N+NO3N) ˂ 50
Phosphorus ( P2O5)˂ 30
Potassium (K2O)˂ 40
Organic Mateer>97%
Heavy Metals
Arsenic ( As)˂ 40
Kurşun ( Pb) ˂ 150
Kadmiyum ( Cd) ˂ 1,5
Krom ( Cr) ˂ 300
Nikel ( Ni) ˂ 80
Civa ( Hg) ˂ 1
Talyum ( Tl) ˂ 1
Physical PropertiesDeğerler
Size0-40mm
Moisture Capacity (% by weight)45-60
Organic mass Density50-80
Total porousness volume ?1)95-97
Water Capacity42-83
Air Capacity14-55
Shrinking value?20-30




XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

3)


details here:
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Today I am starting to take action. I will acquire peat moss, vermicompost and compost.
First, I don't think there's such thing as an "ideal" soil mix you can buy in a bag. The Coots base mix is pretty normal: 1/3rd aeration, 1/3 compost or EMC, 1/3 peat moss. We only have conventional Canadian peat moss here in Canada, so I'm afraid I don't know how other types compare. Just remember, your initial soil mix is just a starting point to be continually improved upon. It's like an oil painter at the stage of sketching a rough outline on a blank canvas of what their painting should look like in the end. Then gradually after applying layer after layer of paint, adjusting and fixing things, it becomes a fine work of art. No-till soil is like that too. So just worry about something "reasonable" and don't add any amendments to the soil that will throw off your nutrient balance from the start, and you'll be fine. That means keeping it as simple as you can while checking off all the boxes.

I cheated with my initial mix I started my no-till in. Instead of straight peat moss I bought this because it's precharged with a balanced blend of organic slow-release nutrients that will supposedly last your plants for 3 months: Promix Organic Herb and Vegetable.

Then I added about 20% of the original volume in course perlite for aeration (I estimate there was already 10% perlite or more in it). I added quite a bit of fresh homemade worm castings, but probably closer to 15% to 20%. I didn't have enough EWC to equal 30% of 150 gallons of soil. So be it.

For amendments, I used this product which is certified hen manure with lots of calcium: Acti-sol Organic Hen Manure. I only used one box (1.36 kg) for my initial mix because I was a bit worried how hot it would be. But it was fine and added 2 more boxes gradually as part of a top dress during my first cycle and the plants loved it. (None added since then though.) I also added lots of alfalfa pellets to my initial mix, likely making up to 5% of the soil volume. You need to be careful with adding too much though, because once the bacteria get going they eat it quickly and it really can literally cook your soil. You don't want only thermophile bacteria while all other life dies, so I avoid this at all costs.

For mineral components, I stole some sandbox sand from my neighbor who bought too much of it for their kid's swing set area. I used perhaps a cubic foot of it. I also used nearly that amount of azomite too, and about 1/2 kilogram of calcium montmorillonite clay. I mixed all these 3 components together before mixing with the soil. Once the clay gets wet from the soil, it's next to impossible to mix in by its own.

And that's it. And no this isn't some official recipe, just what I thought would work at the time I guess. Like I said, the starting mix is just... well... your start. Your job it to keep everything happy and thriving so that it gets better cycle after cycle.
 

NightSpider

Active Member
First, I don't think there's such thing as an "ideal" soil mix you can buy in a bag. The Coots base mix is pretty normal: 1/3rd aeration, 1/3 compost or EMC, 1/3 peat moss. We only have conventional Canadian peat moss here in Canada, so I'm afraid I don't know how other types compare. Just remember, your initial soil mix is just a starting point to be continually improved upon. It's like an oil painter at the stage of sketching a rough outline on a blank canvas of what their painting should look like in the end. Then gradually after applying layer after layer of paint, adjusting and fixing things, it becomes a fine work of art. No-till soil is like that too. So just worry about something "reasonable" and don't add any amendments to the soil that will throw off your nutrient balance from the start, and you'll be fine. That means keeping it as simple as you can while checking off all the boxes.

I cheated with my initial mix I started my no-till in. Instead of straight peat moss I bought this because it's precharged with a balanced blend of organic slow-release nutrients that will supposedly last your plants for 3 months: Promix Organic Herb and Vegetable.

Then I added about 20% of the original volume in course perlite for aeration (I estimate there was already 10% perlite or more in it). I added quite a bit of fresh homemade worm castings, but probably closer to 15% to 20%. I didn't have enough EWC to equal 30% of 150 gallons of soil. So be it.

For amendments, I used this product which is certified hen manure with lots of calcium: Acti-sol Organic Hen Manure. I only used one box (1.36 kg) for my initial mix because I was a bit worried how hot it would be. But it was fine and added 2 more boxes gradually as part of a top dress during my first cycle and the plants loved it. (None added since then though.) I also added lots of alfalfa pellets to my initial mix, likely making up to 5% of the soil volume. You need to be careful with adding too much though, because once the bacteria get going they eat it quickly and it really can literally cook your soil. You don't want only thermophile bacteria while all other life dies, so I avoid this at all costs.

For mineral components, I stole some sandbox sand from my neighbor who bought too much of it for their kid's swing set area. I used perhaps a cubic foot of it. I also used nearly that amount of azomite too, and about 1/2 kilogram of calcium montmorillonite clay. I mixed all these 3 components together before mixing with the soil. Once the clay gets wet from the soil, it's next to impossible to mix in by its own.

And that's it. And no this isn't some official recipe, just what I thought would work at the time I guess. Like I said, the starting mix is just... well... your start. Your job it to keep everything happy and thriving so that it gets better cycle after cycle.
So if I make it
%30 aeration
%30 peat moss
%40 worm castings and compost (I can find quality worm castings but I cannot be sure if the compsot I will get will be good, can I just use worm castings without mixing in compost?)


when you say EWC, do you mean just worm castings or is it a special kind of worm casting capsules which release nutrient faster and earlier, making sure it doesnt have to cook for long and can be planted into directly?

I will on top of this %100 add a %5 of alfalfa pellets.

I am not sure if I can be sure if I am getting quality chicken manure, are there any substitues I can use that will serve the same purpose?

Also, instead of azomite and sand, what store buyable material or amendment can I use?
 

NightSpider

Active Member
First, I don't think there's such thing as an "ideal" soil mix you can buy in a bag. The Coots base mix is pretty normal: 1/3rd aeration, 1/3 compost or EMC, 1/3 peat moss. We only have conventional Canadian peat moss here in Canada, so I'm afraid I don't know how other types compare. Just remember, your initial soil mix is just a starting point to be continually improved upon. It's like an oil painter at the stage of sketching a rough outline on a blank canvas of what their painting should look like in the end. Then gradually after applying layer after layer of paint, adjusting and fixing things, it becomes a fine work of art. No-till soil is like that too. So just worry about something "reasonable" and don't add any amendments to the soil that will throw off your nutrient balance from the start, and you'll be fine. That means keeping it as simple as you can while checking off all the boxes.

I cheated with my initial mix I started my no-till in. Instead of straight peat moss I bought this because it's precharged with a balanced blend of organic slow-release nutrients that will supposedly last your plants for 3 months: Promix Organic Herb and Vegetable.

Then I added about 20% of the original volume in course perlite for aeration (I estimate there was already 10% perlite or more in it). I added quite a bit of fresh homemade worm castings, but probably closer to 15% to 20%. I didn't have enough EWC to equal 30% of 150 gallons of soil. So be it.

For amendments, I used this product which is certified hen manure with lots of calcium: Acti-sol Organic Hen Manure. I only used one box (1.36 kg) for my initial mix because I was a bit worried how hot it would be. But it was fine and added 2 more boxes gradually as part of a top dress during my first cycle and the plants loved it. (None added since then though.) I also added lots of alfalfa pellets to my initial mix, likely making up to 5% of the soil volume. You need to be careful with adding too much though, because once the bacteria get going they eat it quickly and it really can literally cook your soil. You don't want only thermophile bacteria while all other life dies, so I avoid this at all costs.

For mineral components, I stole some sandbox sand from my neighbor who bought too much of it for their kid's swing set area. I used perhaps a cubic foot of it. I also used nearly that amount of azomite too, and about 1/2 kilogram of calcium montmorillonite clay. I mixed all these 3 components together before mixing with the soil. Once the clay gets wet from the soil, it's next to impossible to mix in by its own.

And that's it. And no this isn't some official recipe, just what I thought would work at the time I guess. Like I said, the starting mix is just... well... your start. Your job it to keep everything happy and thriving so that it gets better cycle after cycle.
Also, I mean to do 4 seperate wide square pots for each plant, square to make the surface area as large as I can. Each pot would have approximately 55x55cm widht and length, but what height is optimal you think?
 
Top