Organic growing, whats the target EC and PPM for your runoff?

MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
So ive read ideally that your runoff when watering should stay around 1000-3000 PPM when growing organically to have sufficient nutrients for your plants. Im sure this depends on a lot of factors such as excess salt buildups, what your plant actually needs, etc. In my small room the runoff right now is like 300PPM 0.3EC. Do you think that's too low or is it hard to say because only the available nutrients show up and the ones that havent been broken down my the microbes don't show up. My soil test showed a high level of P and K and virtually no N left in the soil. Thought since their was so much P and K showing up in the tests that the PPM or EC would be higher. Tips?
 
KLITE

KLITE

Well-Known Member
My advice is forget about your measuring equipment almost completely. Fuck i only ph my water if ph below 6 or over 8, and i swear it doesnt matter if ph is within range, have tried different rooms recently. One with varied ph another one always at 6.4, no dif in anything. If youre mixing a decent soil and RECYCLING i really dont think it matters.
I just go by eye and smell and supplement with teas or top dressing. Ive recently started adding neem meal to water as its a very effective way to replenish N in the soil. I also topdress with a couple of inches of worm castings at beggining of flowering. My ec meters are kind of forgotten somewhere. Organics is really fucking easy half a dozen ammendments some molasses and just keep it simple.
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
There is no need to worry about runoff numbers or pH'ing your water. The soil food web will take care of this for you.

What kind of soil test are you talking about? Like a lab test, or one of those little DIY home kits?


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KLITE

KLITE

Well-Known Member
I think i should really stress how important HIGH quality worm hummus is as well as the use of kelp. In fact im starting to notice the only animal based product, well worms are vermins?, cannabis seems to like ''digesting'' is fish bone meal in soil. I only use guano for teas really, ayone has a good non animal based product that might be good for brewing with similar kick?
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
foreverflyhi said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't ppm or ec readings off in true organics?

In other words, even if ppm or ec reading where relevant to organics, they wouldn't be accurate like salt based chemical readings...
Might be wrong. Will check up on this as soon as I get home.
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You are correct. The organic ingredients slowly release the actual plant nutrients. The inaccuracy is also not consistent. One could for example add an overload of organic nutrients and not be able to measure as well as notice the negative effects weeks later.
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
foreverflyhi said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't ppm or ec readings off in true organics?

In other words, even if ppm or ec reading where relevant to organics, they wouldn't be accurate like salt based chemical readings...
Might be wrong. Will check up on this as soon as I get home.
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Yep. An EC meter would only pick up what's been mineralized already, or if you are using anything soluble.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
Yep. An EC meter would only pick up what's been mineralized already, or if you are using anything soluble.
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Exactly. EC/PPM meters are in fact TDS meters, the electrical Conductivity is used to "guesstimate" the TDS and in organics that value will both be off and rather meaningless.

Wiki puts it nicely:
Total dissolved solids (TDS) is a measure of the combined content of all inorganic and organic substances contained in a liquid in molecular, ionized or micro-granular (colloidal sol) suspended form.

I will add that even if your using mineral nutes an EC and pH meter isn't really necessary either. A major advantage of soil (opposed to for example hydroponic) is that the pH and nutrient concentration and even ratio differ throughout the pot. Unless you heavily over or underfeed (with one or more elements), the plant has no problem regulating the pH itself.
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
Exactly. EC/PPM meters are in fact TDS meters, the electrical Conductivity is used to "guesstimate" the TDS and in organics that value will both be off and rather meaningless.

Wiki puts it nicely:
Total dissolved solids (TDS) is a measure of the combined content of all inorganic and organic substances contained in a liquid in molecular, ionized or micro-granular (colloidal sol) suspended form.

I will add that even if your using mineral nutes an EC and pH meter isn't really necessary either. A major advantage of soil (opposed to for example hydroponic) is that the pH and nutrient concentration and even ratio differ throughout the pot. Unless you heavily over or underfeed (with one or more elements), the plant has no problem regulating the pH itself.
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Sure if your plants do awesome and your hitting at least 2 pounds per light then yeah I wouldnt worry to much about testing either. But I feel that by testing for N,P,K, micronutrients and PH and checking my runoff for TDS constantly throughout the grow I can really find out what I can change to make everything as dialed as possible for the plants entire lifecycle, guesswork just doesn't cut it and is for lazy people. Im in this to try and grow the best possible medicine I can, and through rigorous testing this can be achieved faster than just guessing whats going on. Sure EC and PPM meteres wont show you the stuff that hasn't been broken down yet, but it can give you a lot of information such as if your microbes are breaking stuff down at a continuous rate, or doing it faster, or slower as time goes on so you can make adjustments to keep things running optimum. Also, will help you know when salts are getting built up in the soil from the natural processes etc. Their are all kinds of advantages to testing.
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
Sure if your plants do awesome and your hitting at least 2 pounds per light then yeah I wouldnt worry to much about testing either. But I feel that by testing for N,P,K, micronutrients and PH and checking my runoff for TDS constantly throughout the grow I can really find out what I can change to make everything as dialed as possible for the plants entire lifecycle, guesswork just doesn't cut it and is for lazy people. Im in this to try and grow the best possible medicine I can, and through rigorous testing this can be achieved faster than just guessing whats going on. Sure EC and PPM meteres wont show you the stuff that hasn't been broken down yet, but it can give you a lot of information such as if your microbes are breaking stuff down at a continuous rate, or doing it faster, or slower as time goes on so you can make adjustments to keep things running optimum. Also, will help you know when salts are getting built up in the soil from the natural processes etc. Their are all kinds of advantages to testing.
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Mammoth, let the soil do the work for you. Build a healthy foundation, and let the microbes and plants do their thing. PH'ing your water in an organic grow is the tail wagging the dog. It might temporarily change the reading your meter gets, but it will do nothing for the long term benefit of the soil. We are not adding salts to the soil so there is not going to be salt buildup like there is in synthetic growing systems.

P-
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
Mammoth, let the soil do the work for you. Build a healthy foundation, and let the microbes and plants do their thing. PH'ing your water in an organic grow is the tail wagging the dog. It might temporarily change the reading your meter gets, but it will do nothing for the long term benefit of the soil. We are not adding salts to the soil so there is not going to be salt buildup like there is in synthetic growing systems.

P-
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Pattahabi said:
Mammoth, let the soil do the work for you. Build a healthy foundation, and let the microbes and plants do their thing. PH'ing your water in an organic grow is the tail wagging the dog. It might temporarily change the reading your meter gets, but it will do nothing for the long term benefit of the soil. We are not adding salts to the soil so there is not going to be salt buildup like there is in synthetic growing systems.

P-
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The more Ive thought about this the more I agree with you guys. Im used to my soil being so rough by the end of the grow from using to many nutrients I toss it. Now that im just doing the tea, im 5 weeks into flowering and my soil is still looking and feeling great. Ill have to get some bins so I can dump all the soil into them and add some more compost, ewc, etc. to recycle it now. I guess I don't really need the meters and testers like you said, what I want now is a microscope to know how well im brewing the tea and to check the soil every once in awhile to know how my microbe populations are doing :) Im a little stubborn and jump to conclusions sometimes, hence the test test test post lol. Thank you guys!
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
The more Ive thought about this the more I agree with you guys. Im used to my soil being so rough by the end of the grow from using to many nutrients I toss it. Now that im just doing the tea, im 5 weeks into flowering and my soil is still looking and feeling great. Ill have to get some bins so I can dump all the soil into them and add some more compost, ewc, etc. to recycle it now. I guess I don't really need the meters and testers like you said, what I want now is a microscope to know how well im brewing the tea and to check the soil every once in awhile to know how my microbe populations are doing :) Im a little stubborn and jump to conclusions sometimes, hence the test test test post lol. Thank you guys!
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wow, im about to save a shitload of money now that I don't need to keep buying soil every 3 months lol
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
wow, im about to save a shitload of money now that I don't need to keep buying soil every 3 months lol
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Yessir! That's why I'm really anal about what goes into my soil. I keep it forever! I'm about to increase the amount of soil I'm using significantly. So I'm going to mix up new soil, and then add the old soil in equal parts. Easy peazy!

Btw, I broke down and bought a microscope this summer! I'm still learning, but it's pretty fun! ;)

Peace!

P-
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
Yessir! That's why I'm really anal about what goes into my soil. I keep it forever! I'm about to increase the amount of soil I'm using significantly. So I'm going to mix up new soil, and then add the old soil in equal parts. Easy peazy!

Btw, I broke down and bought a microscope this summer! I'm still learning, but it's pretty fun! ;)

Peace!

P-
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im really excited about the benefits from adding alfalfa meal to my soil! Yeah I cant wait to get a microscope and start identifying bacteria and fungi, found one for $380 that is 400x w/ a led light and 2 megapixel built in camera :)
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
im really excited about the benefits from adding alfalfa meal to my soil! Yeah I cant wait to get a microscope and start identifying bacteria and fungi, found one for $380 that is 400x w/ a led light and 2 megapixel built in camera :)
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Alfalfa is some great stuff! I rate it right up there with kelp! The things I looked for in a scope were a 20w halogen bulb, kohler illumination, a 20x objective, movable stage, and I wanted a trinocular so I can hook a camera up to it. I've heard the little digital cameras on the scopes are not very good, but I have never seen one so I really can't say for sure.

P-
 
C

CannaBare

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
Yessir! That's why I'm really anal about what goes into my soil. I keep it forever! I'm about to increase the amount of soil I'm using significantly. So I'm going to mix up new soil, and then add the old soil in equal parts. Easy peazy!

Btw, I broke down and bought a microscope this summer! I'm still learning, but it's pretty fun! ;)

Peace!

P-
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Do you add the old soil and new soil like a base and then re-amend or amend your new base and then mix with the old? Recycling soil is the only thing I am iffy on because I haven't had a chance to try it. And does aeration and drainage material have to be added in higher proportions when recycling since peat moss/leaf mold/coco coir/rice hulls all break down over time?
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
CannaBare said:
Do you add the old soil and new soil like a base and then re-amend or amend your new base and then mix with the old? Recycling soil is the only thing I am iffy on because I haven't had a chance to try it. And does aeration and drainage material have to be added in higher proportions when recycling since peat moss/leaf mold/coco coir/rice hulls all break down over time?
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Canna, what I am planning to do is something like this. I'm going to mix new soil and maybe round up a little on the kelp, crab, neem - not much. Then I'll add something like 2:1 new soil to old soil. Might even be a little closer to 1:1. We'll see how much new soil I end up with. :)

Peace!

P-
 
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