On "What makes you believe that God is real?"

undercovergrow

Well-Known Member
1. The State of Israel (even the timing is prophetic regarding how long the Jewish people wandered)
2. The recapture of Jerusalem
3. Mass animal deaths and natural disasters increasing subsequently

If creation itself is not enough for you, then nothing I say ever will be. it's odd that someone who professes to love science cannot see the wonderful nature of the Creator.

You do not understand sin and it's consequences because you do not understand Who the offense is against.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
1. The State of Israel (even the timing is prophetic regarding how long the Jewish people wandered)
2. The recapture of Jerusalem
3. Mass animal deaths and natural disasters increasing subsequently

If creation itself is not enough for you, then nothing I say ever will be. it's odd that someone who professes to love science cannot see the wonderful nature of the Creator.

You do not understand sin and it's consequences because you do not understand Who the offense is against.
Be specific, I'm looking for the passage in the Bible that foretells prophecy, then the event in the real world confirming it

Existence is not proof of a creator. In fact, there are many different scientific facts that completely contradict biblical creation (4.5 billion year old Earth, the theory of evolution, etc.)

I don't believe in the concept of sin because I don't believe in God or any organized religion. Sin is a religious concept
 

Dcrack

Member
Okay a major prophecy that has been fulfilled recently that signals the end is real and that there is a God because he knows the future and has told us already what is to happen is the alliance between Turkey, Iran (Persia), and Russia(magog). The fact that they are allies is fulfilment of Ezekiel 37-38 and Revelation 20 v 7-10. The fact that never im Human History has theese geographical regions were ever aligned until now and that Persia (or Iran today) help israel in the 7 days war in 1973 now they are against Israel. Just shows how things will change and fulfill time. Almost all scientists agree to some type of divine or supernatural thing had to play into creation of the universe. As if anything were off by a smidge we would never been here nor the universe. The probability of creation happening on its on is so astronimical it is impossible. Science believes in the big bang and that is the best way to describe what he bible says on how the heavens were created. And God Said let there be light. If you donot believe in God or Jesus Christ he still died for you so you may be called righteous. Read the gospel of John and ask for God to prove it to you before you do (truly open minded) and ill bet you will agree that you need salvation. This is not the world God created it is a fallen world that needs forgiveness to go to heaven and the only way for forgiveness is by blood and thats what Christ did when he was at Calvary.
heb.9.22-24.nlt In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
That's not what Ezekiel says. It says there will be a war between Israel and many other nations, and if you pay close attention, the writer doesn't specify a date.. People use this kind of language to do exactly what you're attempting to do, claim it's biblical prophecy. If you believe what you wrote, any war at any time against Israel could be interpreted as fulfillment of the prophecy..
That doesn't sound divinely inspired to me. It sounds like the writer knew war was inevitable, as common for the time period

Also, nearly 80%+ of all scientists in all fields of study don't believe in a personal god

Ezekiel 37-38 New International Version (NIV)

The Valley of Dry Bones

37 The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

One Nation Under One King
15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

The Lord’s Great Victory Over the Nations

38 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of[c] Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of[d] Meshek and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush[e] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you.

7 “‘Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. 8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.

10 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.[f]” 13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages[g] will say to you, “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?”’

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

17 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. 18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel 37-38
 

undercovergrow

Well-Known Member
I think I could take the time to list out the verses regarding Israel's return (a few: Zechariah 8, Isaiah 43, Isaiah 51, Micah 4), Jerusalem being a central point in world events once the Jews controlled it again, the Hosea prophecies regarding the animal deaths increasing along with natural calamities increasing, and you would refute them all since as you clearly stated earlier: you do not believe. Earth billions of years old is what man says it is, evolution is what man says it is--you seem to put a lot of faith in what other men say and not what the Word of God says. You have no proof either that the earth is billions of years old nor that evolution is in fact true. The evidence that creation itself exists is enough, you deny that it is because you so sincerely desire to deny there is a God.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I think I could take the time to list out the verses regarding Israel's return (a few: Zechariah 8, Isaiah 43, Isaiah 51, Micah 4), Jerusalem being a central point in world events once the Jews controlled it again, the Hosea prophecies regarding the animal deaths increasing along with natural calamities increasing, and you would refute them all since as you clearly stated earlier: you do not believe. Earth billions of years old is what man says it is, evolution is what man says it is--you seem to put a lot of faith in what other men say and not what the Word of God says. You have no proof either that the earth is billions of years old nor that evolution is in fact true. The evidence that creation itself exists is enough, you deny that it is because you so sincerely desire to deny there is a God.

http://ideonexus.com/2012/02/12/101-reasons-why-evolution-is-true/

We know how old the Earth is because we can scientifically verify it, we can measure it.. We know evolution happens because we can see it happen, we can test it

Accepting the age of the Earth or evolution doesn't require faith. Faith is belief without evidence. Both, determining the age of the Earth and evolution are scientifically verifiable. Why would you guess dolphins and whales, both mammals, swim vertically - that is they move their tails up and down, as opposed to fish who swim horizontally, left to right? Because their ancestors ran on land.. Why would dinosaurs have feathers and chickens have the gene to create teeth, yet have no teeth? Because birds are the descendents of dinosaurs, they even walked the same.. Why would every living thing on Earth be carbon based? Why would humans and chimpanzees share 98% identical DNA? Why would everything after amphibian share a common body structure (4 limbs, 1 head and a tail)? Why would older organisms be found lower in geological strata and younger organisms be found higher?

These things are scientifically undeniable, whether you believe in god or not
 

undercovergrow

Well-Known Member
@Padawanbater2 science has been unable to provide one piece of evidence that proves evolution. all animals have been found in the state they were created-there hasn't been a missing link found. you assume these things are this way (regarding the differences in animals) because you do not want to attribute them to a Creator and instead see them as evidence of evolution. science is unable to provide proof that the earth is that old-it is their best guess. again, you're taking the word of other men over the word of the Creator. you assume that in all periods of the earth's history, it decayed at a stable rate.
the two or three percent that is different from primates and humans is a lot of code in the DNA - just because the Creator utilized carbon based life forms as the primary form doesn't make it less spectacular.
nice debate. thanks for keeping it civil. :peace:
 

SamsonsRiddle

Well-Known Member
Be specific, I'm looking for the passage in the Bible that foretells prophecy, then the event in the real world confirming it

Existence is not proof of a creator. In fact, there are many different scientific facts that completely contradict biblical creation (4.5 billion year old Earth, the theory of evolution, etc.)

I don't believe in the concept of sin because I don't believe in God or any organized religion. Sin is a religious concept

The whole thing about the earth being so many billions years old: You have not studied the Bible very in depth if you believe it says that that is not possible. If you study Genesis 1:2, for example, you find the earth is in a state of "tohu" and "bohu". However, the world was not created that way but BECAME that way. This is because there was a part when angels were over the earth and satan rebelled, taking 1/3rd of the angels with him; satan was in charge of god's government on earth. The point is, there is no where that says how long the angels were on the earth before god had to rejuvenate it because of the destruction caused by the angelic rebellion. Man is god's second fallen species, not the first.

Evolution is impossible. If something evolved into a new species, how could the old species exist?

Creation is simple. If you find a watch in the woods you can't possibly believe it just came together and started ticking. Every piece on it had to be intricately planned out and put together just right in order for it to work and be accurate.

The prophecies of the bible have so much symbolism it takes years of study to truly understand, let alone explain to someone else who doesn't quite get the whole symbolism thing. Some simple prophecies to study would be the "cyrus" prophecy, edom's barrenness, or the Josiah bone prophecy.

It doesn't matter if you believe god is real or not, just like it doesn't matter if you believe in sin or not. If you don't believe, then there is no purpose to your life other than a selfish purpose because you are only living for yourself.
 

Grandpapy

Well-Known Member

http://ideonexus.com/2012/02/12/101-reasons-why-evolution-is-true/

We know how old the Earth is because we can scientifically verify it, we can measure it.. We know evolution happens because we can see it happen, we can test it

Accepting the age of the Earth or evolution doesn't require faith. Faith is belief without evidence. Both, determining the age of the Earth and evolution are scientifically verifiable. Why would you guess dolphins and whales, both mammals, swim vertically - that is they move their tails up and down, as opposed to fish who swim horizontally, left to right? Because their ancestors ran on land.. Why would dinosaurs have feathers and chickens have the gene to create teeth, yet have no teeth? Because birds are the descendents of dinosaurs, they even walked the same.. Why would every living thing on Earth be carbon based? Why would humans and chimpanzees share 98% identical DNA? Why would everything after amphibian share a common body structure (4 limbs, 1 head and a tail)? Why would older organisms be found lower in geological strata and younger organisms be found higher?

These things are scientifically undeniable, whether you believe in god or not

Imo, the only line in the Bible that hasn't been plagiarized is, "In the Beginning," after that, it has been up for interpretation/manipulation.

Perhaps faith is a discipline, where the answer is down the road. (time)
If thats the case, it cost you nothing. No tuition fee. Nothing to lose.

Why do we limit what we think is as fact based on our current knowledge when we know the 'current' will change.
How long will it be till we start using 17% of our brains? Lots of ram for something.
 

Dcrack

Member
That's not what Ezekiel says. It says there will be a war between Israel and many other nations, and if you pay close attention, the writer doesn't specify a date.. People use this kind of language to do exactly what you're attempting to do, claim it's biblical prophecy. If you believe what you wrote, any war at any time against Israel could be interpreted as fulfillment of the prophecy..
That doesn't sound divinely inspired to me. It sounds like the writer knew war was inevitable, as common for the time period

Also, nearly 80%+ of all scientists in all fields of study don't believe in a personal god
No it is biblical and hebrew scholars all agree magog is russia. Second it does give you a time period it says in chapter 36 says
ezk.36.22.nlt “Therefore, give the people of Israel this message from the Sovereign lord : I am bringing you back, but not because you deserve it. I am doing it to protect my holy name, on which you brought shame while you were scattered among the nations.
So it is after God brings israel back as a naion. This didnt happen untill 1948 so it is talking about right now. Also John refers to Gog and magog in revelation as to refrence exekiel. If only read chapter 38 you didnt read the whole thing. Its not a bunch of nations it literally list them
Son of man, turn and face Gog of the land of Magog(modern day russia), the prince who rules over the nations of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. Persia(iran), Ethiopia, and Libya will join you, too, with all their weapons.

So its not so vague it tells u when after israel reamerges from basically the dead
happened in 1948 in response to ww2
List countries just in the geographic names of that time. Magog Persia ethopia and libya and they will be united only time in history is this true is now. US chose iran over israel and iran plans on attacking Israel even with the deal the ayatollah was at a party chanting death to America death to israel the day before the deal.
 

justugh

Well-Known Member
interesting you would post this...i was just doing a Bible study the other day that incorporated how God is STILL in the process of speaking--that's what is holding everything together. the string theory is amazing when you start looking into it.
i thought that idea might make some ppl stop and think .....glad u liked it

If anything proved a god exists, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Belief in god, all god's, requires faith
it proves it .....what the guy that did it was saying look at the tech the man that came up with the idea if he had it he would have been able to solve the problem ........the man that did is saying look at tech and how much it helps ......but it still proved that a supreme being exist (something at the top not a random chance )

and before there was the bible there was word of mouth and stories ............if u look there is a Flood story (noah type) in every culture hell it was in the cuneiform on a clay tablet 6000 years ago before the jewish ppl

earth us is old then we thing ..........then u can mess with mayan and ancient greek creations stories ( 2 cultures never spoke but the story the idea is almost the same) ..........i am not saying it 100% or anything like that i am saying something is hidden in there it takes years of thinking to get passed the crap ....and i half think that is the point the jounery not the end ........doing this for years my thinking has change......7 yers ago i was like u wanting to disband and make it all illegal

but thinking i see that is not the answer ......it is not the right time enough ppl are not thinking for themselves to start a change
 

qwizoking

Well-Known Member
Adaptation is undeniable
Evolution is questionable at best (i prefer not to even aknowledge unless you already understand irreducible complexity and later criticism)

The bible does not specify age of the earth just like it does not say adam was the first man, genesis is a combination of 3 (maybe 4) oral and written tradition about a specific blood line.

We are still in the last day (7) the day of rest. Each day being a period in reference to the pov of someone on earth.. and you cant attempt to calculate age by adding blood lines, it doesnt list all of them. You have to study a little bit of the original languages and read a real study on the chapters to understand, not really a study bible that goes a little in depth but one that breaks down each verse and doesnt list the original text..what pastors etc study from... I think you know my scientific background and ive also thoroughly studied the bible. And continue to do so

Pada, you cant pick the weakest post to reply too, that hardly keeps the debate interesting.
 
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The_Herban_Legend

Well-Known Member
Adaptation is undeniable
Evolution is questionable at best (i prefer not to even aknowledge unless you already understand irreducible complexity and later criticism)

The bible does not specify age of the earth just like it does not say adam was the first man, genesis is a combination of 3 (maybe 4) oral and written tradition about a specific blood line.

We are still in the last day (7) the day of rest. Each day being a period in reference to the pov of someone on earth.. and you cant attempt to calculate age by adding blood lines, it doesnt list all of them. You have to study a little bit of the original languages and read a real study on the chapters to understand, not really a study bible that goes a little in depth but one that breaks down each verse and doesnt list the original text..what pastors etc study from... I think you know my scientific background and ive also thoroughly studied the bible. And continue to do so

Pada, you cant pick the weakest post to reply too, that hardly keeps the debate interesting.
Have you ever wondered why the deity in the old testament is much more blood thirsty than the deity in the new testament? I have an educated guess as to why that is. The deity is a product of mans creation in both the new and old testament. As times change and as man becomes more knowledgeable, able to differentiate an earthquake from a deity's curse for example, so does the authors writings. For example. just look at how far we as society have come just from the 1950's. Civil rights. of African Americans and homosexuals were unheard of.
Do you really think that a deity exists? If so, then tell me which one of the thousands, exists.
 

qwizoking

Well-Known Member
I dont see a difference between ot and new testament God . I do understand the purpose of Jesus and why it is not one testament..if thats what you dont get
More knowledgeable? Or more ignorant because we think we know.
Not sure how a countries view on african americans, africans or slavery of other groups or homosexuality is an example.
Unless you feel thats prophetic and we are nearing the end of times
 

The_Herban_Legend

Well-Known Member
Yon don't see a difference between the old and new testament? Wow, ok! Do you assume that society is "ignorant" because we have extended civil rights to all or are you just using religion to hide racist views?
Please tell me which of the many deity's created by man exists.
 

The_Herban_Legend

Well-Known Member
I dont see a difference between ot and new testament God . I do understand the purpose of Jesus and why it is not one testament..if thats what you dont get
More knowledgeable? Or more ignorant because we think we know.
Not sure how a countries view on african americans, africans or slavery of other groups or homosexuality is an example.
Unless you feel thats prophetic and we are nearing the end of times
By the way, we do know earthquakes are not created by a deity. If a deity created this Earth, you would assume he would know these simple things.
 

qwizoking

Well-Known Member
No, you cannot say that god could not have started a movement in plates or what have you that created an earthquake on a specific point in time.
Other than that your not making sense. I and the bible agree with equality. The greater degree of ignorance was the inability to see god at work
I would assume he would know what simple things?
If i had to pick one i would choose the christian God
 
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