Old white man -

medicineman said:

Yes I do. I want to do away with for profit medical. I mean I'd leave all the private doctors alone, they could fend for themselves or join the national health care system. Here's how I'd work that: Hospitals and doctors could bill the government for services, services studied and deemed reasonable. Private people could still pay outrageous prices for their medical, they would not be forced to join. But all HMOs would be disbanded, Private Medical insurance would be disbanded, except a few companies for the rich. The employees and employers would pay a tax predicated on how much the system would cost, and every Dr. visit, specialist visit, or hospital stay would be free, no out of pocket. Employers that pay for their employees insurance now, would save a bundle. Private people that pay for insurance and co-pays would save a bundle, and basically, medical would be free when you needed attention. There are a few bugs to work out and all you rich guys could just go ahead and pay for your services, I'm sure there would be a few Dr.s that would opt out and charge big bucks, but the rest of us would have no more worries on how we are going to pay for medical

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You don't seem to grasp, though, that what you're talking about is essentially a gigantic, government-owned and operated HMO. The thing that's maddening about using an HMO is the interference of "administrators". All these people who don't know jack shit about medicine, never see the patient face-to-face, yet making what are sometimes life and death decisions that are often in complete contradiction to what that person's doc says they need or should have (in terms of treatment).

How is making such a system a government-run system really any better? Have you spoken to any sick Canadians lately? Did you know that many times those who can afford it go across the border to get medical attention when they need it because the waits at home can be so long? Why would they do that if their socialized, government-run healthcare system were so great? I'm not saying that we're in a fantastic state of affairs, but I also think that HMOs have done a lot to bring quality of service and treatment way, way down.

Originally Posted by medicineman
Yes I do. I want to do away with for profit medical. I mean I'd leave all the private doctors alone, they could fend for themselves or join the national health care system. Here's how I'd work that: Hospitals and doctors could bill the government for services, services studied and deemed reasonable. Private people could still pay outrageous prices for their medical, they would not be forced to join. But all HMOs would be disbanded, Private Medical insurance would be disbanded, except a few companies for the rich. The employees and employers would pay a tax predicated on how much the system would cost, and every Dr. visit, specialist visit, or hospital stay would be free, no out of pocket. Employers that pay for their employees insurance now, would save a bundle. Private people that pay for insurance and co-pays would save a bundle, and basically, medical would be free when you needed attention. There are a few bugs to work out and all you rich guys could just go ahead and pay for your services, I'm sure there would be a few Dr.s that would opt out and charge big bucks, but the rest of us would have no more worries on how we are going to pay for medical

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So MedMan, what will you do when all the doctors give people like you the finger and move to Mexico or any where else where they wont be forced to let themselves get bent over and raped.

The profit motive is what provides motivation. If I was told I could be a programmer at $8.00/hr or a McDonalds worker at $8.00/hr I'd opt to the McDonalds worker, because I'm not short changing myself, and selling my knowledge and time invested for nothing.

Doctors are the same way. Why would any one want to become a doctor if they are going to be dictated to? Told how many patients they can see, and told how they can treat patients. The idea behind a doctor is that they do anything, and everything they think is necessary to diagnose and solve the problem. Not that they have some sort of idiotic budget dictated to them by some dipshit like you in D.C. that has their head so far up their ass they can only see shit, and haven't got the experience to actually judge what is, and is not, Medical Necessity.

Well, I ain't voting for you, been there, done that, and I like unspoiled milk.

Garden Knowm said:

i don't think electricity should be provided to ANYBODY... solar only (for those who can afford it)..

SUN power or darkness...

you choose...

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medicineman said:

Duhhhh, all intelligent responses. Wouldn't it be funny if you were wrong on the issues? I'll bet you listen to Limbaugh and Levin, mind fuck if ever there were.

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Total propaganda. I have had the pleasure of listening to some of the right wing dribble on long trips. Listen to the people that call in. They all sound like the stereotypical ignorant rednecks.

If you vote for a republican and are not in the top tax bracket, you are absolutely voting against your best interest. Which leaves either that you have been brainwashed into believing whatever crap of the week they are feeding (Obama wants to teach sex-ed to kindergarten, are you really that f-ing stupid?), or you vote purely for religious reasons.

Twice in 25years I have quit smoking herb for good reasons and each time I become more conservative, it kinda scares me. Because of this I really can't imagine how anyone who smokes herb could support the very people who want to incarcerate you for your "crime".

Maybe you are drug dealers, cuz they would not benefit from decriminalization/legalization. Or just brainwashed? IDK, but suggestion is a powerful thing especially when combined with sleep deprivation.

This will really get your dander up... Jimmy Carter; legalized home brewing in 1978, tried to do the same for Cannabis, Nobel Peace Prize winner, builds houses for poor people, donated a mosquito net for every person in Ethiopia to help combat malaria etc. etc. etc. Yeah, what an ass.

And what did your hero do? Ronald Reagan, "Marijuana is the most dangerous drug known to man kind"

For the record. I am not a Democrat, I have never voted for a Democrat.
I am actually a registered republican (to vote for Ron Paul in primary only). Before this year I have been registered independent most of my life, and libertarian for the last 8 years.

I didn't mind John McCain too much until he started the straight lie express. How stupid do they think Americans are...wait...oh yeah GW x 2

i don't think electricity should be provided to ANYBODY... solar only (for those who can afford it)..

SUN power or darkness...

you choose...

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Nuclear Fission, though I'd opt for Fusion if we'd get off our ass and actually invest more in it, instead of using stop gap measures like Wind (Kills Birds) or Solar (Wastes Land).

GK, to actually provide enough power via Solar you'd have to cover the land area of Rhode Island in Solar Collectors (it might be slightly less now). By the time you finished doing it though, you'd have to confront the fact that while you were installing those collectors electricity demand doubled, so now you need to cover the same amount of land, again.

I'll take Nuclear Fission over Solar any day, I enjoy actually being able to go for a drive with out having to wear those sun glasses they provide you with to view Nuclear Detonations just to avoid the glare from some flake's giant solar facility.

That, and the Nuclear Industry provides more jobs at better rates to more people than Solar does.

Seamaiden said:

Have you spoken to any sick Canadians lately? Did you know that many times those who can afford it go across the border to get medical attention when they need it because the waits at home can be so long? Why would they do that if their socialized, government-run healthcare system were so great?

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No, I have not. But I have talked to sick Americans lately. (I often talk to myself too!, that's sick)

Those that can afford it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Idea of health care reform is not for the middle class that can't see past their 3 car garage filled with SUV's and jet skis, too see that they cant afford the "American Dream". They cannot see it. They are too busy working multiple jobs to be able to afford to keep up with the Jones'. They are tired, long commutes listening to talk radio. They are too busy to raise their kids (Sarah!), so they turn them loose on the public school system, and bitch about the quality of education while little Johnny is disturbing the class being an ass, just like his parents.

Keep your stinkin HMO. Healthcare reform is for the poor!

I am pretty much against most government, but if we are going to spend billions lets do it here. Doctors are full of shit. They are "lobbied" by the Pharm companies and give you whatever is on their pens, sign-in sheets, clocks, notepads etc., regardless of the risk. they take so little time listening to you, chances are you can self diagnose with the internet better, because the doc wont take the time.

That being said, if needed, waiting in line is better than no alternative, or lifelong indebtedness.

My Great Grandfather practiced medicine in rural Nebraska in the early 20th century. He often provided services for a chicken or two. Wouldn't it be nice if Physicians dedicated their lives to helping people, rather than getting rich working 4 days a week and golfing on Tues.?

TheBrutalTruth said:

instead of using stop gap measures like Wind (Kills Birds) or Solar (Wastes Land).

GK, to actually provide enough power via Solar you'd have to cover the land area of Rhode Island in Solar Collectors (it might be slightly less now).

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17% of Arizona sand would do it. with plug in electric cars!

or

Enough wind in North Dakota to do the same.

And come on, do you really give a crap about birds?

And of course, Nuclear provides more jobs, your paying for it too!
The 2008 energy bill subsidizes nuke, oil, and gas and borrows most of the money to do that. Who do you think we are borrowing the majority of the money from? and who do you think is going to pay for the debt?
Maybe a Chinese sovereign trust fund (no, not like the one grandma gave you) and your grandkids

TheBrutalTruth said:

Nuclear Fission, though I'd opt for Fusion if we'd get off our ass and actually invest more in it, instead of using stop gap measures like Wind (Kills Birds) or Solar (Wastes Land).

GK, to actually provide enough power via Solar you'd have to cover the land area of Rhode Island in Solar Collectors (it might be slightly less now). By the time you finished doing it though, you'd have to confront the fact that while you were installing those collectors electricity demand doubled, so now you need to cover the same amount of land, again.

I'll take Nuclear Fission over Solar any day, I enjoy actually being able to go for a drive with out having to wear those sun glasses they provide you with to view Nuclear Detonations just to avoid the glare from some flake's giant solar facility.

That, and the Nuclear Industry provides more jobs at better rates to more people than Solar does.

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I don't mean to be a dick, but I'm currently enrolled at Oregon Techs Renewable Energy Engineering program, and this really isn't true, not any more at least. In the next 10 years, solar will become a better source of energy than nuclear, fossil fuels, wind, biofuel, or any other technology we currently know about. Solar is the future. There are currently 12 different solar power plants being build in the Mohabe Desert, with more scheduled for the following years. The plants are already more efficient the coal and the safety issues compared to nuclear, well they are not comparable. In another 10 years, solar will even more efficient. When solar reaches 35% capacity in the next 20-50 years, quite honestly depending on who wins the next election, we will never worry about energy again. Enough solar power hits the planet every hour to power the planet for one year. Solar is the key to this countries future and the only thing holding it back is poor legistlation and lack of scientific funding. As far as jobs, 8 of the 8 people that graduated from the previous class we're employed before they graduated. You need solar plants to to build the panels. Solar factories employ actually greater numbers of people than nuclear, because they cover much larger distances. We'll need installers to install the solar panels on roofs and whatever else. We'll need designers to design renewable energy buildings. Trust me when I say, a world run by solar will have no shortage of jobs to fill. The problem with solar, it's very hard for people to figure out a way to rip you off using solar panels, because once you buy em, you don't need an electric company.

Inneedofbuds said:

I don't mean to be a dick, but I'm currently enrolled at Oregon Techs Renewable Energy Engineering program, and this really isn't true, not any more at least. In the next 10 years, solar will become a better source of energy than nuclear, fossil fuels, wind, biofuel, or any other technology we currently know about. Solar is the future. There are currently 12 different solar power plants being build in the Mohabe Desert, with more scheduled for the following years. The plants are already more efficient the coal and the safety issues compared to nuclear, well they are not comparable. In another 10 years, solar will even more efficient. When solar reaches 35% capacity in the next 20-50 years, quite honestly depending on who wins the next election, we will never worry about energy again. Enough solar power hits the planet every hour to power the planet for one year. Solar is the key to this countries future and the only thing holding it back is poor legistlation and lack of scientific funding. As far as jobs, 8 of the 8 people that graduated from the previous class we're employed before they graduated. You need solar plants to to build the panels. Solar factories employ actually greater numbers of people than nuclear, because they cover much larger distances. We'll need installers to install the solar panels on roofs and whatever else. We'll need designers to design renewable energy buildings. Trust me when I say, a world run by solar will have no shortage of jobs to fill. The problem with solar, it's very hard for people to figure out a way to rip you off using solar panels, because once you buy em, you don't need an electric company.

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Right, I want a solar panel on my roof in Ohio, No thanks, I really don't want it pulling my roof off with it the next time something like Ike hits.

Even worse, would be if it went and killed some one, because then I'd end up being liable.

TheBrutalTruth said:

Right, I want a solar panel on my roof in Ohio, No thanks, I really don't want it pulling my roof off with it the next time something like Ike hits.

Even worse, would be if it went and killed some one, because then I'd end up being liable.

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Don't worry, you won't have to. 10 years from now solar panels will literally be painted on to your roofing tiles, windows, and whatever else has a flat surface facing the sun. No offense, but you're thinking on solar is thirty years in the past. I don't blame you, there is a large group spending a good amount of money to keep it that way.

Enough solar power hits the planet every hour to power the planet for one year.

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The planet is a really, really big place, and how much of that is reflected by clouds, how much is absorbed by atmospheric particles, distorted by atmospheric interference?

Okay, so it just flies off with my roof instead, or gets damaged by dust, or tornados. Still means that I'm stuck waiting for new "paint" to actually get some kind of power restored.

Too many points of failure.

TheBrutalTruth said:

Okay, so it just flies off with my roof instead, or gets damaged by dust, or tornados. Still means that I'm stuck waiting for new "paint" to actually get some kind of power restored.

Too many points of failure.

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you're trying real hard to dispute this and I don't know why. Let me try again. The option to put solar panels, or paint, or whatever is your option and yours alone. There are still solar FACTORIES being built all around the world producing the same energy you pay for now. If you so choose, you can pay a bill to Solar Power Company A rather than having it free. It's your choice. I would choose the free option. If you wan't to pay a bill to keep your house solar panel free, so be it. I would make the point that if a storm rips the roof of your house, its probably taking the power lines with it, so you're not better of there.

Just to give you an idea of the scale I am talking about here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_plants_in_the_Mojave_Desert
even these are a scratch on the surface. Solar isn't where it needs to be yet, but with the right funding it will be there very soon.

TheBrutalTruth said:

The planet is a really, really big place, and how much of that is reflected by clouds, how much is absorbed by atmospheric particles, distorted by atmospheric interference?

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That figure takes into account all the variables you questioned and more. Thats usable solar power i'm speaking of.

Inneed that still supplies it to a grid, which is something that you are saying it wont need to do.

Though I still fail to see how you can say that it is going to remain reliable in the event of a storm, or overcast weather, or any other event that interferes with its capability to actually collect solar radiation.

Currently, the cost of solar thermal produced energy can be close to 12 cents (US) per kilowatt-hour (kWh). However, many economists predict that this price will gradually drop over the next ten years to 6 cents per kWh, as a result of economies of scale and technological improvements.[4]

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Even being generous and granting that it'll drop to 3 cents/kwh means that it is still less efficient than Nuclear.

The unique feature of Solar Two was its use of molten salt to capture and store the sun's heat. The very hot salt was stored and used when needed to produce steam to drive a turbine/generator that produces electricity. The system operated smoothly through intermittent clouds and continued generating electricity long into the night.[6]

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Interesting...

Though I really want a definition of the term long, as it relates to time.


Though still, even conceding that Solar might be useful on Earth, and might eventually become more effective than Fission, I'd still rather have Fusion Power, because it will be a key technology to space exploration and colonization.

TheBrutalTruth said:

Inneed that still supplies it to a grid, which is something that you are saying it wont need to do.

Though I still fail to see how you can say that it is going to remain reliable in the event of a storm, or overcast weather, or any other event that interferes with its capability to actually collect solar radiation.



Even being generous and granting that it'll drop to 3 cents/kwh means that it is still less efficient than Nuclear.



Interesting...

Though I really want a definition of the term long, as it relates to time.


Though still, even conceding that Solar might be useful on Earth, and might eventually become more effective than Fission, I'd still rather have Fusion Power, because it will be a key technology to space exploration and colonization.

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I don't entirely disagree. Fusion power will have its role to play, I'm sure the French have a good reason for building that plant, i just don't know if it's a GLOBAL solution. Time will tell. So much depends on the advances in technology in the next few years. If they make better advances in nuclear, than I'll be the first to change my tone. That's why I'm here getting this degree.

Safety, and disposal... yeah, those are issues that need to be addressed, more disposal than anything else. For some reason Nevada doesn't want it stored in Yucca Mountain, those selfish bastards, lol.

I'm joking about Nevada. Ideally there would be away to eliminate radioactive waste.

Though another reason why I'm still against Solar is that I have yet to see any solar company publicly disclose its finances because they are all privately owned. It's hard to want to support an industry that doesn't allow public review of its finances, and still hasn't matured to the point of allowing investment, and thus being regulated into detailing their finances on a 10K or Annual Report.

I hate all races equally. Isnt Obama more arab than african? I thought he was like 8% african, 42% arab, and 50% white or something like that.

dknob said:

I hate all races equally. Isnt Obama more arab than african? I thought he was like 8% african, 42% arab, and 50% white or something like that.

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yeah his dad looks real arab lol Image:Barack Obama Sr Jr.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh man total arab.





lol

natrone23 said:

yeah his dad looks real arab lol Image:Barack Obama Sr Jr.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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