Oil Companies Are Using a Simple Trick to Bilk Consumers out of Billions

M

may

Well-Known Member
Dankdude said:
I rough necked for 2 years and I worked in a Phillips refinery for 1 1/2 years in Skellytown Texas (which at the time was a Coking plant) then I worked at the Phillips Plant in Borger Texas for another year.

The octane rating is a measure of the autoignition resistance of gasoline and other fuels used in spark-ignition internal combustion engines. It is a measure of anti-detonation of a gasoline or fuel.

Octane number is the number which gives the percentage, by volume, of iso-octane in a mixture of iso-octane and normal heptane, that would have the same anti-knocking capacity as the fuel which is under consideration. For example, gasoline with the same knocking characteristics as a mixture of 90% iso-octane and 10% heptane would have an octane rating of 90.

Now Catalist cracking is achived by this method:

Modern cracking uses zeolites as the catalyst. These are complex aluminosilicates, and are large lattices of aluminium, silicon and oxygen atoms carrying a negative charge. They are, of course, associated with positive ions such as sodium ions. You may have come across a zeolite if you know about ion exchange resins used in water softeners.

The alkane is brought into contact with the catalyst at a temperature of about 932°F and moderately low pressures.

The zeolites used in catalytic cracking are chosen to give high percentages of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 10 carbon atoms - particularly useful for petrol (gasoline). It also produces high proportions of branched alkanes and aromatic hydrocarbons like benzene.

Thermal cracking:
In thermal cracking, high temperatures (typically in the range of 842°F to 1382°F) and pressures (up to about 70 atmospheres) are used to break the large hydrocarbons into smaller ones. Thermal cracking gives mixtures of products containing high proportions of hydrocarbons with double bonds - alkenes.
Thermal cracking doesn't go via ionic intermediates like catalytic cracking. Instead, carbon-carbon bonds are broken so that each carbon atom ends up with a single electron. In other words, free radicals are formed.

During the Refining process you will also seperate methane (1 carbon atom), ethane (2 carbon atom),propane (3 carbon atoms ), butane (4 carbon atoms), pentane (5 carbon atoms), hexane (6 carbon atoms), heptane (7 carbon atoms), octane (8 carbon atoms), nonane (9 carbon atoms), decane (10 carbon atoms).

The atoms in alkanes with more than three carbon atoms can be arranged in many ways, leading to a large number of potential different configurations (isomers). So-called "normal" alkanes have a linear, unbranched configuration, but the n- isomer of any given alkane is only one of potentially hundreds or even possibly millions of configurations for that number of carbon and hydrogen atoms in some sort of chain arrangement.

I hate to tell you this, but your not the only one here that has a bit of a background in organic chemistry. I did a lot more than turnarounds in the refinery..

Now I do not believe that we are headed the right direction when we start using Ethanol as a fuel. I believe that Biodiesel is more of a step in the right direction.
It's easy to manufacture and you bet a lot more bang for your buck with it.
Click to expand...
While we do agree {as far as I can tell} on ethanol and biodiesel, tell me what you think of methyl alochol?

Also your cut and paste only gives proof of you knowing how to look things up.

If as you say have a background in organic chemistry, then tell us of carbon bonds.
What makes carbon bonds so special?

The truth is you have yet to show me that you have true knowledge in this area.
 
Dankdude

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
I see no problem with it as it has been used (Mixed with Nitroglycerin) in drag racing for decades. The only problem i see with it is that it doesn't produce the raw power that gasoline does. I beleive that Gasoline produces something like 20,000 BTUs per pound. where as methyl alcohol is somewhere around 10,200 BTUs per pound and ethyl alcohol produces around 12,550 BTUs per pound. Soy Bean based Biodiesel on the other hand produces around 52,000 BTUs per pound.
A carbon bond is a covalent bond between two carbon atoms.
Carbon is the base for all life forms on earth.
Do we have to keep going with High School chemistry?
 
Dankdude

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
may said:
Concrete dosn't trap heat.....

Although it does absorb a lot [because of its mass} and heat moves through it at rate of about 1 foot per 24 hours.
Click to expand...
Splitting hairs now are we??? Concrete holds heat for long periods of time (thus trapping).
Think about that same concrete on a 100+° day. as night falls does this heat go away? NO. it lessens a little but that same concrete will still be holding the heat the very next day.
Now think of a whole bunch of 100+° days in a row, say a week or a month... How long does it take for that heat to reach the tanks?
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
Dankdude said:
Not completely correct.
The Concrete heats the soil, the soil heats the tank. It doesn't heat it to the extent that it becomes volatile. But enough that there is going to be expansion. Then you have to take into account that it picks up heat from going through the plumbing (friction) and the hose into your tank (radiant heat).
There are a lot of things that are not being taken into account here.
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First gas doesn't become volatile. it is volatile, this state is not changeable.
For your info volatile means it evaporates very easily.

As far heat from friction that is negligible.

Heat transfer from the hose would be from conduction, not from radiation.

Heat moves 3 ways conduction, radiation and convection.

As I said before heat always wants to move up.
 
Dankdude

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
You forgot the forth, Friction (although intentionally for gotten)..... Friction produces heat... and yes there is friction in liquid transfer.
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
Dankdude said:
You forgot the forth, Friction (although intentionally for gotten)..... Friction produces heat... and yes there is friction in liquid transfer.
Click to expand...
A beautiful young lady once asked me if I ever smoked after sex. I told her that I didn't know because I've never looked. :blsmoke:

Vi
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
Dankdude said:
Splitting hairs now are we??? Concrete holds heat for long periods of time (thus trapping).
Think about that same concrete on a 100+° day. as night falls does this heat go away? NO. it lessens a little but that same concrete will still be holding the heat the very next day.
Now think of a whole bunch of 100+° days in a row, say a week or a month... How long does it take for that heat to reach the tanks?
Click to expand...
If what you thank were true than it wouldn't be cool underground.

Heat will radiate off into the atmosphere and space, and by convection be carried by the air.

Heat will stratify, just as a thermocline in water.

I repeat heat wants to go up.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
Dankdude said:
You forgot the forth, Friction (although intentionally for gotten)..... Friction produces heat... and yes there is friction in liquid transfer.
Click to expand...
I did not forget anythng, as I said heat moves 3 ways.

If you could read you would note I said that heat from friction is negligible.
Friction causes knetic entergy from a macro level to phase change into knetic entergy at a micro or a molecular level. So you should understand that heat is just movement at a molecular level.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
may said:
I did not forget anythng, as I said heat moves 3 ways.

If you could read you would note I said that heat from friction is negligible.
Friction causes knetic entergy from a macro level to phase change into knetic entergy at a micro or a molecular level. So you should understand that heat is just movement at a molecular level.
Click to expand...
You guys need to quit jerking each other off and just buy your gas at 5 AM. I owned a gas station and I know the gas changes temp during the night. We always tried to schedule our gas deliveries in the middle of the night, I can't put a # to it but it would make a few more gallons in the daytime, these were 12,000 gallon tanks, burried 4 ft under the asphalt surface, and if they topped them off at night and we didn't pump any, they would spill out the overflow, that only happened once in the ten years we owned the place, After topping off in the middle of the night when we opened in the AM, an electrical problem kept us from pumping untill past noon and a few gallons expanded out of the overflow, this was before all the heavy restrictions on gas stations, we used to wash spills down the gutter.
 
Dankdude

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
may said:
If what you thank were true than it wouldn't be cool underground.

Heat will radiate off into the atmosphere and space, and by convection be carried by the air.

Heat will stratify, just as a thermocline in water.

I repeat heat wants to go up.
Click to expand...

Sorry this is where you are full of shit, you are looking at it from an academic view point. When is the last time you have broken up the concrete on a hot day and removed it? Never I'm betting.
I do Concrete work now days, and guess what, I live in Texas where it's always 100+°F on a daily basis during the summer.

Guess what, 3 Months ago I worked to help remove a buried gasoline Tank, If heat is setting in one place long enough it will go down. Also when is the last time you say in a Tornado Shelter? Go into one sometime... It's under ground, the one in my back yard has 5 feet of soil on top of it, guess what, it's 90°F all summer.. That blows your Theory out of the water right there...
So how long do you want to continue on this.

Please go beyond an academic stand point and tell us of your real life experience.

Since you were testing me, Please tell us what you know about electronics, both analog and digital. How does a diode work?
How does a capacitor work?
How does a and gate work?
How does a nand gate work?

Also as far as Medicine, when someone has a head injury, does their blood pressure go up or down?
How does the circulatory system work?
Can you tell me how the liver works and the enzymes it produces?
Tell me what each of the numbers on a CBC slip means?
What is an LFT?

And answer all of this with out googling it as you accused me of doing.

I would have been on a lot sooner had not the tower for my wireless Internet system been struck by lightning.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
Dankdude said:
I see no problem with it as it has been used (Mixed with Nitroglycerin) in drag racing for decades. The only problem i see with it is that it doesn't produce the raw power that gasoline does. I beleive that Gasoline produces something like 20,000 BTUs per pound. where as methyl alcohol is somewhere around 10,200 BTUs per pound and ethyl alcohol produces around 12,550 BTUs per pound. Soy Bean based Biodiesel on the other hand produces around 52,000 BTUs per pound.
A carbon bond is a covalent bond between two carbon atoms.
Carbon is the base for all life forms on earth.
Do we have to keep going with High School chemistry?
Click to expand...

Sorry to tell you this DD but your lack of understanding shows whenever you post, and while others may not see this, please understand that I do.

Nitrous-oxide is used in dentistry as an anaesthetic.
It can be made by heating pure ammonium nitrate to about 450%f but heated just a bit more and it will explode. Please DO NOT TRY THIS.
Nitrous is also used for a nice jump in HP mostly for racing street or track. This works because when heated the nitrogen and oxygen bond is cracked and oxygen is free for use in combustion with the fuel and by adding extra fuel along with the nitrous you have more fuel to combust so therefore get more HP simple.
Nitromethane is a fuel which has this nitrous within it as a compound and like above when heated the bond is cracked and oxygen freed and is used for combustion, and both are metered into the engine as a liquid an so are compact.
While nitromethane is added to gas, nitro-glycerin is never added nor is it used in any processes for the above use.
Nitro-glycerin is made by adding glycerin to a mixture of sulphuric and nitric acids mixing and the nitro- glycerin will form. DO NOT TRY ot make this.

I asked you why is gas octane rated?
and
What is this octane rating for?
If you would have noted that I asked the same question two times and added butane as another of the 4 tanes hoping to get something from you past the obvious and I didn't even get what I hoped for. Just an easy to find cut and paste.
I just wanted something past the obvious. Or you could have stated something like the octane rating of octane is 100 and it is used as the standard but it is only one point and the need to go above and below this point we have need for more points, and mixing octane with heptane which has almost no resistance to autoignition is used to set more points on this graph.

Now tell me how this graph would be ploted above 100?

You could have explaned autoignition or that heat and pressure is its cause {although a hot spot in the chamber could also be the cause} or you could said a lot of other things that would shown thought. While I understand you worked on your cut and paste, I was looking for a thought process.

I hoped that you would understand and state that methyl-alcohol although it has less energy than ethyl is made from cellulose, where ethyl is being made from corn a heavy feeder that depleates the soil, the ammonium nitrate it feeds on takes a lot of energy in the form of natural gas to produce. That corn prices have gone up and because of this meat prices have also risen. That land for this has been removed from food production and so the price of other food will and is also rising.

Do you see that methyl being made from cellulose has potential?

Time to eat, may be back later.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
Dankdude said:
Sorry this is where you are full of shit, you are looking at it from an academic view point. When is the last time you have broken up the concrete on a hot day and removed it? Never I'm betting.
I do Concrete work now days, and guess what, I live in Texas where it's always 100+°F on a daily basis during the summer.

Guess what, 3 Months ago I worked to help remove a buried gasoline Tank, If heat is setting in one place long enough it will go down. Also when is the last time you say in a Tornado Shelter? Go into one sometime... It's under ground, the one in my back yard has 5 feet of soil on top of it, guess what, it's 90°F all summer.. That blows your Theory out of the water right there...
So how long do you want to continue on this.

Please go beyond an academic stand point and tell us of your real life experience.

Since you were testing me, Please tell us what you know about electronics, both analog and digital. How does a diode work?
How does a capacitor work?
How does a and gate work?
How does a nand gate work?

Also as far as Medicine, when someone has a head injury, does their blood pressure go up or down?
How does the circulatory system work?
Can you tell me how the liver works and the enzymes it produces?
Tell me what each of the numbers on a CBC slip means?
What is an LFT?

And answer all of this with out googling it as you accused me of doing.

I would have been on a lot sooner had not the tower for my wireless Internet system been struck by lightning.
Click to expand...
Why does a root cellar stay cool?
Why does a wine cellar stay cool?
Well water why is it cool?
Ever been in a cave?

How can so many animals be smart enough to scrape an inch or two dirt off and lay in the cool spot and you seem not to be smart enough to get out o the sun, it could have been this that has fried your brain.

The truth is I'm tops in hardwire circuits and if you wish to get into something that would be helpfull to others here, start something up and I will join in.

As for a capacitor its foil seperated by dielectric paper that takes, holds and releases a charge, which retards and changes the shape of the sine wave.

Both gates are parts of a logic circuit. To be honest I don't remember nor care.

Maybe you should remember that it was you that was braging on your knowledge of a refinery.

While I know a fair amount about medicine, you will never know.

I have only googled one time and may never again, hell I change what I am going to say rather than look up how to spell a word.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
The truth here hinges on if gas is cooler in an above ground tank in the sun or underground out of it. For me the answer is obvious. Simple is it not?

Remember that the money to pay for this will from the pocket of the masses and even if you believe what house politicians did with the numbers that the retailers and oil companies gave them, its still at the very best a trade off, and the truth is they want the poor man to pay to put money in to the pocket of the oil industry. Remember that in canada they admit that this was for, and did benefit the oil companies and retailers.

I guess I shouldn't find it strange that DD who has admited to being on an oil companys payroll more than once and MM who has admited to being in business with them. They were the ones fighting me, for oil companys, retailers and big business {the selling of these devices will be more than two a half billion}, While I understand their loyality to business partners and employers. I just think what tools they are.

MM and DD you are a pair of brainwashed rightwing capitalist neocons and you should ashamed of yourselves.
 
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