National Popular Vote because it's the President of the United States...

Dryxi

Well-Known Member
If the President and Congress had less power over the happenings within the states, it wouldn't be such an issue. The President is elected to represent everyone, not just rural or urban areas. They shouldn't have (or be able to use easily) the power to change our lives every 4 years. that should be in the hands of the people actually voted by the citizens of that state.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
The founding fathers implemented the electoral college for the purpose of correcting an election if the people got it wrong. The electors were to be “wiser” than the average voter.

Considering the founding father’s intent, one could say the electoral college system is not the most democratic of processes.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
If the President and Congress had less power over the happenings within the states, it wouldn't be such an issue. The President is elected to represent everyone, not just rural or urban areas. They shouldn't have (or be able to use easily) the power to change our lives every 4 years. that should be in the hands of the people actually voted by the citizens of that state.
Outside of the shit job he has done (piss poor pandemic response, alienating all of our allies while he cuddles up to dictators, and his daily barrage of attacks against people who are not in his cult to name a few). I really can't think of anyway that Trump has had a direct impact in my actual life as an American (in a state who is not a cult member of his).

We need to elect better people and not fall for the 'it doesn't matter' trolling that has programmed us to think this lie is true.
The founding fathers implemented the electoral college for the purpose of correcting an election if the people got it wrong. The electors were to be “wiser” than the average voter.

Considering the founding father’s intent, one could say the electoral college system is not the most democratic of processes.
That was always why the House of Representatives was always the only actual democratically elected position on the federal level. They have the power of the purse and are the investigative body. Trump obstructed congress is another illegal act he will hopefully have charged against him when this is all said and done.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I think you knee cap me by asking me to come up with changes to make, but not being able to use voter suppression changes as the fix, which is where I believe the biggest problems (along with Gerrymandering) lie (both can be ballot initiatives in states to fix).

Trump IMO is showing us the risks that are inherent with allowing a foreign government root around in our democracy and having a criminal running for POTUS.

To fix the EC, I would start with the census.
Trump was a minority president. Yes, he was given a nudge by foreign governments through their use of propaganda and a wealth of stolen e-mails to use against Clinton. Yes, he was given a nudge through systematic voter suppression and Gerrymandering that favored Republicans. He was also given a nudge by bias introduced to our system through the EC. I oppose them all.

I revisited this thread to see if anybody else thought that Trump's actions were a further indictment against the EC. From what I've read, apparently not.
 
The United States is a constitutional Republic. It is not a Democracy. Benjamin Franklin has been credited with the following quote: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." When rights are determined by the majority, only the majority have rights. Why should a plethora of Californians have the right to elect a president who wants to restrict the gun rights of a few West Virginians? The electoral college protects the minority of U.S citizens. Congress has a Senate chamber for the same reason. The House of Representatives (a.k.a. the lower house) represents the nation's populace but the more powerful Senate (a.k.a. the upper house) does not.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
The United States is a constitutional Republic. It is not a Democracy. Benjamin Franklin has been credited with the following quote: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." When rights are determined by the majority, only the majority have rights. Why should a plethora of Californians have the right to elect a president who wants to restrict the gun rights of a few West Virginians? The electoral college protects the minority of U.S citizens. Congress has a Senate chamber for the same reason. The House of Representatives (a.k.a. the lower house) represents the nation's populace but the more powerful Senate (a.k.a. the upper house) does not.
We don't need a civics lesson or one in semantics. Trump ran against the constitution of the united states and openly broke the law. If you don't agree see you in court, if you do, great. We liberals are all about liberty, the democracy part is a recontextualization of the original Greek, today it means we elect our representatives as the Romans did and their elected body functions democratically. Liberal means living free under the constitution and the rule of law, made by people you elect. Yep that's what a libertard is a free person, while a republican is a slave of Trump, enthralled to a psychopathic moron with an IQ of 78. It would be pathetic if it wasn't so dangerous that 72 million Americans are utter and complete moral failures.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
The United States is a constitutional Republic. It is not a Democracy. Benjamin Franklin has been credited with the following quote: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." When rights are determined by the majority, only the majority have rights. Why should a plethora of Californians have the right to elect a president who wants to restrict the gun rights of a few West Virginians? The electoral college protects the minority of U.S citizens. Congress has a Senate chamber for the same reason. The House of Representatives (a.k.a. the lower house) represents the nation's populace but the more powerful Senate (a.k.a. the upper house) does not.
Well said.

Why SHOULD a large number of Californians have the right to elect a president?

What a wonderful bit of illusion you created there. Actually, "Californians" don't have that right and wouldn't if the EC were gone. If the EC were eliminated or rendered moot, the president would be elected by the people of the US.

So, answer me this:

Why SHOULD a few Montanans have more say in who will be president than people who live in California?



Regarding your first sentence, you are confused by simple words. This is a Constitutional Republic and the Constitution specifically lays out the rules by which the public elects representatives into offices of the government. So, we are not a direct democracy, we are a representative democracy. In any case, you spout bullshit produced in the fields of small states that want to disenfranchise people. Republicans do not want democracy. Clearly, through the leader they follow, they do not want a democracy of any description. They want a king.

Oh and your propaganda fluff is very nicely destroyed in this article:

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.

Dependent on a minority of the population to hold national power, Republicans such as Senator Mike Lee of Utah have taken to reminding the public that “we’re not a democracy.” It is quaint that so many Republicans, embracing a president who routinely tramples constitutional norms, have suddenly found their voice in pointing out that, formally, the country is a republic. There is some truth to this insistence. But it is mostly disingenuous. The Constitution was meant to foster a complex form of majority rule, not enable minority rule.


The following is an indictment of the Republican Party's intent to subvert our Representative Democracy and as you say rule through a Republic:

If the polls are any indication, more Americans may vote for Vice President Biden than have ever voted for a presidential candidate, and he could still lose the presidency. In the past, losing the popular vote while winning the Electoral College was rare. Given current trends, minority rule could become routine. Many Republicans are actively embracing this position with the insistence that we are, after all, a republic, not a democracy.

They have also dispensed with the notion of building democratic majorities to govern, making no effort on health care, immigration, or a crucial second round of economic relief in the face of COVID-19. Instead, revealing contempt for the democratic norms they insisted on when President Barack Obama sought to fill a vacant Supreme Court seat, Republicans in the Senate have brazenly wielded their power to entrench a Republican majority on the Supreme Court by rushing to confirm Justice Amy Coney Barrett. The Senate Judiciary Committee vote to approve Barrett also illuminates the disparity in popular representation: The 12 Republican senators who voted to approve of Barrett’s nomination represented 9 million fewer people than the 10 Democratic senators who chose not to vote. Similarly, the 52 Republican senators who voted to confirm Barrett represented 17 million fewer people than the 48 senators who voted against her. And the Court Barrett is joining, made up of six Republican appointees (half of whom were appointed by a president who lost the popular vote) to three Democratic appointees, has been quite skeptical of voting rights—a severe blow to the “democracy” part of a democratic republic. In 2013’s Shelby County v. Holder, the Court struck down a section of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 that allowed the federal government to preempt changes in voting regulations from states with a history of racial discrimination.


I can understand why Republicans don't want a Democracy of any type, including the Representative Democracy that we currently have. They don't represent the future, they represent the past. They have no new ideas, they only cling to the myth of an America that never was. As in "Make America Great Again". America wasn't great for everybody. I want an America that is great for everybody. I want a better future, not a shitty past.

So I vote for and by my actions work to sustain the democracy your kind of people would take away from us. And take away our future.
 
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