Mychorizzal, is it missing in our super soil mix?

I make sure to sprinkle my roots with mycorrhizae every time I transplant. Direct contact with the roots is the surest way to innoculate. Root drenches are great but often you use a lot of mycorrhizae for what it's worth - I prefer to dust the roots instead. Obviously if you aren't transplanting anytime soon a root drench is the way to go.

As far as the whole mycorrhizae dying with out roots, I was under the impression that the mycos lay dormant until they are activated by the presence of root exudates - which draw them to the plant. I'm not sure if "cooking" your soil will get rid of the mycos, as I always mix in mycos with my soil mix before cooking and have great results. Think about it in nature - mycorrhizal fungai need to have the ability to lie dormant in the soil when there are no roots around. Think about a prairie in the winter - no roots (maybe tree roots for the ecto - but no roots for the endo) and yet come springtime the plants are jamming along like usual - and I'd bet anything that if you dug up a patch of grass and looked at the roots under a microscope you'd see a gang of endomycorrhizae having a great time. Maybe I am wrong, but nature doesn't apply mycorrhizal root drenches every spring...it just rains, seeds pop, and the roots activate the dormant mycos in the soil. This is just my take on it after reading Teaming with Microbes...

As far as the web that often forms on top of the cooking soil - this cannot be mycorrhizae because mycos need roots in order to survive, so unless you have something with roots growing in your cooking mix it is impossible. Instead, this web is mycelium from another fungus - this is a good thing because it shows your soils ability to hold life, and fungal hyphae tend to improve soil in a variety of ways.

Also, I think most mixes like sunshine etc are cooked and then inoculated afterwards - the soil manufacturers are dumb but they aren't that ignorant So I wouldn't worry about receiving "dead" bags. If a bag gets wet I don't think it's ruined, because mycos aren't activated by moisture, they're activated by exudates...at least I think so...

Generally as a rule of thumb I always apply mycorrhizae even if my soil mix already has it - just to be sure - and because more colonies can't hurt. Anything from fungi perfecti is great (Paul Stamets knows his shit when it comes to fungus - check out the book Mycellium Running) and also Oregonism by Aurora is one of my favorites. I have heard good things about Great White, Mykos, etc. but I have never had the urge to try them (too damn expensive!)

I'd love to see this thread keep going - everyone should know about mycorrhizae and how important they are for all plants, let alone cannabis....

Well said!

I started this thread just to focus on super soil, I've watched many weed nerd shows and read countless articles and started to realize that if what the rev says is true, then shit we been missing a key ingredient this whole time!
But like you said, it could be inoculated afterwards.

Well said cann

foreverflyhi said:

Well, the bottle of mycho is (in theory) alive, like mention early, Mychorizzal does not survive the cooking process, ALL soil companies cook their soil before being put in bags.


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you say it can't live with out roots, but it can live in a bottle with no roots, but can not survive in dirt with out roots? I can understand the cooking process of the soil, but what does that have to do with it needind ROOTS???? nothing!!

As I use my SS I amend extreme gardenings "mykos" in. And then sprinkle some into the transplant hole.

as said on page 2 mycorrhizal inoculant is what they put in soil witch are spores that stay dormant untill water is added to the soil this activates the spores and makes them grow.

Hi all. Awesome to see the discussions of symbiosis continuing!

First, I'd just like to second Rising Moon's advocacy of the Fungi Perfecti products - this is the company of Paul Stamets, a world renowned mycologist who I'm going to go ahead and bet really believes in what he does. Look the guy up on youtube or something - he does some really amazing things w/ fungi above and beyond helping our plants. To say nothing particularly negative about other products, I don't know of any other supplements which make a mix designed specifically to facilitate seedlings, and one for when they get stronger and more capable of benefitting from a broader community of organisms. Viability and appropriate strain selection are key in bioavailability - the difference between mutualism and parasitism in symbiosis is often nothing more than the relative strength of the parties in the relationship. So, your freshly germinated seedlings may not be prepared to cope with the vigor of some mycelial mats or bacterial colonies, and could actually be overrun. The needs of these normally beneficial colonies can outstrip the plant's ability to to provide for them, or the normally beneficial waste provisions of the relationship can do something akin to a nutrient burn.

Foreverflyhi - I'm not sure what you mean by 'all companies cook their soil'. I don't know the background of this as far as the companies are concerned, but the presence of fungus gnat, mite, et al larvae in so many soils we get would suggest it's not, at least universally, true. There are also different levels of what you refer to as 'cooking' - pasteurization, at 160 degrees fahrenheit, is performed to kill insect and most fungal growth. Autoclaving or sterilization, which requires pressurization at 250 degrees fahrenheit, is used to kill pretty much everything. There are some forms of thermophilic archaea which can survive those temperatures, but I believe that these generally exist in such niche environments (black smoker thermal vents, etc.) that they would die as soon as conditions were returned to what we consider normal. So, I think some companies may pasteurize their soils, but it's an expense and I suspect, given the choice between that profit margin loss in pasteurization and turning the alternative into the marketing bullet point "contains active rhizospheric support colonies [and possibly thrips, gnats, mites...but we'll let you find that out for yourself]", many soil companies more interested in profit will opt to not cook/pasteurize, nor make an explicit re-innoculation effort following pasteurization. Just establish colonies where the soils are developed, and send them along. Just a guess of course.

Agreed with Cann that assuring innoculation in all transplants/mixes can't be a bad thing. I think, however, that this may be more for the propagation/permeation of the bacterial species than the fungal ones. Fungi's ability to colonize soil is incredible, and mycorrhizal species' propagation is further facilitated by the growth of the plants with which they're paired - they literally ride along with the growth of the root tips. It would be great to see innoculants separated along these lines - mycorrhizal species in a two-stage pairing for seeding and latter growth, each applied only once. Then, a bacterial and non-mycorrhizal fungal innoculant for mixture into all transplant soil volumes . Until then, I'd second Cann's advice for the best results.

Well said and I agree. as far as the soil companies go, if they are "organic" (vital earth organics 4 example)and add additives, they certainly do cook their soil before its package. furthermore, think about it, when it's packaged,it's cooking, it's not just sitting there (or is it..)

Medical/420
I'm sure we r on the same page, just not the same paragraph lol, if it's in a bottle, then it's the spore of mychorrizal, when roots are present in the soil, the spore innoculate then creating a symbiotic relationship with the whole soil, but especially the roots because that's what it needs to survice (teaming with microbes)

Cann
After re re reading what u said earlier,
it made me think of my permactulre class and a particular day we focused on mushrooms. He showed us a slide show of diffrent varieties of mychorrizal fruit bodies. Each one was diffrent in its own way, but they all acted the same by latching on to the roots. Some creating a healthy relationship, and some even being bad.
So like I said earlier, after re re reading your post, made me think of how Mychorizzal survives in the wild, and that's through it's fruits spores, much like wild plants and seeds. I'm pretty positive colonies that stretch miles long survive by just fruiting one little mushroom.
Also, I remember my professor stating that most mychorrizal inoculants don't fruit fruiting bodies because that's how they where design. (not sure on his source on this..) but if u think about it, it makes sense, what company would want you to collect there spores so you can colonize your own?
I'm just not sure if companies are capable of doing such a act of god? Lol getting way over my head

I use the above mentioned mycogrow from fungiperfecti too. I use it about third watering from seed, then 10 days after transplant. You guys should grow some mushrooms to get a better understanding how mushrooms work. They're not as complicated or sophisticated as some make em out to be. Spores>mycelium>mushrooms>spores(they can do this in 24 hrs). Spores and mushrooms can lye dormant for maybe thousands of years. For example remember the best bag of mushrooms you ever ate if you took a dried piece you can revive it and it will continue to grow and fruit again(reveg aint to bad for mushies imagine if you could take a dry bud and revive it and clone it and get the exact same clone).

Fungal hyphae on the surface after 7 days cooking...

AH, thanks Cann & FFlyHi: I misunderstood how you were using the term 'cooking'. My confusion is from being accustomed to saying 'colonizing' for the same process, but we more explicitly mean, "allowing time for fungi and bacteria to grow within a substrate," and not any degree of sterilization. Yes, absolutely - I'm sure in this sense all soil companies 'cook'.

ExtremeMetal43 - I agree, it's a great exercise to grow mushrooms. I've actually done oysters, shimeji, chicken-of-the-woods, and reishi. I'm unaware of any mushroom-producing species of fungus which goes from spore to mycelium to mushroom in a 24 hour span though. I wouldn't count it out - fungi are amazing. And kudos to you if you've found growing them to be easy. Unless you're talking about using purchased plug spawn to innoculate log rounds, which still need some pretty careful humidity and temp control to get results, the process of going from innoculant, to agar, to grain spawn, to final substrate is something I've found to be pretty tough or at least careful and time-consuming work. Still well worth the effort if you've got the dedication, but I wouldn't want anyone to run out and buy a spore syringe or spawn without knowing that there will be some real work ensuing.
I will say though that one cannot take a piece of dried mycelium and revive it. As always, there may be exceptions to this, but generally, mycelium is dead once entirely dried. There are actually carbon sequestering packing materials made in this way - the manufacturers allow mycelium to colonize a molded substrate, dehydrate it, and then the resulting dried form is used like those pressed paper-pulp packing supports. The mycelium's ability to aggregate (hold together) the substrate is so powerful, that the resulting material is several times stronger than normal pulp or styrofoam packing. Flame retardent too. If the material were going to start growing into the foodstuffs, products, or surrounding cardboard it protected if it ever got wet, the practice wouldn't be viable.

This is the packing material that WAWill is referring to: [video]http://www.ted.com/talks/eben_bayer_are_mushrooms_the_new_plastic.html[/video]

Here is another video of the same stuff [video]http://focusforwardfilms.com/contest/77[/video]

Such a great idea...too bad it will never make it because the styrofoam companies would lose too much money...

And agreed that cultivating mushrooms is harder that you might think - if you think your grow room needs to be clean, mushroom cultivation needs to be STERILE at certain points - which is easier said than done. I wasted a few syringes before I realized that it is more difficult than it looks....but stick with it and the rewards can be outstanding

Sticky this bitch. This is like letters to penthouse for me... keep going. But slower and more detail lol

Dude you absolutely can take a dried mushroom or a piece of dried mycelium and revive it. Ive done it many times before. Get some antibacterial agar and put a dried piece of shroom on it and shit will start to grow. Your familiar with agar transfers right well you got to separate the good mushroom mycelium from the bad fungi growing into another dish. after a few tranfers you will have a clean mushroom culture. Throw it onto any grain you want it will colonize and spawn that and fruit it.

I didnt say growing mushrooms wasnt hard i said mushrooms are simple organisms they germinate grow mycelium super f'in fast then fruit and do it all over again have been for maybe millions of years. I couldnt find a fungi that goes thru its entire lifecycle in 24 hours but one bacteria can turn into a million in 10 hours and theyre is bacteria in soil and in most myco products. I wana say trich is super fast at reproducing definitely less than a week that shit spreads fast.

edit - found powdery mildew's lifecycle as quick as 5 days. i, sure there is quicker.