hydroboy27
Member
fatman, so advanced nutrients "chilating" or whatever the word they use, shilates? how do those get affected by the chlorine?
MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods
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fatman7574
New Member
The Chelates are man made and are considered organic carriers. They are made of chemicals but as they are mainly a carbon hydrogen chain compound they are defined as organic chemical compounds. They protect the metals from being oxidized and therefore assure their availability for plant root uptake. It is very hard to oxidize iron when it is chelated. It requires very large concentrations of chlorine and long contact times.
hydroboy27
Member
so chlorine has no adverse affects on advanced nutes of any kind?
Treeth
Well-Known Member
Yeah Fatman, so just how is it possible to keep any free chlorine ppm's, hypochlorites, chlorates,-or whatever quantum probability decides, available in the presence of our nutrient salts and buffers in solution... when these compounds are looking to oxidize?
Is free chlorine sanitation really only applicable while working with low ec nutrient solutions and in a run to waste, unbuffered, set up?
Is free chlorine sanitation really only applicable while working with low ec nutrient solutions and in a run to waste, unbuffered, set up?
fatman7574
New Member
Chloride is not really a very strong oxidant. It rakes only smallamounts for it tooxidize some organics but it is not so reactive with inorganics as that are not a slew of sacrificial hydrogens shouting out pick me as with the organics. Dumb little sacrificial turds. The cj hlorine exists in water as either the hypochlorite ion (OCL-) or as hydrochlorous acid (HOCl) As our hydropomic nutrients are low pH the Chlorine is mostly in the Hydrochlorous state, It has about a 40 to 80 times better killing rate than the hypochlorite. The hypochlorous acid simply relaces a H+ proton with organics. Organics are chiefly made up of weakly held H+ protons making them easily oxidized. For example. hypochlorous acid + ammomia. NH3 + HOCL becomes NH2Cl (monochloramine) + H2O. It does not react withh Nitrate, sulfates in general, or other inorganic salts used in nutrients. Calcium carbonate is tured back into soluble calcium by the acids in the ammonia reaction with hydrochloric acid. But most of us do not use high ammonium fertilizers and we have nutrient mixes made with monopotassium phosphate that protect the ammonium and prevent it from being turned into a gas.
So in a nut shell at low doses chlorine will have no real effect on any of the inorganic nutrients. At high levels there will be a bit of loss of buffering by bicarbonates in you nutrients thereby possibly causing a slight drop in pH, but that is with much higher concentratons of chlorine.
So in a nut shell at low doses chlorine will have no real effect on any of the inorganic nutrients. At high levels there will be a bit of loss of buffering by bicarbonates in you nutrients thereby possibly causing a slight drop in pH, but that is with much higher concentratons of chlorine.
hydroboy27
Member
well, knowing what i know, i kind of bounce back and forth from the fatman chlorine usage, and then beneficial enzymes and bacteria. WHen i encounter root rot, or some unforseen problem, i start running chlorine again. Once the problem is gone, i go back to using GREAT WHITE, and other beneficial bacteria for roots, about 3 days after i added the chlorine, and keep adding the beneficial bacteria from time to time. If a problem starts up again, i go back to a tablespoon of chlorine (bleach) per 55gal, and add that every 3 days, for about 9 days, so 3 total times. That usually solves all the problems... honestly, they are gone in the first 3 days after the first tablespoon, but i go 9 days to be safe.
I was just worried that i needed to flush my water afterwards because the chlorine was hurting the basic primary nutes... but apparently, im good to go.
I was just worried that i needed to flush my water afterwards because the chlorine was hurting the basic primary nutes... but apparently, im good to go.
fatman7574
New Member
Clorine is dissipated as a gas pretty quickly if you have aero mist or aeration of any sort.
hydroboy27
Member
how does chlorine affect anything like B-52 (vitamins), or bud ignitor, or thrive alive (hormones)?
hydroboy27
Member
a bit of a topic change... any advice on how to "dial in" proper on/off times for 30psi mp aero? Im not so much interested in math eaquations as i am, what do i need to observe on the roots? Before the next spray, should roots have any evidence of water drops on them still? I was doing short spray cycles, but it seemed as tho my roots remained dry and my plants were suffering. RIght now, im doing 30 sec on, and about 1.5 min off. I know this is WAY longer than what anyone suggests, but i wasnt getting any explosive root growth doing it the other way... so im obviously doing something wrong. Plants are in flower. Grew up in ez clone sprayer enviroment. Roots are about 2 foot long, touch the bottom of the chamber. About the diameter of a silver dollar, all the way down. No fuzzing or bushing out as of yet.
Perhaps my off times were too long before as i never did less than 1 minute? should i do 30 sec off, and a few sec on? Being MP, it seems the mist falls to the floor of the chamber relatively quickly.
Perhaps my off times were too long before as i never did less than 1 minute? should i do 30 sec off, and a few sec on? Being MP, it seems the mist falls to the floor of the chamber relatively quickly.
fatman7574
New Member
Are you using sprayer heads or mister heads. Sprayer heads are putting out a more varied droplet size than a mister head and a much greater volume. That means it is closer to the low pressure aero but with the roots out of water maeaning reoot rot is not a hugh issue. The long roots are primary roots, the shorter roots that grow out from them are lateral roots. The realy small, very short roots that grow out from these are the hair roots. Typically, if you have few lateral roots you are over watering when spraying. If you have a good proportion of lateral roots but few hair roots you are spraying too often but not really necessarily an excessive amount when you spray.
I would try 5 seconds on and 25 to 30 seconds on, then work out to longer periods off between 5 second sprays. Are you growing trees? The point is that the roots should take up nutrient water instantly upon contcat with the atomized nutrient water. Idealy this means that no water actually ever accumulates on the plants or the net pots etc. at a level that would appear as standing water as in big droplets. We are actually shooting for what is high end fog range to low end mist so 50 to 75 micron, but we end up with droplets also down into the 30 to 50 micron range also (these allow for longer breaks between sprays but thend to produce excessive hair roots). With misters used with medium pressure we typically get more like 50 to 100 micron. The large droplets are readily seen and yes they quickly fall from the air. The fog remains suspended in the air for long periods of time allowing for a longer time between sprays. However it tends to cause an overabundance of hair roots. This thread is more about very quick efficient growth the large trees in reality so that tends to mean minimal primary roots, a very large amount of lateral roots covered with a hugh amount of hair roots. This however tends to bonzai plants and shorten the internodal space so much it can look almost like the branches are almost on top of each other. Great for SOG's but it requires a lot more experimentation on cyclic timing to allow for trees as palnts given a choice always strive for fast maturity and reproduction not yield to the grower (height). Can you imagine how quickly a Ruderalis would bud in a HP or air atomized aero.
I would try 5 seconds on and 25 to 30 seconds on, then work out to longer periods off between 5 second sprays. Are you growing trees? The point is that the roots should take up nutrient water instantly upon contcat with the atomized nutrient water. Idealy this means that no water actually ever accumulates on the plants or the net pots etc. at a level that would appear as standing water as in big droplets. We are actually shooting for what is high end fog range to low end mist so 50 to 75 micron, but we end up with droplets also down into the 30 to 50 micron range also (these allow for longer breaks between sprays but thend to produce excessive hair roots). With misters used with medium pressure we typically get more like 50 to 100 micron. The large droplets are readily seen and yes they quickly fall from the air. The fog remains suspended in the air for long periods of time allowing for a longer time between sprays. However it tends to cause an overabundance of hair roots. This thread is more about very quick efficient growth the large trees in reality so that tends to mean minimal primary roots, a very large amount of lateral roots covered with a hugh amount of hair roots. This however tends to bonzai plants and shorten the internodal space so much it can look almost like the branches are almost on top of each other. Great for SOG's but it requires a lot more experimentation on cyclic timing to allow for trees as palnts given a choice always strive for fast maturity and reproduction not yield to the grower (height). Can you imagine how quickly a Ruderalis would bud in a HP or air atomized aero.
Jimmy Luffnan
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the above info Fatman,
I was actually curious about the root structure in HP aero, especially the root lengths. I actually do my plants vertically so it helps to work out what distance I need each plant above each other.
Im actually a part time ruderalis (auto) breeder and have gotten one of my plants to produce more lateral roots that are quite heavily covered in hairs compared to the other ruderalis by using LP aero and changing one of the misters below it.
I will try and take a photo tomorrow after work.
Also I'm wondering,
*Based on the above said, will HP aero actually decrease or increase my final yield if only used for flowering period?
*Will HP aero plants require flushing at the end if using low E.C organic nutrients throughout the flowering period?
Jimmy.
I was actually curious about the root structure in HP aero, especially the root lengths. I actually do my plants vertically so it helps to work out what distance I need each plant above each other.
Im actually a part time ruderalis (auto) breeder and have gotten one of my plants to produce more lateral roots that are quite heavily covered in hairs compared to the other ruderalis by using LP aero and changing one of the misters below it.
I will try and take a photo tomorrow after work.
Also I'm wondering,
*Based on the above said, will HP aero actually decrease or increase my final yield if only used for flowering period?
*Will HP aero plants require flushing at the end if using low E.C organic nutrients throughout the flowering period?
Jimmy.
hydroboy27
Member
im sure its been covered a zillion times, but i know as people gain experience their opinions change...
whats the best timer for this kind of stuff? I have capart timers. Im afraid off times dont get that short, could be wrong.
whats the best timer for this kind of stuff? I have capart timers. Im afraid off times dont get that short, could be wrong.
Jimmy Luffnan
Well-Known Member
Id say for LP/MP aero c.a.p timers are probably the most commonly used.
But if you have a look at the diagram on page 111 of this thread, Fatman has drawn the way a HP aero is setup and the component order if it helps.
The time cycle is controlled by a solenoid.
I'm actually at this very moment trying to find a solenoid to do this that can be adjusted if anybody can supply a link to one (preferably cheeeep! =P) and also is 3/8" if possible?
Pretty please? hehe
fatman7574
New Member
There will likely not be an appreciable increase in yield but instead a shortening of time required for the budding cycle. Doing the full grow with HP aero where you have a very high proportion of hair roots would actually likely lessen the overall yield as the plants will be much shorter. however they will grow much faster and the bud quality will be higher as the buds will be fatter and thicker as the internodal spacing would be a great deal shorter (ie a bonzai plant).
The TAG system is based upon basically growing more like LP aero during veg and HP aero during budding. They grow for tall plants that way as it is easier than trying to dial in the most efficient cyclic timing that will still allow tall plant growth with HP aero wg here hair roots and timing are a concern. The TAG buds tend to be too stretched and air, as they change their cyclic timing just a but two weeks before budding to build up a new growth of roots just below the net pots that is nearly all hair roots such as is typical of HP with short sprays far apart. The problem then is then the plants start growing efficiently and the plant buds so quickly that the buds do not fill out well as the inter nodal spacing is to large.
So for now the search is still ongoing for an ideal cyclic regime to find a middle ground that will allow more height (trees) and efficiency (massive hair root proportions/ quick to maturity/ close inter nodal spacing).
If using drain to waste there should be no gain to flushing as you base you nytrient strength on plant needs. If using a re circulating reservoir there is more of a proplem as the pH changes constantly through out the day making nutrient uptake at times totally unpredictable. This means at times plants take up and stores nutrients it may never need.
No the amount of nutrients found in plant tissues grown with drain to waste (especially HP or air atomized aero) are not the same as plants grown in soil, in re circulating reservoirs or hydro with absorbent media. The drain to waster HP or air atomized aero have lower concentrations of nearly all the nutrients, especially the highly mobile nutrients.
Mobility refers to the ability of a nutrient to move around within a plant once it has been taken up by the roots. Transpiration is the primary force driving the initial movement of nutrients from the roots to the leaves and shoots via the xylem. The highly mobile nutrients nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and magnesium can be remobilized and readily moved from older, mature leaves to new actively growing leaves .
Nutrient mobility gives plants some flexibility in allocating nutritional resources. If the supply of a mobile nutrient has been cut off, new tissue growth can proceed since the nutrient in short supply can be scavenged from the older leaves that are not actively growing.
Mobile nutrient deficiency symptoms are observed first on the older leaves. Consider an example where the nitrogen supply in the growing medium is suddenly cut off and there is no longer sufficient nitrogen for new growth. Because nitrogen can be mobilized from mature leaves to actively growing new leaves, deficiency symptoms (yellowing of the lower leaves) are exhibited first on the lower leaves. The young leaves can continue to grow with nitrogen scavenged from the older leaves. So when you see the older larger leaves during budding the plants are not receiving enough nutrients and are cannibalizing them selves. This means a loss in efficiency, potency and yield. I question the cognitive thinking abilities of any grower who flushes his/her plants. It makes no scientific or common sense. Starve your plants of nutrients at the point in their growth when the plants are putting nearly all their efforts directly into resin potency and seed pod, bract/calyx) plumping . Just because many others are incapable or too impatient to properly drying and cure their buds doesn’t mean you must flush.
fatman7574
New Member
I use Hayward Solenoid valves. They are not Cheap. This one is new and on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/HAYWARD-PVC-CPVC-SOLENOID-VALVE-1-2-TRUE-UNION-120V-/360252346524?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e0b6909c It sells for $220 retail. You can probably get it with an offer of $50 to $75
No Pressure Differential Design: For maximum application flexibility these heavy duty solenoid valves have been designed so that no pressure differential is needed for them to operate reliably. Their unique design eliminates problems such as sticking and "chattering" due to system pressure differentials that can effect ordinary solenoid valves. And their performance is not affected by downstream restrictions caused by nozzles, flow meters or other equipment. This is a real benefit in these types of applications. The valve will operate with up to 40 PSI of backpressure and up to 120 PSI of inlet pressure. There are no minimum pressure requirements.
True Union design
Continuous 100% duty applications
Corrosion-resistant polyester coil
Four-position electrical connection
Both 1/2" conduit or S-J Type cord electrical connection
115 VAC is standard
Two-Year Warranty
I go over kill onmy timers by Using Omrom H5CXA timers. I buy them on Eaby when ever I find them at a decent price,. That is not often. They retail for over $150 each. http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/675305-relay-timer-digital-spdt-100-240-h5cx-a-ac100-240.html Many places charge up to $250.
No Pressure Differential Design: For maximum application flexibility these heavy duty solenoid valves have been designed so that no pressure differential is needed for them to operate reliably. Their unique design eliminates problems such as sticking and "chattering" due to system pressure differentials that can effect ordinary solenoid valves. And their performance is not affected by downstream restrictions caused by nozzles, flow meters or other equipment. This is a real benefit in these types of applications. The valve will operate with up to 40 PSI of backpressure and up to 120 PSI of inlet pressure. There are no minimum pressure requirements.
True Union design
Continuous 100% duty applications
Corrosion-resistant polyester coil
Four-position electrical connection
Both 1/2" conduit or S-J Type cord electrical connection
115 VAC is standard
Two-Year Warranty
I go over kill onmy timers by Using Omrom H5CXA timers. I buy them on Eaby when ever I find them at a decent price,. That is not often. They retail for over $150 each. http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/675305-relay-timer-digital-spdt-100-240-h5cx-a-ac100-240.html Many places charge up to $250.
Essex
Active Member
Fatman, how does this compare to what u got for MJ nute uptake profile?
Veg,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 4.6%
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.5%
Total Potassium (k) 3.6%
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%
Total Calcium (Ca) 4.7%
Total Sulphur (S) 4.2%
Flower,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 1.2%
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.3%
Total Potassium (k) 2.6%
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%
Total Calcium (Ca) 3.8%
Total Sulphur (S) 3.2%
Am I close yet?
Cant find any info out there and what is out there seems incomplete?
Have u got any books ya recomend? or links?
Thanks man, ya the only person I have found that seems to be in the know!
Veg,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 4.6%
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.5%
Total Potassium (k) 3.6%
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%
Total Calcium (Ca) 4.7%
Total Sulphur (S) 4.2%
Flower,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 1.2%
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.3%
Total Potassium (k) 2.6%
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%
Total Calcium (Ca) 3.8%
Total Sulphur (S) 3.2%
Am I close yet?
Cant find any info out there and what is out there seems incomplete?
Have u got any books ya recomend? or links?
Thanks man, ya the only person I have found that seems to be in the know!
Jimmy Luffnan
Well-Known Member
Im really interested in the varied results from these setups.
Does anybody here have any 'root porn' photos from a HP or atomized grow?
Even a link or photo from somewhere else which may not be yours would be great as Id like to have a good look at the difference in root structure compared to a LP aero grow =)
It's probably a big ask, but if there are any pics of MJ plants just before harvest to get an idea of inter nodal spacing and bud density, that would be gold! =D
Cheers Jimmy.
Does anybody here have any 'root porn' photos from a HP or atomized grow?
Even a link or photo from somewhere else which may not be yours would be great as Id like to have a good look at the difference in root structure compared to a LP aero grow =)
It's probably a big ask, but if there are any pics of MJ plants just before harvest to get an idea of inter nodal spacing and bud density, that would be gold! =D
Cheers Jimmy.
theres some root shots in this thread somewhere i saw but dont remember where
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