My 11 x 400 watts lamps have nothing underneath!! kindly help...

Discussion in 'Marijuana Plant Problems' started by speero78, Jan 31, 2018.


    speero78 Well-Known Member

    Hello guys hope all of you are floating smoothly J

    This is the first time I use a forum of any sort. And I would really appreciate the help and support and your time. I have 2 issues that I would love to get an experienced opinion and guidance on.

    - Plants are Amnesia Haze clones: been vegging for a while in 1 gal potting mix. And kept them small till I finish building there room. In addition to AK47, sour diesel. All under 400 watt MH.

    - Need to save them because I have 11 x 400 watts MH and Sodium lamps waiting …with nothing underneath. i have been growing for years and i have never encountered a problem. the only variable in my grow is the COCO COIR:( i dont want to hate just yet;)...i love coco

    First issue:

    I am using coco coir for the first time. So I took my healthy clones that where in a soil mix and transplanted them in coco coir + some organic slow release NPK 10-0-4 only (no perlite or anything else)( didn’t know it was 10-0-4) also, at the time no PH nor TDS meter.

    Anyway, the plants took few days and then they grew beautifully. Meanwhile I was building my setup. They were good.

    Second reporting came and the room was ready. I transplanted in the same mix and moved them to higher intensity light (I think I should have eased them into it).
    So 10 days later the plants are dying. All pale green and leaves curl, burn and die. And this is daily. The plants are still very light green, but dying day after day. It looking like a nitrogen Defiance, yet I know there is slow release inside the mix?

    So I finally got the PH and TDS was still on the way. And did an immediate reading on the water I was giving and a run off.


    Tap water PH 8.3! And 550ppmL

    Run off: was 7.4PH

    I flushed with PH 6.5 but didn’t register the runoff.

    Been 1 week still now change and getting worse.

    I didn’t water yet because the dam coco just dried and taking forever. (Thinking I should re pot them all and add perlite).

    Is this what you call locking because of the High PH ?

    Now I am using bottled water from now one. PH 7.4 and 150 ppm composition in mg/L: 33cal/16mag/sodium2.3/N1.5/K0.13/sulphates12/Iron<0.001/flourides0.10.

    So with all this data, here are the questions:J

    1. Why the first transplant was ok knowing that I was using the 8.3PH water? And second time all went to hell.

    2. What should I do for this watering? Because this can make it or they are gone!!. But they have strong roots. So there hope. What PH I flush with ?

    3. I don’t have many option for nutrients in my country and supplements. But I have the following that I just got today. What do I use? That’s the second issue J??

    4. I also need your advice if it is possible to grow only using the organic products. I can’t find a good organic vegging NPK nutrients. So can u check the pictures and tell me what will be a good combination for vegging and blooming cycles. I know that nutes are nutes, I just need to know what to give and when? THANK YOU on this question because I know it’s a tough one.

    5. Is there a proper way that I need to do to prepare coco coir before use? Because as it is, it’s not working at all? Any advice??

    6. I keep seeing amino acid bottles with some nitrogen. How can I use these? And what do they help with or damage and can they be used as an NPK feed? Or with what combination of another NPK fertilizer, and in which cycle of the plant they can be used.

    7. Please, which one of those products in the pictures I can use to soak the clones with or feed to help them root faster and be healthier?

    Please ask any details that i have missed to help more in diagnosing and your valuable insight. i thank you so much in advance.

    Attached Files:


    blackmelo Well-Known Member

    tbh i hate coco. You are supposed to "wash" it before using it to remove any salts. Dirty business. Then I found it stays soggy far too long. Supposed to be great for retaining water, yep so is toilet paper. I think toilet paper might be better if it didn't decompose so fast lol.
    Anyway gl mate. You'll have a hard time finding organic hydro nutes, that's the point of using coco, all hydroponic with none of the benefits.

    ps coco needs a ph of around 5.8 so 8.3 was definetely locking out nutes and the effects took a week to show, showing faster under stronger lighting. They probably will recover but you haven't shown any pics to see the damage
    frizfrazjaz and speero78 like this.

    speero78 Well-Known Member

    i guess i am joining your club! it never dries jesus :) and i never over water since. haha toilet paper. oh yes allot of cleaning and shit. ppm starts at 1245ppm. i need to rinse it 3 times to take it the 150ppm. thank you for your input.ill be posting pics but didnt take any yet. ill do that tomorrow.

    ok so what you are saying if i use coco and cleaned it and shit. and use the FloraMato For soil and hydroponics.

    ok if i want to stay growing in soil. can mix the coco with Potting soil, peat moss, perlite and if so. can u advice on ratios?

    speero78 Well-Known Member

    what about the nutrients in the picture? what do u recommend? if u can . would appreciated. i have jack shit organic nutrients in this country. i have all this blue and pink scary chemical stuff ?

    blackmelo Well-Known Member

    hey speero, surprised you didn't get a better answer than my opinion.
    Just stick with what you have for now.
    One thing I have learnt when growing is to never make any drastic changes, learn from your mistakes and improve on the next one. If you try to improve things now and mess around with too many factors you will not know which did any good or which could do bad.

    Everyone has preferences, some might love coco, others might hate it. I never saw the benefit over soil, thats for sure.

    baxbax Member

    Do you have picture of your plants ? coco is better then soil if you know how to work with , it's natural ph is huge benefit in my opinion
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    Cold$moke and 6ixtynin9 like this.

    6ixtynin9 Well-Known Member

    Problem #1 - Slow release fertilizers. Unlike soil, coco is inert and has no nutrients for the plant to uptake. ZERO. You need to use nutes that are readily available to plants. You're plants are dying, you need nutes now, not 1 month later when the slow release kicks in.

    Problem #2 - Higher intensity lights = plants work harder to grow = needs more energy = higher feeding strength. Can cause light stressed/burn if light are too intense/close.

    Problem #3 - pH way too high. Coco is considered hydro (passive hydro). Requires a pH of 5.5 - 6.0

    Problem #4 - No mention of supplementing with CalMag. Coco has none so you'll need to add it in.

    Flush with plain 5.5 pH'd water until runoff falls into range, 5.5 - 6.0 with 5.8 being ideal. Then water with a mild CalMag + N solution.

    Coco, if in compressed blocks, needs to be expanded and washed. Some reputable manufacturers (i.e. Botanicare, etc.) with ready-to-use bagged coco, can be used right away. I've done so (Cocogro from Botanicare) with no problem whatsoever. Even when fully saturated with water, coco still holds up to 30% oxygen so you can't over water. I water everyday. Just make sure your your temp/environment are on point. Too hot/too cold combined with moist coco and bad environment, for an extended amount of time, can lead to root problem.

    Amino Acid are great for plants. It helps with photosynthesis, chelate calcium, increase roots mass, up taking of nutes, increased metabolism, fight stress, and many other things. Plants produces its own amino's but adding more and making it readily available when yhe plant needs it, only benefits.

    Coco is great (better than soil) if you know how to use it properly. Properly grown plants grow twice as fast in coco, compared to soil. More frequent watering/feeding = faster growth rate, can't do this in soil. I switched from soil to coco and has never looked back.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    speero78, Cold$moke and smokebros like this.

    CB7guy Well-Known Member

    man you should check out "how to harest a pound every 3 weeks,, go to the very end,,, stink bud switched over to coco and loves it more than areoponics,, read a little and ask him some Q's,,, he's still supporting his thread 10years later!!

    baxbax Member

    I feed urea nitrogen which I know it's organic but plants can use it even I had N toxicity after doing urea and this show me u can also use organic fert with coco but you want to add source of beneficial bacteria to break them down for plants but urea decompose fast , if you want go with organic coco go to nutrients line they are organic its hesi tnt bottle is for coco and soil and contain urea as nitrogen source and other organics stuff is in it , cheap and usually available at every country . just sure do not mix coco with other soil because you don't know what ph is best when mixed with unknown substrate , coco best ph is 5.8 but it's safe and usual to mix perlite with coco . gl

    Cold$moke Well-Known Member

    Cut your coco next time with perlite

    Its a doulde edge sword as it stays wet whennthe plant is young but whennthe plant is slammin water every day youll wish you didnt cut it lol.

    I liked a ph of 6 when i was running coco.

    I used botanicare and gh and advanced coco products all worked finenbut the botanicare tasted better lol

    Give em a flush then give rhem lite strength nutrients at a ph of 6 untill they bounce back
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    smokebros Well-Known Member

    I can't upvote this enough, this dude made some very good points.

    Coco is inert, which means organic slow release nutrients aren't going to help you right now. Coco may look a lot like dirt, but it's not.

    Honestly all you need as a good salt based fertilizer, some calmag and some bacteria...

    You'll also need a PH pen and EC pen.

    Kind of curious why you have 4K of lights setup but went in half-cocked with the coco & nutrients.. but I'm not here to cast judgement, just trying to help.

    With coco you should water with nutrients every time you water. Your water PH should always be between 5.8 - 6.2. And you should always water enough to get some runoff with coco.

    If I'm in veg and I'm using clean RO water, here's what my mix would be...

    150PPM calmag (i.e. calimagic)
    350PPM base nutrients (i.e. dyna grow foliage pro, canna coco A&B, megacrop, etc).
    + bacteria. I use Recharge but you can use great white, orca, and several others.
    speero78 and 6ixtynin9 like this.

    smokebros Well-Known Member

    These are my GDP clones that just got flipped two days ago. They're in a DIY flood and drain table with canna coco A&B, calimagic, and hydroguard. Res is sitting right around 550PPM and 6.0PH. You CAN have good results with coco.

    speero78 likes this.

    Cold$moke Well-Known Member

    ^agree i grew lots of fire with coco.
    Loved it but hated it as well.

    So much easier just to flush old nutes out in the gardens

    Fucking coco and fungus gnats !
    i keep going back to it for seeds but i finally switched to rockwool for seeds lol

    smokebros Well-Known Member

    So much bad information in this post, lol. PH from 5.8 - 8.3 in coco is generally advised as a no no. 8.3PH? WTF are you smoking bro?
    6ixtynin9 likes this.

    Cold$moke Well-Known Member

    I think.he was just telling the op that he was at a way high ph

    He said 5.8

    The op was at 8+ lol

    smokebros Well-Known Member

    lol gotcha.

    speero78 Well-Known Member

    I am grateful for putting the time to teach me something valuable about coco.
    I had no clue that coco needed a different approach.
    Our market here have no clue how to work with it. (imagine the shop that sold it to me didnt even tell me jack ass, no cleaning or what so ever. and after i soaked them coco coir block with water. the ppm was around 1900 ppm etc dont ask...
    anyhow now i know. i am going to give it a try.
    but before i received a reply.
    i had to make some measures. so i reported them all, with another mixture of 6 parts soil and 2 parts coco 2 parts Perlite. they are slowly getting better color is back and the leaf dying speed stopped. and feeding with 6.5PH and low ppm. is that ok ? with that mixture.?

    because i feel they are not liking it much and are slow relative to what i am used to? whats up with the red stems all over. and its not genetic. they where green before meg you think ?

    thank god i took some clones before and some healthy mothers but of course a soil coco mixture.
    ill post some pics. i still have some issues. trying to fix.

    i will try half of them with coco. the way you directed and see. thanks a million

    this is the clone setup

    [​IMG] mothers

    [​IMG] close up of Tangerine dream

    [​IMG] clones

    [​IMG] lower part T.Dream

    [​IMG] White W
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018

    speero78 Well-Known Member

    i think my Ph is causing some stress. although i am always checking it...

    - 4 mothers from seed and clones taken from them. (2 x Mazar el sherif, 1 x White W, 1xTangerine dream

    - I have my mothers and clones in a 60 x 60 cm. with some outdoor LED light. not grow lights or anything fancy.

    - 3 other spaces with rotational light system where i veg and flower. with 4 x 400 watts mix of MH and Sodium in each space.

    - I have recently transplanted them in bigger pots with a mix of 6 parts potting soil/ 2 p coco coir/ 2 Perlite. they were growing then they stopped. looked up all possible leaf indications. i can t find anything.

    - PH 6.5 measuring every watering.

    - Feeding low ppm like 150 ppm in addition to the drinking water ppm. so total 300 ppm.

    another picture.


    speero78 Well-Known Member

    i agree, great points and from you as well, lovely plants brother thank you for sharing.
    You mention salt based nutrients cal mag and bacteria.
    where i live there is not much organic liquid fertilizers.
    BUT i am shipping the following i hope i can use in coco as u mentioned can you tell me if they will do the job.

    [​IMG] salt base nut

    [​IMG] bacteria

    should i be using cal mag if i am using mineral water with 100 ppm? and if yes below is what i have available is it ok ?
    they only sell this 12% nitrogen 15 % cal 7.5% mag liquid can use it and how much ppms? maybe to give them a boost? in the veg stage.

    Also as u can see allot of red stems. could that be cal meg deficiency or nitrogen ?

    speero78 Well-Known Member

    Kind of curious why you have 4K of lights setup but went in half-cocked with the coco & nutrients.. but I'm not here to cast judgement, just trying to help.

    Im sorry didnt get that part? what do u mean half - cocked ? :) and about that well coco world i had no clue. i have done great with soil. but the guy never mentioned all that you did.

    previous soil crop:


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