Molasses?

techhead420 said:

Bottom line, you people have not been able to back up your claims with a peer reviewed white paper that molasses, sugar or carbs have any positive benefit for plants. Yup, molasses has some nutes that can be a benefit for plants

Click to expand...

NO benefits or YES benefits?

You are contradicting yourself... and you don't have to be rude... I understand if you are frustrated but there is no need to be rude about this, it only makes your argument weaker, by forcing those that could learn something to close there ears to your word of wisdom....

With open debate comes truth...

I am only trying to get to the bottom of this, call me what ever, I don't care I will try to remain calm. I am not so closed minded that I can't learn something new or look at a subject from more than one side OR ADMIT I AM WRONG, once again I AM NEW that is why I posted this originally. I have asked repeatedly for you to simply answer my question as to WHY YOU FEEL THIS WAY? What facts have lead you to believe this way....

I don't care what everyone can't prove or what they claim; that is not what is being asked of you, once again maybe this will be more clear...

What is so simple and clear to you that is NOT clear to me and most of these people on this subject that makes you so insistent that you have the correct idea behind this and others do not? Botany 101 professor please...

I mean it's not like you have actually tried it, why not? A $5 experiment on one of your many grows to find out for sure, doesn't sound all that hard....

techhead420 said:

Look Einstein, these people are making a claim that they are not backing up and they have a financial incentive (I'm still laughing about that "financial speculation" reference. Wow man... just wow) to make this claim. What are they going to do, come out and say we have this great product but there is not a shred of proof to back our claim up.

Click to expand...

I thought you would understand, sorry. Here let me explain for you:

You said "It says "can work" not "will work" and is nothing but a money driven speculation and not a "theory""


In other words you are saying that they are making claims knowing that they risk being proven wrong and there corp reputation tarnished along with the risk people will stop purchasing their product and put them out of business for the uncertain reward of people purchasing their product on an unproven claim.... rather than the possibility that they have somehow paid some research firm or had someone that has done some kind of small experiment to support or come up with a theory for their claim?

Starting to wrap you mind around the definition...

Once again I politely ask you a question just like I did in the first place (I even acknowledged that #1 I don't know and #2 I would like to know) and this is met with avoidance and name calling... you taking a play out the political campaign of both the Dem's and Rep's?

If you were to take a step back or better yet, don't tell a friend anything about this debate and ask them to read this post and comment on the behavior of your screen name... Let me help you with how it seems from my prospective, you are someone who just likes to disbelieve just because others believe. I mean most normal, intelligent, rational people don't have to resort to these tactic's if they truly believed they were right, they would simply answer the question.

I mean I think I have explained why I think it could work, they may be wrong and I am OK with that, I just need to understand why I shouldn't believe this way... I have seen other posts from you, you seem to have knowledge in this field and seem to have studied this subject far more extensively than I have. I have only been asking for your help in understanding why, I don't see why this is so difficult to explain??? Thank God we are not debating the shape of the World, I mean I could be hanging out with all kinds of people that have influenced me into a belief the world is flat and you could be screaming at the top of your lung everyone is wrong and calling people names and belittle them but that doesn't influence them into learning why the earth is not flat.....

Am I wrong people?

techhead420 said:

In terms of molasses, how do you know that the sugars aren't throwing off the osmatic pressure in the root zone making uptake of nutrients more difficult?


BTW Einstein, companies don't care if they get busted out for making bad claims, there's plenty of suckers out there.

Click to expand...

If the first item is true or possible what would cause people to see improved growth that they say they have EXPERIENCED? Just wondering the possibilities that COULD lead to this.


I didn't say the companies cared, I offered up a reason for my 'interpretation' of what you said...

Man, you really need to read these posts a bit more thoroughly before posting! I mean I have been a little stoned when posting but at least I answer your questions without insults and my cut and paste jobs you like, are so that I can make sure to respond to YOUR questions as best as I can and to make sure there is little misinterpretation, but I can't help it if you are unable to understand this.


I mean shit why so hostile about this subject or my desire to get a better understanding?

Mind if I ask what type of engineering you are involved in? Just curious, I used to study Aerospace Engineering for a few years. Ended up going a different route though.

specialkayme said:

Mind if I ask what type of engineering you are involved in? Just curious, I used to study Aerospace Engineering for a few years. Ended up going a different route though.

Click to expand...

Electronics Engineer specializing in robotics research and development.

techhead420 said:

Why so rude? Because some crackpot is making claims that he can not support. This does a disservice to the online community and is how these faulty urban laegends get started. As an engineer (i.e. scientist), I do not respect crackpots.

I have ask you to back up your claim that molasses has been shown to be beneficial to any plant. You have decided to redirect the debate to your poor ego playing the victim card. Pathetic.

Click to expand...

Have you read my posts? Did you even notice I gave you a + rep for posting your original post, I thought it would help me understand a different perspective, boy was I wrong! When have I said IT WORKS? From my very first post, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and have asked you to explain why you are of this opinion SO I CAN UNDERSTAND instead of being a blind sheep and believing THE FIRST PERSON TO COME ALONG DISPUTING SOMETHING, so far almost 3 pages later you OFFER NOTHING BUT INSULTS AND STILL AVOID EXPLAINING WHY YOU FEEL THIS WAY... (I really haven't even ask for PROOF just an explanation, why so hard to provide, I just don't get it)

So much for for giving respect before it is given..... YOU ARE THE REASON people have such problems with this...

I have not made a claim, hell, I have even left open the possibility that my understanding may not be correct!!! I have offered up reasons why I 'think it COULD work'; I have tried to explain why I 'think' others have made claims based on what they have posted and I have explained why I believe it makes sense to me... NEVER MADE A CLAIM IT WORKS.... You started throwing insults out from your first response to me OVER the semantics of the verbiage I used, then when I explained why I used it you insult me again, I even offered up a peace offering by admitting I was mistaken and I get more insults...

My ego is not driven by your comments, hell, I've been called worse and some of it could be true... I haven't even suggested you apologize, only refrain from insults. But I sure do wish you would just get off your high horse for a few minutes and help a newb out!!! I am just trying to keep this as an adult conversation and trying to keep this on point, instead of trying to resort to insults and distractions to digress from the original question that you have never answered...

Here is my original post to you again, so you can reference it BEFORE you continue with you insults, I have tried to give you an opportunity to both help me and everyone else understand why it won't work AND even asked you for an alternative solution in the very next post (yes one more of your favorite cut and paste jobs):







Interesting opinion, thanks for posting. This is the first argument AGAINST Molasses in this thread so far. Can you please provide more info as to why you have formed this opinion. I know you feel it is a waste because you have found that sugars/carbs are not able to be uploaded from the plant roots, how did you come to this conclusion? I mean in addition to your reason being that manufactures don't get back to you with there studies, and no white papers.. (have to admit, not sure what you mean). I'm fairly new and still very open-minded to issues like this and I like to have both sides of the issue so I can come to a conclusion with at least a little info from both pro's and con's.

So what you are saying rebuts what people are saying about the PLANT utilizing carbs as 'sir smokesalot' put it:

exactly, its is a carb loader...

...and it provides mag, cal and iron as well as K. it will help the buds to be denser and more resinous too. but even if it didnt bulk up the plant it is still a great supplement. i use blackstrap but may try regular unsulfered next time[/i]

It also mentioned that Molasses provides additional nutrients; wouldn't these be available in a form that the plant could use even if the plant couldn't use the sugars?


Now if the plant doesn't utilize these sugars/carbs/nutrients what you say would make sense, especially if your intent was to feed the plant, but what about this theory:

"For gardeners the sweet syrup can work as a carbohydrate source to feed and stimulate microorganisms. And, because molasses (average NPK 1-0-5) contains potash, sulfur, and many trace minerals, it can serve as a nutritious soil amendment. Molasses is also an excellent chelating agent."

If the above statement is true then wouldn't it still be beneficial for the plant to enrich the soil with extra sugars and carbs, to get the various microorganisms fed and stimulated to help rid your roots of fungi, rot and other root issues? Wouldn't this help to make your roots stronger and better able to upload nutrients that the flowers are needing from your soil? I say this because it seems like when it comes to healthy roots, microorganisms are a popular ingredient to add in with your nutrients. The guy at the Hydro shop showed me an example of this in a bottle he sells for like $129!!!



Don't take this the wrong way, I would be posting a very similar post if the large majority of posts were con and your message was the ONLY one that was pro to using Molasses, you know what I mean?

Besides, sounds like there are a few posters that have done side by side comparo's and it is the reason they like using it... Tell me about your side by side, please

As far as 'white papers' I believe he is refering to peer reviewed, academic style research papers. The kind that are the basis behind people's thesis papers throughout college, graduate school, and the like. The only problem that I see with coming up with 'white papers' about any of the related topics is 1. most researchers arn't studying the affects of anything on marijuana, 2. most governments restrict such research from happening in the first place, but most importantly 3. most of us don't have access to Lexus Nexus, or another database that would contain such material. Most people on here are stoners, newbs, and old time growers (no offense, I'm in there too). Not to claim that there arn't any intelligent individuals on riu, just that many of them don't have access to peer reviewed articles about the cultivation of marijuana, let alone papers about botany in general.

That being what it is, I'm just wondering what your basis for disputing this claim is techhead? Have you tryed it and failed? Have you read about it and the articles said it didn't work? Do you have any doccumentation to support a claim that it doesn't work? Or are you claiming that by there being no doccumentation that it DOES work leads to the logical conclusion that it DOES NOT work?

Not trying to attack, just wondering.

Other than that I think this thread has mainly evolved into techhead and ta2drvn arguing, neither adding very contributing evidence, and occasionally someone like myself chiming in only to be dismissed as part of the peanut gallery. No offense guys, I'm not contributing much either, just saying. So I would suggest for both of you to continue your arguing in pm form, so everyone else doesn't need to read it, and feel free to come back when you have something constructive to add. I just don't really feel like reading 7 more pages of bickering before we get to the bottom of this, but maybe that's just the ramblings of a stoner.

Just my opinion. Don't like it? Then don't take it.

You are right, seems we have gotten as far as we will on this subject, it has been 3 pages more than it should have, to get nothing.

Sorry I couldn't get more info as to why it doesn't work... The rest of it is really pretty petty and seems like it will just continue back and forth with no new info, starting to seem pretty pointless if nothing new will come of it... I tried to get the info, sorry guys.

Since you asked the questions, maybe Tech will be more willing to give you the answers, seems he is just unwilling to provide because I am asking...

For those interested in the answer to why Tech feels the way he does:

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/78158-adding-sugur-your-water-5.html

"Quote:
Originally Posted by O4aUsErNaMe
so is nature.

but it is pretty hard to boost co2 when you grow outdoors,
plus the fact that most of the carbs in the ground have already been burnt of in the growing of the plant.
so the molasses is just an efficient way to boost the carb level at the very moment the plant needs it the most."


Tech's response:

Still, is there any empirical evidence, scientific study etc that demonstrates that the sugar molecule can actually be taken up by the root system. I tried doing a google search and I found nothing besides marketing hype and anecdotes. This strikes me as just another urban legend. At no time in my botany classes, for example, was it ever mentioned that any thing besides various mineral salts, even then only in ionic form, can be taken up and transported via the plants xylem.

I've found not one shred of evidence to support this technique.





Man this is all I asked for in the first place.... Now I understand, it make sense why you feel this way..

this is a cool article on molasses by the 3 little birds...a group of growers out of humboldt

The 3LB’s Molasses Manual - A Marijuana Growers Guide To Soil Sweeteners

damn thats a long article i'm way to high to read all that but good post

There is no evidence that molasses, sugar or carbs can be taken up by ANY plant. If you would bother reading through my posts you'll see that I was making that point and NOT just for pot. The only claim that I've made is that there is no science to support these claims. My claim is EASILY falsifiable, just show a white paper that shows that molasses, sugar of carbs has been demonstrated to show an improvement in growth in ANY plant. Absense of proof is not evidence. Anecdotes, like provided on the above link, are not evidence.

You don't need a specialized search engine to find white papers, most os the abstracts at least can be found on google. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim and so far you people haven't shown a shred of proof. A crackpot is a person who makes a claim that they can't back up. I can back up my claim because it's easily falsifiable, why don't you people use a little bit of critical thinking and back up your claim.

techhead420 said:

Absense of proof is not evidence. Anecdotes, like provided on the above link, are not evidence.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim and so far you people haven't shown a shred of proof. A crackpot is a person who makes a claim that they can't back up. I can back up my claim because it's easily falsifiable, why don't you people use a little bit of critical thinking and back up your claim.

Click to expand...

So, would you care to back up your claim? By your own standards? You claim that molasses has NO effect on ANY plant. So far you havn't backed it up, just made more claims. Where is your evidence?

techhead420 said:

Jesus Christ, I'm dealing with a bunch of Einsteins here....this is the problem when a person with actual formal scientific training tries to debate laymen who have no understanding of the scientific method.

I said there is no science to back up the claim. I said that my claim, which is that there is no evidence to back up that molasses etc has any benefit, is falsifiable, which it is, just show one scientific link for ANY plant.

Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click to expand...

First, please don't insult me. I'm not trying to insult you, just asking you to follow YOUR OWN STANDARDS. Which you have yet again failed to do.

Second, you have no idea who I am, what level of education I have, what formal training I have, or anything about me.

Lastly, I'll offer you the same advice I did a few pages ago.

specialkayme said:

While I greatly appreciate your opinion, and thank you for your contribution, I think now would be a great time for you to step down from your soap box techhead, and join the rest of the world with their feet on the ground. No one offered a source to back up their claim, which would leave it as a claim, not fact. But I would like to remind you that you have offered no shred of 'peer reviewed white paper' that offers a claim that molasses has NO effect on a plant, or that it has a NEGATIVE effect. Untill you can live up to your own standards, perhaps you should worry less about everyone else.
That being said, please stop calling people 'crackpots', 'bullshit', and 'Einstein'. If you disagree with what they have to say, make your claim and then wait for a rebutal. Demanding evidence from everyone else, and then claiming that their lack of evidence is your evidence against the claim is hardly a good tactic for disproving a claim.

Click to expand...

You need to get off your high horse, thinking you are an amazing scientist, demanding evidence from everyone else and providing none. That being said, I do not wish to argue with you, I am only asking for facts and evidence, all of which you respond with none and insult me back. So go ahead and insult me again if you like, but I don't really think it will be worth your time to type it, or mine to read it, unless you actually offer some EVIDENCE.

specialkayme said:

I do not wish to argue with you, I am only asking for facts and evidence, all of which you respond with none and insult me back. So go ahead and insult me again if you like, but I don't really think it will be worth your time to type it, or mine to read it, unless you actually offer some EVIDENCE.

Click to expand...

Thanks Techhead

This isn't saying anything about roots up taking but it says this about molasses:

'In summary, these studies showed that the low-cost soy molasses is suitable for use in the production of microbial biosurfactants. With further process optimization to improve the yields, it is expected that the production cost of these biosurfactants could be lowered by the use of this agro-based feedstock.'

ARS | Publication request: PRODUCTION OF MICROBIAL BIOSURFACTANTS FROM SOY MOLASSES

Another link I found on Molasses (not saying they support anything just info if you want more info.....)

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/61/1/165.pdf

in case like me you were not sure what Alcaligenes eutrophus is:

Alcaligenes eutrophus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But don't you see? No carbohydrate can help plants until science first PROVES that it can and the proper documentation is submitted, peer-reviewed, and published.

After all, we all know that the world was in fact flat until it was conclusively proven to be round and the proper white papers published. If you'd tried to circumnavigate the globe without the proper documentation prior to that, you'd have fallen right off the edge of the world.

Techhead, I know where you're coming from. I dislike bad scientific method as much as the next educated man. However, being an ass is bad for science.

If you are right, being a flaming jerkwad is unnecessary. The truth withstands scrutiny so all that is necessary to prove oneself right is calm, rational scrutiny. Getting emotional and calling people names are the tools of those who lack the ability to prove themselves right.

But here's the thing: the only thing you can hope to prove is that no one has formally conducted an experiment on the interaction of carbohydrates and plants, published the results, and had it peer-reviewed. (I'm assuming here, that this is true. In point of fact, I do not and cannot know such a thing to be true without first checking every single such document known to exist.)

I have never used molasses myself. I have, however, used a carbohydrate supplement (Carboload) and have absolutely no doubts in my mind as to whether or not it works. It does. I know this to be true. Precisely how and why it works is something on which I cannot authoritatively speak. Like my mom - she couldn't tell you why her car runs, but she has no doubt that it does because she has observed it to be so.

Neither she nor I have conducted any research or published any documents to prove this to be true. Neither case is made more or less true by the presence or absence of such documents.

None of us are Wile E. Coyote. We do not need to have studied gravity in order to fall. Gravity works perfectly well for both the Physics major and ignorant rock alike.

Haha, I love your sense of humor hooked.on.ponics

techhead420 said:

No, I haven't tried molasses.

Click to expand...

That's what I thought, Thank you, move along.....nothing to see here.