Lunar planting

gogrow said:

as i didnt start this thread, i just found the topic interesting. im not telling anyone to do thier planting by this, but i figured the person who originally posted this wasnt going to elaborate, so i looked around and shared some interesting things i found on the subject. never said anything about the validity/fallacy of these claims. as far as critical thinking, i thought i was doing that when i started to think about what effect the moon's gravitational pull may possible have on plants. sorry if i offended you with my "pseudo-science"

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i wasn't directing those comments at you. The comments were directed at the folks who run those sites. I'm glad you contributed those URLs to the thread. I welcome you to join me in my fight against pseudo-science!

I had an old hippie tell me once "The moon affects the tides. Your body is 80% water don't think the moon dosent affect you too."

Early said:

I had an old hippie tell me once "The moon affects the tides. Your body is 80% water don't think the moon dosent affect you too."

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Hi Early, thanks for your contribution. I mean no offense but I will refute this with the same evidence presented above...


The same principal as above - if we were floating out in space and the moon was the closest, largest thing to us, then lunar gravitational force would affect us. However, because Earth's gravitational force is much, much stronger than the moon (because of size and proximity) any affect from lunar gravity is negligible at best.

No offense to the old hippie, but I'll take the word of folks who study physics and astrophysics (who are often older hippies themselves). Again, if the moon's gravity were capable of tugging on the small amount of water encased in us (compared with the ocean's mass), then rain would not fall down, sinks wouldn't drain, and when we pee it would be suspended in mid-air. Note that only the largest rivers (Amazon, Nile, etc..) are affected by tides - small rivers and streams and most tellingly - lakes are not affected by lunar gravity.

Now could the moon be affecting us on a molecular or atom-by-atom level that isn't observable? I suppose it could be but if we can't observe any affect (which we can't) then there probably isn't any affect. There are no tides in our tummy.

More evidence would be the fact that Jupiter, by far the largest planet with the most potent gravitational force in our solar system, does not have any affect on Earth's tides. The same principal (mass and distance) is the reason why. Jupiter is too far away for its gravity to affect us.

Also note the old wives tale about more crimes, violence, other catastrophes occurring during full moon are also false. I realize I sound priggish, but I am very interested and fascinated by how nature and our minds work. Myths, legends, and misconceptions are of special interest to me. I am also keen on understanding why we (humans) believe strange and sometimes wonderful things with no evidence whatsoever and whether these beliefs are collectively good or bad - or a mixed bag.

Anyway, I saved the best for last ... the maths or proof:
Newton's inverse square principal (modern formula)
F = GMm/r2
Force (F) is equal to the Gravity constant (G) times the product of both objects masses (Mm) divided by the distance between the two bodies squared (r2)

or even simpler version: F = ma
Force (F) is equal to mass (m) times acceleration (a)

any way you slice it - force is proportional to mass.

One thing is for certain; you can't always quantify everything in nature, especially when it comes to life forces. To see the effect of a full moon on humankind, all you have to do is ask someone that works in the emergency room or in law enforcement. I have a sleep disorder that kicks in big time when the moon is full, and before anyone says it's psychomatic, I don't pay attention to the moon's phases; I don't have to because when I can't go to sleep I know it must be a full moon and I check and sure enough it is. I think there is a lot that we don't know when it comes to lunar science. I'm not one to debase the importance of impiricle science; I believe in true science as much as anyone but I also know there are unseen forces at work that we know little or nothing about. IMHO scientists can't afford to be arrogant; only through an open mind can we truly advance.

potpimp said:

One thing is for certain; you can't always quantify everything in nature, especially when it comes to life forces. To see the effect of a full moon on humankind, all you have to do is ask someone that works in the emergency room or in law enforcement. I have a sleep disorder that kicks in big time when the moon is full, and before anyone says it's psychomatic, I don't pay attention to the moon's phases; I don't have to because when I can't go to sleep I know it must be a full moon and I check and sure enough it is. I think there is a lot that we don't know when it comes to lunar science. I'm not one to debase the importance of impiricle science; I believe in true science as much as anyone but I also know there are unseen forces at work that we know little or nothing about. IMHO scientists can't afford to be arrogant; only through an open mind can we truly advance.

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There are unseen but not invisible forces at work. Science does not know everything and it is certainly possible that "something" may be discovered that upsets some basic scientific principals. But the more we use those principals as a base to form new principals and the new principals continue to "work" then the likelihood of something science shattering (like something para/peri-normal) occurring lessens.

Just like growing weed. We have our basic principals, and while LEDs or some new thing may change the way we grow, the basics of light, food, water, etc... isn't going away. And any new lighting would just be building on what we already know. And while it is possible, it is unlikely that we will ever be able to grow weed in complete darkness without water. Same goes for scientific principals - we may discover some wild things that we never thought possible but chances are good the theory of gravity isn't going anywhere soon. Though relativity certainly gave it a thump on the head! So i readily admit the fallibility of science but I think it is the best too we've got so I try to stick to it whenever possible.

So here goes...

First, I don't doubt you have a sleep disorder that is not psychosomatic. I do however doubt the full moon is causing or even aggravating your sleep disorder (unless it has something to do with extra moonlight keeping you awake but i don't think that is the case). I would also point out that one person's experience is not statistically significant and anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence.

Second, if the full moon was truly the cause (or even an aggravator) of your sleep disorder then you could count on a restless night every 28 days. I would also remind you that the moon is full or near full for several nights so you can expect at least 3-5 days of restless sleep as the full moon waxes and then wanes. Unless your sleep disorder is occurring every 28 days, or with the lunar cycle, then I would call the nights you get up when there is a full moon, coincidence and nothing more.

I think what is actually happening is the "whatever-i'm-doing-at-the-time" syndrome. For example: if i have a scratchy throat and take some medicine (i think echanasia is all the rage now) and i feel better, i am going to credit the medicine REGARDLESS if it actually helped or not. After it happens once, then the placebo effect can take over and every time the medicine "cures" me, it reenforces my belief about the medicine and my mind dismisses all the times i took it and still got sick. It is the same principal behind folks who believe in psychics who are just "cold-reading". The folks who believe someone can be psychic tends to embrace and remember the "hits" and dismisses the psychic "misses". They also fill in gaps and otherwise aid and encourage the psychic. It is called confirmation bias.

And while I haven't personally conducted any studies regarding the "full-moon madness" stories typical of cops and emergency rooms, many folks have.

Here is a short list of items that the full moon is supposed to influence.

-the homicide rate
-traffic accidents
-crisis calls to police or fire stations
-domestic violence
-births of babies
-suicide
-major disasters
-casino payout rates
-assassinations
-kidnappings
-aggression by professional hockey players
-violence in prisons
-psychiatric admissions [one study found admissions were lowest during a full moon]
-agitated behavior by nursing home residents
-assaults
-gunshot wounds
-stabbings
-emergency room admissions
-behavioral outbursts of psychologically challenged rural adults
-alcoholism
-sleep walking
-epilepsy

There have been numerous studies and all have failed to show a reliable and significant correlation (i.e., one not likely due to chance) between the full moon, or any other phase of the moon, and each of the preceding. And while cops and emergency room personnel will swear up and down that the full-moon does cause more problems, they are mistaken. Confirmation bias is again at work here.

There is no evidence.... sorry. That may sound arrogant, but I say it humbly.

Damn confirmation bias; it'll getcha everytime. Thanks for clearing something up I've believed for a long time. It does make sence.

potpimp said:

Damn confirmation bias; it'll getcha everytime. Thanks for clearing something up I've believed for a long time. It does make sence.

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i find this stuff very fascinating. There is a lot of phenomena besides confirmation bias that colors the way we view the world. Pareidolia is another interesting subject. That is the psychological phenomena that causes us to see faces in things (like the Virgin Mary toast and the face on Mars). It also is what allows us to hear words in backwards recordings of select songs.

If you are interested, here is a video of Michael Shermer (head's up skeptic.com) doing a demo with back-masking and Led Zeppelin lyrics...

LiveLeak.com - Dr. Michael Shermer discusses Stairway to Heaven ( TED conference )