Lucas Formula Recipe from Scratch "Really"
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fatman7574
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That is pretty much a loaded question that is bound to cause a ruckus. Some growers they say an inert media simply mean that any medium that is not organic is and therefore generally mean the following medias are nonorganic and therefore inert.
- Water
- Moss
- Saw dust
- vermiculite
- Rockwool
- lava rock
- pop clay or HEC
- perlite
- Gravel
- marbles/bio balls/jacks/shredded plastic/rubber mulch
- Air
Moss is for amateur growers because it is the most forgiving.
Rockwool is mainly for graduated growers since it is the most temperamental.
Pop clay or HEC is for advanced growers and needs nutrient sprinklers or drips, or better yet flood and drain..
Lava rock is not forgiving and can contain toxic minerals from its volcanic origin. It has sharp edges that are not kind to the roots. Gravel is used instead.
Hydroton we already discussed.
Basically the mediums I would recommend in order from worse choice to best are in the list above. Worse at the top and best at the bottom. IMHO an inert hydroponic medium should have a zero CEC, be non absorbent, non adsorbent, have no nutritional valve, have no buffering capacity, be nonbacteria friendly, easily disinfectable and allow for plenty of oxygen in the gaseous form. The only medium that fits all those requirements for a good medium is air. The only physical mediums that come close that will also support a plant physically and are inert mediums as long as they are not porous are some marbles/bio balls/jacks/shredded plastic/rubber mulch
Old Fat Dude
Member
Why is water the worst growing medium ?
fatman7574
New Member
It causes the most difficulties of nearly all the medias. It is not even hydroponic media. It is aqua culture. In reality the only good nutrient method for real hydroponics is drain to waste. It is not newbie friendly though as it requires the greatest knowledge about nutrient formulation and nutrient up take unless you can afford to throw away a lot of fertilizer. Each run of nutrients through a hydro system strips nutrients and disrupts the ion charge balance, with your roots actually in the water your constantly adding organics to the water way above and beyond that added by any other methods. You are basically creating a soup of organic wastes and bacteria. Your using up buffers just as soon as they are created. You are constantly having to deal with temperature issues above and beyond the need to do so in any other type of system. You can not use Chlorine or H2O2 effectively with a aqua culture system meaning your dependent on organic sullpements so as to have natural bacteria and enzymes. Soo basically u youtr ending up with a mix of organic and inorganic. Pretty much a step abckward unless you like having a waste water treatment system fora nutrient reservoir. You have greater issues with a too high humidities and therefore reduced transpiration. The list even goes on and on.
sherriberry
New Member
alright fatman, so where do i go to buy this stuff... these ingredients? Is there a way to not have to buy it in bulk but rather in small enough quantities to grow 20 plants through a single grow?
i want to get my feet wet with this stuff, but dont know where to start?
i want to get my feet wet with this stuff, but dont know where to start?
fatman7574
New Member
That depends where you are located.
A simple place to buy them on line if your in the Midwest or the North East is Crop King. It sells retail in pounds and 5 pound quantities except the Calcium Nitrate which is very cheap so only sold in 50 pound bags. The South East (Florida) area should have plenty of hydro and green house suppliers as should California and the South West. Both of which are heavy into hydro, therefore having many hydro and greenhouse suppliers.
Crop King: http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=264&zenid=a4eb036a353fc794740bdb5378a85a2b
Mcgician
Well-Known Member
I really hate to sound like a cheerleader again fatman, but damn this thread is chock full of information anyone with a conscious eye for detail would be sorely mistaken for having skipped over. Thanks once again for taking the time to educate many of us, and best of luck to you and your crops!
potpimp
Sector 5 Moderator
Man I am totally there with you on that. I just read the whole thing from the beginning. Fatman is not just throwing out something he found online; he is sharing his *knowledge*, which is obviously enormous.I really hate to sound like a cheerleader again fatman, but damn this thread is chock full of information anyone with a conscious eye for detail would be sorely mistaken for having skipped over. Thanks once again for taking the time to educate many of us, and best of luck to you and your crops!
I was suckered into buying about $500 worth of the AN garbage, having watched the Nutrient Challenge video. I was doing both hydro (NTF) and a soil grow in the same grow room and had better results with the soil grow than the hydro using the AN nutes. Even though I took chemistry in college (4.0), I did not like being forced into being a chemist when mixing up the AN junk. I got the feeling all along that there was a lot of smoke and mirrors behind pipetting nutes, can't mix this with that, add this one first then that then this one, etc. It took me a couple of hours a week and made my place smell really strong - not from the pot but from the nutes.
I switched to a simple line (Ionic) and got even better results with it. I'm not using Dutch Master and am having good results.
I don't know about the rest of you guys but Fatman really deserves to feel the love; I can't imagine how much it would have cost us to hire this propeller head to do private consulting!! None of us could afford him, LOL. If you have not done so, add to his reputation if you have benefited from this thread.
RyanTheRhino
Well-Known Member
You know I never thought to make my own nutes,
Anyone with a basic knowledge of chemistry can do it, all u need to know is "molarity" found in the "stoichiometry" section of chem to make sure u have the solution to the right concentration.
May I ask where u found the chemicals? I have never been able to find a chemistry store.
muhahaha.. The things I would do with a little 10 M HCl or H2SO4.....
Acids are amazing
Oh yea and guys how did you think the pioneers of hydroponics got ferts....??? There were no stores to go to only chemicals
And a hint of advice
You have to mix the chemicals in a specific order!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
say you mix agent "A" +agent "C" you would get product="AC"
Now if the bonds between "AC" are greater than "A" to "B" the mixture will remain "AC +B" floating around
This will lock out the A and C chemicals
Because
If A had a "+" charge and C had a "2-" charge the product would be neutral "A2C" with no charge
So if u wanted all the agents in there to bond together
ADD
A+ to B+ = A+, B+ (some of them will bond due to other forces but that bond wont be stronger than the (+/-) attraction when u add C)
THEN add, (A+, B+) to (C 2- ) to = 2CAB
You have to think about this when you add any more chemicals
You have to find out if chemical "D" will bond with compound "CAB" or will u need to add it at a different time
That my friend is why chemists get paid a lot of money
if u have the background to check all of these chemicals before mixing go ahead and make yourself some cheap just as good as the manufactures ferts, but if not I would not recommend it without looking up "stoichiometry" first.
Anyone with a basic knowledge of chemistry can do it, all u need to know is "molarity" found in the "stoichiometry" section of chem to make sure u have the solution to the right concentration.
May I ask where u found the chemicals? I have never been able to find a chemistry store.
muhahaha.. The things I would do with a little 10 M HCl or H2SO4.....
Acids are amazing
Oh yea and guys how did you think the pioneers of hydroponics got ferts....??? There were no stores to go to only chemicals
And a hint of advice
You have to mix the chemicals in a specific order!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
say you mix agent "A" +agent "C" you would get product="AC"
Now if the bonds between "AC" are greater than "A" to "B" the mixture will remain "AC +B" floating around
This will lock out the A and C chemicals
Because
If A had a "+" charge and C had a "2-" charge the product would be neutral "A2C" with no charge
So if u wanted all the agents in there to bond together
ADD
A+ to B+ = A+, B+ (some of them will bond due to other forces but that bond wont be stronger than the (+/-) attraction when u add C)
THEN add, (A+, B+) to (C 2- ) to = 2CAB
You have to think about this when you add any more chemicals
You have to find out if chemical "D" will bond with compound "CAB" or will u need to add it at a different time
That my friend is why chemists get paid a lot of money
if u have the background to check all of these chemicals before mixing go ahead and make yourself some cheap just as good as the manufactures ferts, but if not I would not recommend it without looking up "stoichiometry" first.
fatman7574
New Member
You can buy some pretty good fertilizer formulation soft ware now. Makes it real easy to duplicate retail formulations such as GH or AN etc. Then you just make the changes you wish to betterdajust for your growing system and the specif strains and the software spits out the formulas in a two part formula. Theywill even warn you if precipitaes will likely form or if you are above or below normal recommened levels. Or you can just enter in the ppm's you desire or the analysis pecentages. They are starting to become pretty reasonable. Starting at about $150 and running up to abot $2500.
I have 5 different commercial software packages as I was sent test versions before they were put on the market. One of the davantages to being a Professor, lotts of free books and software. I also have some designed by grad students and doctoral candidates.
I seldom calculate formulas with pencil and paper any more unless making formulaswith several differing nitrogen sources or buffers normally used in biology labs. The software packages do have to what they will include in formulations or how many sources of the same branch of nutrients. The nicer ones even allow you to enter the purchase cost of all raw materials and will formulate at the cheapset cost based on you raw material costs.
RyanTheRhino
Well-Known Member
i use Dyna-Gro because im lazy.. works good enough for me.. and no mixing
RyanTheRhino
Well-Known Member
Nice a Professor u do a lot of research or do u just teach? I myself am a Mechanical engineering grad-student w/a minor in chem hoping to get my masters.
I asked if I could help research in my engineering department. They are trying to create a solar powered propulsion system for close space travel (close is relative to our solar system)
It is powered by creating a beam of photons and bending the light beam with a magnet to a receiver that collects the photons and reuses the energy as efficient as possible. By bending the flow of electrons it creates a continuous force pushing in the opposite direction of the electrons displacement creating continuous acceleration.
On earth is dose nothing but bend light but in space our theory believes it will get the craft going pretty well because of the vacuum.
Mcgician
Well-Known Member
Is this one of those "solar sails" you're talking about? Sounds familiar.
And fatman, this should be your new avatar.
fatman7574
New Member
Na., I like short haired headed women not shave headed men. Luckily no histrry off balding in my family tree.
fatman7574
New Member
Old tire rubber has been known to leach a few solvent compounds but mainly they leach cemicals picked up from road travel. Mainly Pertroleum products from the asphalt etc. The way to avoid that is to buy the red or brown rubber chunks instead of the black.
What's the difference, isn't it the same thing just dyed?
fatman7574
New Member
Hey man. I was hoping you could spare a moment to let me know how much sodium silicate you use in
hydroponics? I'm having savage weakness problems and your the only person I've heard of to use it. THANKS!
I use 0.1mM (millimole). A millimole is 0.001 millimole of pure Sodium Sillicate. That is (122*0.0001) = 0.0122 grams. However,there is no such thing as pure sodium silicate being sold. Most is sold ay 70% or 0.7 mole per liter. That means there is (122*0.7)= 85.4 grams per liter in the typical 70% strength sodium Silicate. 85/0. 0122 = 1000/X so, x= (0.0122*1000)/85 = 0.14 ml per quart of nutrient water. There are 3.79 liters per gallon so (0.14*3.79) = 0.53 ml per gallon that is roughly one teaspoon per each 30 gallons of nutrient water as there are 15 ml to a teaspoon.
I only would add it when originally mixing up the nutrients, and then just use it as a pH up untill you cahnge your reservoir. Do not use it everytime you add water for top off. It will raise the pH each time you add it. Your adding 12 mg per liter to a new batch of water. That can raise the pH by as much as 1 full pH point.
As for those wooried an bout sodium levels. 75 ppm is considered the maximum safe level for sodium in hydropinic solutions by many researchers. Adding 0.14 ml per liter means an addition of 5.88 ppm of sodium. Therefore the amount of sodium would be less than 1/12 of the recognized maximum safe level of sodium.
You also need to consider Potassium is a strong antagonist to calcium and magnesium up take. Sodium is not.
hydroponics? I'm having savage weakness problems and your the only person I've heard of to use it. THANKS!
I use 0.1mM (millimole). A millimole is 0.001 millimole of pure Sodium Sillicate. That is (122*0.0001) = 0.0122 grams. However,there is no such thing as pure sodium silicate being sold. Most is sold ay 70% or 0.7 mole per liter. That means there is (122*0.7)= 85.4 grams per liter in the typical 70% strength sodium Silicate. 85/0. 0122 = 1000/X so, x= (0.0122*1000)/85 = 0.14 ml per quart of nutrient water. There are 3.79 liters per gallon so (0.14*3.79) = 0.53 ml per gallon that is roughly one teaspoon per each 30 gallons of nutrient water as there are 15 ml to a teaspoon.
I only would add it when originally mixing up the nutrients, and then just use it as a pH up untill you cahnge your reservoir. Do not use it everytime you add water for top off. It will raise the pH each time you add it. Your adding 12 mg per liter to a new batch of water. That can raise the pH by as much as 1 full pH point.
As for those wooried an bout sodium levels. 75 ppm is considered the maximum safe level for sodium in hydropinic solutions by many researchers. Adding 0.14 ml per liter means an addition of 5.88 ppm of sodium. Therefore the amount of sodium would be less than 1/12 of the recognized maximum safe level of sodium.
You also need to consider Potassium is a strong antagonist to calcium and magnesium up take. Sodium is not.
GrayRoanek
Member
Fatman is my IDOL. Thanks for the recipes and the lead to Grow King. But the recipes don't include trace elements necessary for cannabis. Soil growers probably take them for granted but aero needs to include them in their nutes. I found these sites helpful.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112606773/abstract Zinc required for cannabiis production.
http://www.mii.org/periodic/LifeElement.html List of elements required by SOME organisms.
Along with Silica, I also read that Titanium is required for healthy cannabis production. Note that some of these elements are TOXIC and must be introduced in trace amounts, Parts per Billion, PPB.
So, which do you add to your nutes and in what concentration?
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112606773/abstract Zinc required for cannabiis production.
http://www.mii.org/periodic/LifeElement.html List of elements required by SOME organisms.
Along with Silica, I also read that Titanium is required for healthy cannabis production. Note that some of these elements are TOXIC and must be introduced in trace amounts, Parts per Billion, PPB.
So, which do you add to your nutes and in what concentration?
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