Lighting questions.. Considering LED over hps/mh combo

Where am I · Feb 21, 2014

Oddjob said:
So are you guys admitting or saying that the Chinese led's on Ebay are just as good as a51, hans, apache and clw?

Can I say all "Chinese" panels on ebay are just as good as the a fore mention brands, I would have to say NO. These are reputable companies that make a good product. Yet I also have seen some very innovative DIY grow lights that are much more efficient than a commercially built light. What many people fail to realize is that a lot of companies are just re -sellers that are just advertising and sticking a fancy name on a light with a few minor tweaks to make it theirs. Case in point the whole "secondary lens" for grow lights I believe was actually adopted from the stage lighting where intensity and distance are very desirable. Yet their are also companies out there who use inferior products / components. How many of us actually have a spectrometer to check out what the light is actually producing. If you check out Zepperone on the tube he is very honest and open about his experiences. Have you ever noticed how many grow journals start out and then just seem to end abruptly? When the 5 watt lights came out I was like good more intensity and more power. Yet if you look at the efficiency of most of the panels it is not on par with a 3 watt panel. Will they get better yes they will. If you want to do a deep dive look up Haitz's Law. It is like Moore's Law for computer processors but for LED's. A light built today will be come obsolete in a few years. It is like an automobile in the 50's vs an automobile today... The basic principle is still there underneath it all.... Keep it green.

monkeychief · Feb 21, 2014

I forgot. By all means omit Hans from the list because at $350 for 65w and no fans is a recipe for disappointment. That power will grow your pet Chia pretty well but will fail bad with our girls. You can have at least 440w with the previously mentioned set-up.

Don Styln · Feb 21, 2014

Hey MonkeyChief,

You have really been cranking out some great info. Thanks for all you are sharing.

I can't find the original post, So I will quote you from an e-mail I received...

(4) GEHL X-Grow series 126 x 3w. Each panel will give u 126x3w (six cluster) *1715 umol @ 30cm *, and 885umol @ 60cm, 447umol @ 90cm
This is phenomenal vs. the A51 XGS-190 at 1349 umol@30cm, 675 umol@60cm, and 301unol@90cm, respectively. They are able to pull these numbers using secondary lens. These are identical to a very well known brand-name for little more than 1/3 price. These should pull approx. 270w and I feel this system is the best system given the incredible par readings up to 437umoles at 3" will make it an ideal set-up for all the indoor tree guys to smile about. Please note that if u run the recommended 4 panels, you can afford to use a very aggressive 60degree lens to even focus more light into a smaller footprint that will further increase these incredible readings. This system will give u a total of 1100W+ actual led wattage will easily trump by 2x any of the claimed most powerful unit in the market like the BS Ion, Stealth 1250, BD's biggest mutt, and Lush's new big boy. The crazier thing is it does all this for bout half the price of the above mentioned names. Let me confirm the price with them but they should only be round $250-300/pc.. These guys are one of the major OEM guys making some of and one the best performing and expensive major brand-name. These guys have excellent before and after sales and are very honest in their specs.

I look these up but could not find its core footprint. Do you know what it is?

How many of theseDo you think we need for a 4' x 4' or 5' x 5' space.

Actually, I really want to cover a space of about 8' x 10'. How many of these do you think it would take to do the job?

Thanks

Shaded420 · Feb 21, 2014

monkeychief said:
I forgot. By all means omit Hans from the list because at $350 for 65w and no fans is a recipe for disappointment. That power will grow your pet Chia pretty well but will fail bad with our girls. You can have at least 440w with the previously mentioned set-up.

What the fuck are you smoking?

http://www.ledgrow.eu/Reviews.html

Please do not talk about things you know little to nothing about.

P.S: Not only has Hans spent the past 6~ years refining and optimizing his design, but he posts and documents more grows than any other LED company I'm aware of. His listed wattage for his panels is...get this, the actual wattage and not the advertised. And what the hell was with your random off-shot comment about his noiseless panel?

DCobeen · Feb 21, 2014

okay all since i added all the led's i have total of 172 actual led power. 180watt 9 band ufo with ir/uv=112 actual. 2 quad band 12 watt. 2 18 watt 3000k. when under the 3000k with ufo also they do not stretch the node space isnt there hardly. when under 4 band and ufo they stretch allot more. so i moved rotated them now. ill post 2 pics so you can see the stretch diff and the layout i also have cfl drop ins to help get more light into them. its unreal. what im saying is if you are using a small area and dont want stretch get 3000k led 3 watt's each diode. my drop ins are par38 from Menard's and they was on sale for $15.99 each and they hit the plant hard at 12" away.

Top view ---->

Side view you see front right and bottom left are way taller then the plant next to them. -->

So if you are growing a dense plant like BlueBerry you have to rotate so the 3000k led doesn't keep it so short.

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

Shaded420 said:
What the fuck are you smoking?

Lotta good apeshit, bud. There's no need for french here.

http://www.ledgrow.eu/Reviews.html

This is precisely what I'm talking about the snake oil, outrageous claims. Unless these lights somehow figured out to get around the law of physics because this light offers no advantage except for a reflector design. I understand bout the no safety glass benefit but at this wattage I venture to say the par readings should be a on par with the 45x3w no lens panel as this is giving the Hans the benefit 12leds(30%) since it only have 33 leds. Even with this we're looking 84umoles at 24" in the core center. The recommended for flowering is at least 500+. This is like showing up at the races with a 1500lbs. car with 100horses. Physics will dictate the performance reality cause no amount of bs and marketing will change the law of physics. I don't see any kind of tech. that this panel offer that will help it defy the law of physics to enhance it's inherent low power and intensity. I've used more than 30 of these panels of different sizes and shapes and can attest to u that the quality of the buds will not be very impressive. If anyone who's grown with leds' at different power and intensity level will know they will end up with airy-cotton ball buds if it doesn't receive nough light intensity such as the lower and inner canopy buds. This is basically half an A51 minus the secondary lens at half-price. The A51 will put much more intensity to the canopy with it's secondary lens. 106 or 123deg. lens also very optimistic for 65w with no secondary lens. A better deal is a standard workhorse 100x3w w/no secondary lens panel will pull 220w actual wattage vs. 65w for $146 shipped as u can find these deals everywhere online. If u must have Crees it can be had for $1 more per 3w chip so in this case $100 more and u can have the Crees or Osrams and still have 3x the power. These little panel's fine for someone who is going to do a micro grow not concerning bout yield/footprint cause to suggest these as a viable HID contender's ridiculous. If you're going to put out the same amount of time and resources to do it, wouldn't it make logical sense to maximize it's price performance and value.. Anyone can post anything. Can we get anyone in the audience that has been growing for a while take a look at those pics and claims and agree with them on the yield numbers?

Please do not talk about things you know little to nothing about.

I know exactly what I'm talking about as I've also bought this kind of bs snake oil marketing when I first got into this 6yrs ago and 30 panels later I think I've seen enough bs claims from this industry. Can u please get me an par reading for the claim footprint. I venture it will be approx. 20-30% less than the 45x3w par reading I posted.

P.S: Not only has Hans spent the past 6~ years refining and optimizing his design, but he posts and documents more grows than any other LED company I'm aware of. His listed wattage for his panels is...get this, the actual wattage and not the advertised. And what the hell was with your random off-shot comment about his noiseless panel?

Jesus, I've been playing with these things for the same amount of time doing the same canna-specific R&D, and he's still with the reds I see. If anyone who has read my posts, I always SPECIFICALLY state only actual drawn wattage, sir. I was once a sucker on that also. If I wanted to do a biased post to promote a panel I assure you it would still make more logical sense than the examples you've given. As for g/w, most leds now as long as the spec. on will usually get .5g/w without too much trouble so it comes to the cost per watt issue. Yes, these panels will pull the .5g/w+ but at 65w it's all relative and your yield will reflect this. OK, I will rephrase myself as these panels will definitely grow your pet chia very well but and also grow your meds but nowhere near the hid's. It is what it is bud. A 65w panel will only get u 65w's worth of footprint. The recommended minimum is 40-50w/sqft. so u can do the math. So here comes the important part of cost per watt. Why pay 3x as much when u can get 3x as much wattage for the same price. Yes, we see no fans to break down to break down and no low noise. So far, the fans on average are lasting over 3yrs. from my experience which brings up the question of value. Is it worth paying more and getting less. Sorry it's not a random shot but a direct statement of observations the product features vs. it price performance. I've seen and tested a lot of these tech. so it's gonna take more than fancy names and useless feature to convince me. Nothing wrong with paying for something as long as there's value-added but I see no value here. And if no fans your cup of tea. Take a look at these more sensible alternatives. These offer 3x the wattage with the same exact Crees and Osrams for the same price as your Hans. Any other questions, sir? Monkey's throwing the monkey wrench again, sorry bud. The truth's the truth. Good or bad. Unlike you, sir, I'm not here to promote a single name or product rather just sharing my actual hands-on experience and observations. If you also notice on my recommendations I try not to drop names but rather be generic in terms of options as long as the spectrum and wattage requirements are met.

http://gehl-led.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-213927114/X_Grow_II_LED_Grow_Lights.html

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

Shaded420 said:
What the fuck are you smoking?

http://www.ledgrow.eu/Reviews.html

Please do not talk about things you know little to nothing about.

P.S: Not only has Hans spent the past 6~ years refining and optimizing his design, but he posts and documents more grows than any other LED company I'm aware of. His listed wattage for his panels is...get this, the actual wattage and not the advertised. And what the hell was with your random off-shot comment about his noiseless panel?

I forgot to attach this par spec. for the mentioned 45 x3w. As u can see at 24", there's only 82umoles left. Don't know bout u but 82 is approx. 1/6 of the recommended 500-600unmoles needed for healthy bud production. Like I said, I see no special design of this panel that will allow it to defy the law of physics.

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

DCobeen said:
okay all since i added all the led's i have total of 172 actual led power. 180watt 9 band ufo with ir/uv=112 actual. 2 quad band 12 watt. 2 18 watt 3000k. when under the 3000k with ufo also they do not stretch the node space isnt there hardly. when under 4 band and ufo they stretch allot more. so i moved rotated them now. ill post 2 pics so you can see the stretch diff and the layout i also have cfl drop ins to help get more light into them. its unreal. what im saying is if you are using a small area and dont want stretch get 3000k led 3 watt's each diode. my drop ins are par38 from Menard's and they was on sale for $15.99 each and they hit the plant hard at 12" away.

Top view ----> View attachment 3001490
Side view you see front right and bottom left are way taller then the plant next to them. --> View attachment 3001491

So if you are growing a dense plant like BlueBerry you have to rotate so the 3000k led doesn't keep it so short.

The 3000k warm-whites you're using actually peaks in the yellow/red similar to the HPS which will have more stretch then the 6000k cool-whites which peaks in the blue/green better for vegging. The 6000k CW is similar to the MH spec. which is better for vegging because it promotes short inter-nodes, lateral, and foliage growth. It looks like u have plenty of reds, which is great for flowering but will cause stretching so u might want to try substituting those 3k for some 6k cool-whites. U should see less stretching and more bushy lateral growth vs. the 3k u're running now. The cool-white will also penetrate the canopy better with it's blue/green peaks.

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

Don Styln said:
Hey MonkeyChief,

You have really been cranking out some great info. Thanks for all you are sharing.

Like I always say.. Sharing's half the reward of learning.

I can't find the original post, So I will quote you from an e-mail I received...

(4) GEHL X-Grow series 126 x 3w. Each panel will give u 126x3w (six cluster) *1715 umol @ 30cm *, and 885umol @ 60cm, 447umol @ 90cm
This is phenomenal vs. the A51 XGS-190 at 1349 umol@30cm, 675 umol@60cm, and 301unol@90cm, respectively. They are able to pull these numbers using secondary lens. These are identical to a very well known brand-name for little more than 1/3 price. These should pull approx. 270w and I feel this system is the best system given the incredible par readings up to 437umoles at 3" will make it an ideal set-up for all the indoor tree guys to smile about. Please note that if u run the recommended 4 panels, you can afford to use a very aggressive 60degree lens to even focus more light into a smaller footprint that will further increase these incredible readings. This system will give u a total of 1100W+ actual led wattage will easily trump by 2x any of the claimed most powerful unit in the market like the BS Ion, Stealth 1250, BD's biggest mutt, and Lush's new big boy. The crazier thing is it does all this for bout half the price of the above mentioned names. Let me confirm the price with them but they should only be round $250-300/pc.. These guys are one of the major OEM guys making some of and one the best performing and expensive major brand-name. These guys have excellent before and after sales and are very honest in their specs.

I look these up but could not find its core footprint. Do you know what it is?

Not listed but I eyeball a solid 2x2, up to 2.5x2.5 if u spread the canopy out better via training, scrog, sog, etc.. I tend to be a little more aggressive since I use the HPS as a benchmark. For most applications u can probably get by with 25% less than my recommendation.

How many of theseDo you think we need for a 4' x 4' or 5' x 5' space.

21x3w (one cluster ) 1216 umol @ 30cm , and 415umol @ 60cm 216umol @ 90cm (sorry we only test at 30cm , 60cm and 90cm, no 45 cm )

42x3w(two clustetr)1405 umol @ 30cm , and 460umol @ 60cm , 235umol @ 90cm

84x3w(four clustetr)1439 umol @ 30cm , and 647umol @ 60cm , 357umol @ 90cm (estimated 185w pull. if yr girls are less that 24" done) Compromised jr. version. Beats Apache and A51 cause it enjoys 12 chip(17%) advantage over the previous two.
126x3w(six clustetr)1715 umol @ 30cm , and 885umol @ 60cm, 447umol @ 90cm (this will give u approx. 277W [email protected] running my recommended white spec.) Recommended.

189x3w(nine clustetr)1827 umol @ 30cm , and 1055umol @ 60cm , 587umol @ 90cm (587umol@36") this will honestly handle up to 3.5-4ft. girls.

252x3w(twelve clustetr)2817 umol @ 30cm , and 1742umol @ 60cm , 935umol @ 90cm (better for a 5x5 up to 6x6 growing indoor trees over 4ft+ at an incredible 935umoles at 36". Correct me if I'm wrong but this should make this the most powerful system running 4 as a system.)

On average they should run about half of the most powerful single or multi-panels systems currently on the market. If you're interested let me know cause I can tell u on the spec. combo's u can run to offer u even more flexibility. I think most of u who has personal experience with me know my pricing's much different with most factories because of my past relations and private company status with them.

Actually, I really want to cover a space of about 8' x 10'. How many of these do you think it would take to do the job?

8. If u don't feel u need this much then u can opt. for the 84x3w units, which would still beat the Apache and A51 numbers. Also if u want Crees or Osrams, no prob. at $1 more per 3w chip. End of the Cree/Osram issues. If you're interested u can contact Sunny direct as she's familiar with my specs. because I'm currently testing her panels.I don't want to sound like I'm endorsing them but they currently have one of the most complete line of canna-specific panels. I'm currently running them and find them on par with my other factory panels from LG, BYSEN, CT, and E-shine as well as their brand-name counterparts. At the end of the day most of these panels and makes are very compatible with each other given reputable names are used. It's just a matter of options, features, pricing, and service that sets them apart. Unfortunately most of the time it takes learning the hard way a few times to be able to separate the facts and fiction of this business. Again, any of the reputable factories or brand-name panels' fine as long as the spec. and wattage requirement's met.

Thanks

U bet. Hope it helps.

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

How many of these Do you think we need for a 4' x 4' or 5' x 5' space.

Sorry I missed this. I recommend 4 of these for up to a 5x5. Little on the aggressive side but it will definitely to the job properly especially how u like sativas, sir.

Shaded420 · Feb 22, 2014

Your wall of text crit my face...

You can gladly follow along my grow journal for updates on my "chia pets"

Where am I · Feb 22, 2014

Shaded420 said:
What the fuck are you smoking?

http://www.ledgrow.eu/Reviews.html

Please do not talk about things you know little to nothing about.

P.S: Not only has Hans spent the past 6~ years refining and optimizing his design, but he posts and documents more grows than any other LED company I'm aware of. His listed wattage for his panels is...get this, the actual wattage and not the advertised. And what the hell was with your random off-shot comment about his noiseless panel?

Interesting pictures... How tall are those plant 12 -18 inches. When I grew Amnesia Haze it was a 5 foot monster of a plant... I don't think a 65 watt panel would do it .

jartlow · Feb 22, 2014

Shaded420 said:
Your wall of text crit my face...

You can gladly follow along my grow journal for updates on my "chia pets"

Yeah no kidding.. it was super effective.

I ended up going area 51 190.. hopefully it'll be here early March!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Rollitup mobile app

Shaded420 · Feb 22, 2014

Where am I said:
Interesting pictures... How tall are those plant 12 -18 inches. When I grew Amnesia Haze it was a 5 foot monster of a plant... I don't think a 65 watt panel would do it .

Yeah, you wouldn't use a Hans panel to try to grow a 5" plant - LED's have their uses and applications, specifically for my purpose.

Making claims that they are suited best for growing chia pets is just laughable.

Where am I · Feb 22, 2014

Shaded420 said:
Yeah, you wouldn't use a Hans panel to try to grow a 5" plant - LED's have their uses and applications, specifically for my purpose.

Making claims that they are suited best for growing chia pets is just laughable.

I grow 3 - 4 ft plants normally using four 130 watt LED panels. They work great in veg. Yet one light is not enough to cover the entire plant. Once you get outside of the core footprint your density will suffer.

DCobeen · Feb 22, 2014

monkeychief said:
The 3000k warm-whites you're using actually peaks in the yellow/red similar to the HPS which will have more stretch then the 6000k cool-whites which peaks in the blue/green better for vegging. The 6000k CW is similar to the MH spec. which is better for vegging because it promotes short inter-nodes, lateral, and foliage growth. It looks like u have plenty of reds, which is great for flowering but will cause stretching so u might want to try substituting those 3k for some 6k cool-whites. U should see less stretching and more bushy lateral growth vs. the 3k u're running now. The cool-white will also penetrate the canopy better with it's blue/green peaks.

i hear what you are saying but i left 2 plants under them and the stretch didnt happen. i got stretch from every other light source im using. im not aurguing or anything i am stating a fact 2 plants same size when started side by side the ones under the 3000k did not stretch much at all. the ones under the quad spectrum stretched allot more. i got pics that show them being same size. this is a fact that i seen and tested. this was done with 2 sets of 2 so 4 plants. each time same result. i know they should have stretched but they did not.

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

Shaded420 said:
Your wall of text crit my face...

You can gladly follow along my grow journal for updates on my "chia pets"

Well, bud, you shouldn't have come at me like that and then accuse me of the one not knowing what I'm talking bout, sir. Like I said, monkey's been around and dropped a few bananas for some of those snake oil that tasted like crap so I'm just here trying to help the new people hopefully avoid taking the same nasty thing. No thanks, buddy, you go right ahead and justify your 65w for $240 panel I'll stick to my "chinese factory panels". I've seen most of those Hans journals and most of them either don't finish cause maybe people lost their interests and came to their senses or the tester can no longer bs and try to justify his/her purchase after their euphoria turned to the opposite. Oh, and let's not forget that he use a bunch of different people or names to come into these thread and start agreeing and complimenting when offering no logical reasons for those lop-side opinion. If u ask me, this is as snake oil, guerilla marketing as u can get. Where am I, the Hans panel is exactly half the wattage of your 84x's with no secondary lenses. Can u imagine growing any type of Haze with them yet alone flower them. I should ask u what u are smoking, bud. Do u realize that haze is mostly a derivative of different kinds of sativas and sativas are indigenous to tropical and sub-tropical regions meaning that they are light-intensive strain due to the equatorial locale of it's origin? You're now gonna take them and expect to flower them with 65w with no secondary lens. This guy must be related to Tesla to be playing with physics this level. What happened to Hans, I love his cars but this latest contraption here's definitely a disappointment for being one of the world's best designers and scientific minds.

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

jartlow said:
Yeah no kidding.. it was super effective.

I ended up going area 51 190.. hopefully it'll be here early March!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Rollitup mobile app

Good, I think you should be happy with it as long as u have enough wattage according to your grow area. I'm not anti brand-name as long as the value-added justifies it's brand-name price.

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

Shaded420 said:
Yeah, you wouldn't use a Hans panel to try to grow a 5" plant - LED's have their uses and applications, specifically for my purpose.

Making claims that they are suited best for growing chia pets is just laughable.

I didn't see any disclaimer on their site recommending these cute little toy lights are only suited for Chia pets and small plants. So what happens if a customer wants to grow these 4-5ft indoor trees? I don't think they're gonna discourage the potential customer to buy another brand since Hans only offer one two models and they're both powerhouses. I understand that these will grow your girls, but for the money one's much better off with other much more cost-effective alternatives. And yes, these will be just fine if quality/yield is of no concern. One is better off with a cheap brand-name like Blackstar 240 which is bout same price but will yield least twice as much, or one of the factory direct panels. I think I'm laughing more than u now along with anyone who has actual enough experience to see thru this nonsense. Like I said, if no fans your thing, you can get almost 3x as much wattage for the same price. And please don't start bout the chinese thing.

monkeychief · Feb 22, 2014

DCobeen said:
i hear what you are saying but i left 2 plants under them and the stretch didnt happen. i got stretch from every other light source im using. im not aurguing or anything i am stating a fact 2 plants same size when started side by side the ones under the 3000k did not stretch much at all. the ones under the quad spectrum stretched allot more. i got pics that show them being same size. this is a fact that i seen and tested. this was done with 2 sets of 2 so 4 plants. each time same result. i know they should have stretched but they did not.

Yes, you are right. I'm not doubting the 3k will help with the stretching, because it also has blue/green just not as much as the 6k cool-whites. I'm currently running all 3700k and it does a very good job vegging with bout 25% stretch over my 6k spec. I'm just recommending the 6k to improve the lateral growth along with a little less stretching. U are on the right track adding the 3k warm-whites though as this is why u saw the stretching stop. The 6k CW will make your girls bushier with more foliage development vs. the 3k. This also demonstrates the advantage of going toward the white spec. since it the closest to natural sunlight the benchmark for all plant light source. Better to emulate nature vs. try to re-invent the wheel.

Lighting questions.. Considering LED over hps/mh combo

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