letting them go too long for seeds?

You are unable to see that there is a difference between a female plant that has been stressed to show male flowers and a plant that naturally shows both kinds of flowers. Technically they are both hermaphrodites, but they are genetically different.

polyarcturus said:

all types of ways and im not really gonna get into but the sad fact is in order to create fem seeds you must breed a hermie,

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That is absolutely not true.

When you change a regular plant into one that shows male flowers. That does not change the genetics. I am sorry you can not get passed the fact that stress is not passed on by genetics. This has been covered ad nauseum. I am sorry you are unable to change your misinformed paradigm.

polyarcturus said:

therefore all the seeds may not have th hermie genetics and may be recessive in the rest but it is still the

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That is absolutely not true.

A plant that is stressed to make male flowers does not have anything changed genetically. Again, stress is not passed on genetically, so a female plant that is stressed to show male flowers will not be more likely to produce hermaphrodites. In fact, a feminized seed can not produce a hermaphrodite that has both X and Y chromosomes. If a feminized seed grows a plant that shows male flowers, it is most likely the result of environmental stress, not genetics. A feminized seed is no more likely to turn "hermie' than its parents.

polyarcturus said:

all fem seed are derived from hermie genetics. what matter is the process or rather path you take to get there some paths will have more herm some will have less, but all fem seed have had the herm trait in their lives.

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That is absolutely not true.
Most feminized seeds are produced by stressing a female plant to make male pollen. Again, stress can not be passed on by genetics.

polyarcturus said:

a true and pure female(less than 20% of female population from reg seeds) will never herm, and never produce balls, no matter what.

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That is absolutely not true.
I can make any female plant show male flowers.
About 100% of the females will "herm" if you stress them enough.
Some varieties of marijuana (mostly sativas) will have more non-environmentally stressed hermaphrodites (they would have both X and Y chromosomes). Hermaphrodites that have both X and Y chromosomes that are not produced by stress are pretty rare.

polyarcturus said:

i guess well have to agre to disagree it sound or rather looks as if you know what your talking about,

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I will never agree with your flawed ideas about fem seeds and hermaphrodites. You are for the most part, wildly incorrect.

polyarcturus said:

but i dont completly agree with everything you say. if a female plant has no hermie gene(by chance) it would have to be grown from regseed and barbecue it has no hermie gene it cannot produce male flowers this means it is a pure female.

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Could you post that in English? If a female plant has nor "hermie" gene it does not have to be grow from regular bag seed. You do not know what you are talking about. What do you mean by "barbecue"?

Any female plant (XX chromosomes) can be stressed to show male flowers. Let's say that female plant has no "hermie" gene. That plant absolutely can be stressed to show male flowers. The resulting seeds would be feminized. You know, the seeds that you are spreading misinformation about.

polyarcturus said:

but you are correct female male genetically xY chromosome i know this, but im not just talking about that.

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You are so wrong I am beginning to think that you are either trolling or have no idea what you are talking about. A female plant will have two X chromosomes. A male plant will have an X and a Y chromosome.

polyarcturus said:

maybe i was not as clear as water. yes this i called "self seeding". the seeds are worth a hoot, just not best breed, because seeds that are selfed to the same genetics(even if its a clone of the plant like above is implying) it will have a more likely chance to herm. if you where to take the pollen from herm plant and cross it with different genetics you would get a fem seed that can still herm, but will be less likely.

but i

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the only reason a selfed plant grows male sex organs, stamens, is the introduction of a chemical like collodial silver or another, so there is no hermie traits in the mom to give to offsprings.. it's only the chemical that forces the plant to grow male bits, no chems, no male bits, not really a true hermie pant, therefore no hermie genetics to pass along..

Female cannabis plants can sometimes produce male flowers, esp. under harsh conditions in an attempt to make sure next year's seeds are produced. It is a survival trait, some frogs and such can do it.

How much and what kind of stress is a genetic predisposition. That is, some do it easier than others. Collidal Silver, gibberic acid, or other substance can also be used in an attempt to trigger this reaction. The end of life for an unfertilized flower cluster can also be a trigger. A plant that does it easily and needs little stress to trigger is often called a "hermie". A plant that is difficult (or unable) to trigger is a normal male or female, not known to hermie.

To make feminized seeds, a female plant is triggered in some fashion. If the stress required is light, the offspring will tend to flip under similar conditions, if the stress required is more severe, the offspring will tend to also need severe treatment to trigger.

BTW, that's why when you make feminized seeds, you want the one that almost didn't flip, not the one that flipped the best.

all canabis plants have the ability to become a hermie, wether its a male dom plant that grows some female calyx or a female dom plant that grows some male flowers/pollen sacs. this ability is due to the plant NEEDING a male and female to reproduce. its a survival mechanism. now thats not to say every plant will in fact grow out to be a hermie but the ability is there.

breeders take advantage of this uniqe ability to create feminized seeds by stressing a female dom plant to the point of herming, collecting this pollen and pollinating buds on another female plant to creat offspring that contain no male chromosone, with no male chromosone the chance of the offspring being male is extremely low to null, thus creating feminized seeds. in a normal situation a female plant is polinated by a male plant which gives both chromosones (much like a human egg when fertilized by a man, the egg contains the X and Y chromosone and the offspring can be either male or female)

theres alot of incorrect information about this being spread around the internet these days so its not that anyone is wrong or their ideas are flawed but rather they are misinformed.

what it does come down to is the basic biology behind reproduction and the reproduction charecteristics of the canabis plant.

please just stop relying on forums to give accurate information because there may be some accurate information on here but for the most part its all regurgitated from some un reliable source. instead read research articles where actual biologists have done actual studies on these topics.

and just remember water droplets and tinfoil will burn your plants!! (hehehehe)

Leonardo de Garden said:

If the stress required is light, the offspring will tend to flip under similar conditions, if the stress required is more severe, the offspring will tend to also need severe treatment to trigger.

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Stress is not passed on by genetics. Stressing a plant to make fem seeds does not change the genetics at all.

Trousers said:

Stress is not passed on by genetics. Stressing a plant to make fem seeds does not change the genetics at all.

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Hammer this point home, they will get it someday.

regards,

polyarcturus said:

if a female plant has no hermie gene(by chance) it would have to be grown from regseed

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All cannabis plants are grown from ceeds. Even clones ultimately derive from plants grown from ceeds.

Very few female cannabis plants lack the ability to make male flowers "by chance"; that trait is generally selectively bred into plants.

and barbecue it has no hermie gene it cannot produce male flowers this means it is a pure female. but you are correct female male genetically xY chromosome i know this, but im not just talking about that.

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Again, all female cannabis plants "can" make male flowers; the ability to do so is hard-wired into their DNA.

Just that the tendency to do so is suppressed in some lines by human selective breeding.

racerboy71 said:

the only reason a selfed plant grows male sex organs, stamens, is the introduction of a chemical like collodial silver or another, so there is no hermie traits in the mom to give to offsprings.. it's only the chemical that forces the plant to grow male bits, no chems, no male bits, not really a true hermie pant, therefore no hermie genetics to pass along..

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thats exactly what im saying is not true. if it can herm, it has the hermie trait. i have had PLENTY meaning a few out of fair amount, i would say i did this experiment on about 20 reg bagseeds random trials and at different times, to see what "herms" some female will not herm NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO(chemicals or otherwise, unless your using hormosne or changing the gene somehow) because they do not have that gene out of those 20 probably 6 of them hermed by themselves after a given time 4 where probably males most of the rest female and fucked with hard core. when it come to bagseeds im consistnenly popping them and fucking them up, because this is how good genetic matierial is found, most lowgrade bagseed has not raised my eyebrows occasionally one or 2 will produce something nice(if they herm at al after some harsh treatment or at any time i toss em) im just waiting for one that top notch but i have not run across her yet .(from low grade bag seed high grade is another story cause i got some keepers)

Jogro said:

All cannabis plants are grown from ceeds. Even clones ultimately derive from plants grown from ceeds.

Very few female cannabis plants lack the ability to make male flowers "by chance"; that trait is generally selectively bred into plants.




Again, all female cannabis plants "can" make male flowers; the ability to do so is hard-wired into their DNA.

Just that the tendency to do so is suppressed in some lines by human selective breeding.

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well this is where we disagree i believe it is a gene.

also i would like to point out to anyone here actually talking about about this shit, if we are all on the same level, why are still going back to 101

basically this discussion has changed from what it started to what it is and that is the hermaphroditic gene and whether this gene is hardwired or if plant can be born with out. all the bullshit MJ is diocious and fucking how traits passed on... were past that we all know how that works we all probably read the same books moving forward, is there a correct answer to the hermaphroditic trait? hmm none of us probably have access to the tech and on top of that the research pretty much ends here so there is no answer.

like i said agree to disagree, because neither of us is right we are only going off what is logical based on the facts presented. multiple answers and theory's happens all the time.

have a nice day every one quite wasting so much typing time on long answers about genetics actually, i fucking hate having to try and describe everything in so many words on the net... too fucking complicated breeding is such a fucking broad subject.

polyarcturus said:

also i would like to point out to anyone here actually talking about about this shit, if we are all on the same level, why are still going back to 101

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You do not understand the basics. Your opinion that stress is passed on by genetics is not true.
Calling me a troll does not make you less wrong.

polyarcturus said:

basically this discussion has changed from what it started to what it is and that is the hermaphroditic gene and whether this gene is hardwired or if plant can be born with out. all the bullshit MJ is diocious and fucking how traits passed on... were past that we all know how that works we all probably read the same books moving forward, is there a correct answer to the hermaphroditic trait? hmm none of us probably have access to the tech and on top of that the research pretty much ends here so there is no answer.

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You do not know what you are talking about. Can you explain what a "hermaphrodite trait" is?
You do have access to the information, you just choose to ignore it

polyarcturus said:

like i said agree to disagree, because neither of us is right we are only going off what is logical based on the facts presented. multiple answers and theory's happens all the time.

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Your opinion that stress is passed on genetically is not true. You are ignoring facts and trying to present your opinion as true. It isn't, not even close. You can disagree with facts all you want, that doesn't change them. This information has been around for years.

polyarcturus said:

have a nice day every one quite wasting so much typing time on long answers about genetics actually, i fucking hate having to try and describe everything in so many words on the net... too fucking complicated breeding is such a fucking broad subject.

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Originally Posted by Leonardo de GardenIf the stress required is light, the offspring will tend to flip under similar conditions, if the stress required is more severe, the offspring will tend to also need severe treatment to trigger.

Stress is not passed on by genetics. Stressing a plant to make fem seeds does not change the genetics at all.

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he wasnt saying that stress is passed on by genetics he was simply saying that the stress TRIGGERS are passed down which he is 100% right. if a plant is more suseptable to hermie due to a particular lighting situation its offspring are going to be suceptable to hermie in the same lighting situation.

if a plant MOTHER has blue eyes then baby has the chance to get blue eyes.

people need to stop jumping on people and try and understand what they are saying before accusing them of being incorect.

RetiredMatthebrute said:

he wasnt saying that stress is passed on by genetics he was simply saying that the stress TRIGGERS are passed down which he is 100% right. if a plant is more suseptable to hermie due to a particular lighting situation its offspring are going to be suceptable to hermie in the same lighting situation.

if a plant MOTHER has blue eyes then baby has the chance to get blue eyes.

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That is my whole point. Stress triggers that exist in the parents can/will be passed on to offspring. Stress does not create those triggers.

polyarcturus said:

do i really have to go through and answer all of your questions? no i dont. your putting words in my mouth so to speak EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID IS CORRECT OR IN THE LATTER DISCUSSION ON HERMAPHRODITIC TRAITS/GENES THEORY.

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No it isn't. You implied that stress is passed on genetically.
You don't even have a basic understanding of what you are talking about. If you want to throw out wildly incorrect opinions and not back them up, then go away.

polyarcturus said:

you really look like a fucking troll right now trying to make me look bad and twist my words,

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When you counter an very incorrect opinion, it is not trolling. I am not trying to make you look bad, you are doing that your self. You are calling names, I am debating and trying to be civil to someone that is rude and wrong.

You said that fem seeds are more likely to "herm." That implies that stress is passed on through genetics. You are wrong and have not offered anything to back up your opinion.

polyarcturus said:

but anyone with half a brain would see what your writing and know your fucking bullshitting out your ass,

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If you think that is true, why not counter my ideas instead of calling me names and acting like a child? Calling me a bullshitter does not make you correct.

polyarcturus said:

hell even you know it.

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I know that you are not able to back up your opinion. I know that you would rather call me names than debate an issue.

polyarcturus said:

get mad i want you mad cause your just a noname on the net to me and many others.

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I prefer to be unknown. You want attention like a small, lonely child. You are wrong about fem seeds, get over it.

polyarcturus said:

next time you want to PM me to insult me, dont waste your time. you got something to say do it in public punk, cause ill say it right here, you a fuckn DUMBFUCK.

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I would rather this conversation remain civil. If you want to trade insults, I think private messages would be better. Trading insults with a person such as yourself can be fun, but it is not productive and off topic.

If you would like to defend your terrible opinions on fem seeds, let's go, son.

polyarcturus said:

thats exactly what im saying is not true. if it can herm, it has the hermie trait.

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Since ALL female cannabis plants are genetically capable of making male flowers, by this (functionally useless) definition, all cannabis plants have "the hermie trait".

i have had PLENTY meaning a few out of fair amount, i would say i did this experiment on about 20 reg bagseeds random trials and at different times, to see what "herms" some female will not herm NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO(chemicals or otherwise, unless your using hormosne or changing the gene somehow)

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I don't think you can draw any rigorous conclusion from a sample of 20 ceeds of uncertain lineage.

In any case, as you say, some appropriately inbred drug strains won't have females make male flowers under any ordinary condition short of manipulating their sex hormone content. However, I don't believe there are any cannabis strains that will not express male flowers with appropriate treatment with gibberellic acid.

Note, that I don't think its impossible to create a strain like this, either by selective breeding with mutant plants, or by genetically modifying an existing plant, just that any plant that can't make male flowers, may not be able to make ANY flower, and that such a plant would not be able to reproduce sexually. I'd add that any plant that can't make flowers is also probably useless for medical purposes.

And to complicate this simplistic discussion, there is more to it than just "male flowers" and "female flowers". There is such thing as in-between flowers (eg "bananas" that have the shape of female flowers, but still make pollen), and there are also male flowers that are sterile.

Jogro said:

Since ALL female cannabis plants are genetically capable of making male flowers, by this (functionally useless) definition, all cannabis plants have "the hermie trait".


I don't think you can draw any rigorous conclusion from a sample of 20 ceeds of uncertain lineage.

In any case, as you say, some appropriately inbred drug strains won't have females make male flowers under any ordinary condition short of manipulating their sex hormone content. However, I don't believe there are any cannabis strains that will not express male flowers with appropriate treatment with gibberellic acid.

Note, that I don't think its impossible to create a strain like this, either by selective breeding with mutant plants, or by genetically modifying an existing plant, just that any plant that can't make male flowers, may not be able to make ANY flower, and that such a plant would not be able to reproduce sexually. I'd add that any plant that can't make flowers is also probably useless for medical purposes.

And to complicate this simplistic discussion, there is more to it than just "male flowers" and "female flowers". There is such thing as in-between flowers (eg "bananas" that have the shape of female flowers, but still make pollen), and there are also male flowers that are sterile.

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once again we just simply disagree on your main points, i dont think all female cannabis plant can hermie. and imo 20 plants is a pretty good sample but that comes from veiw point which is not that objective, not to mention the hundreds of bagseeds ive popped and killed in various stages of life.

but i like your Guff jogro at least everything you have said can be backed up to a degree. as far as gibrellic acid and cholchine, ive personally have not had the chance to play with either, but they are known to bend the rules, as they are hormones. and if you really want to complicated things (talkn about in between flowers lol) lets talk about the possibilitys with simple manipulations in vitro using tissue cultures

i dont really want to go there, lol, anyways im pretty much done on this thread its turned into a mash of opinions im not all for that. be easy jogro.

polyarcturus said:

i dont think all female cannabis plant can hermie

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Well, you're entitled to your opinion, irrespective of its accuracy.

Again, they all "can hermie" under the right circumstances, just as all male humans "can" grow breasts under the right circumstances.

imo 20 plants is a pretty good sample

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Considering that there are hundreds of strains out there, and that (by definition) you don't know the provenance of the bagseed you're using, again, I don't think 20 is enough of a sample to make any kind of generalization about what cannabis plants can and can't do.

That's doubly true since by your own admission you've never even tried the only way that's assured to put male flowers on hermie-resistant female plants.

as far as gibrellic acid and cholchine, ive personally have not had the chance to play with either, but they are known to bend the rules, as they are hormones.

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First of all, colchicine isn't a hormone, its a microtubule inhibitor. The point of colchicine isn't to create hermie plants, but rather polyploid ones (ie increased chromosome copy count). Some hacks dabble with this, thinking polyploid plants are more potent, but I'm not really convinced they are, nor am I aware of any reason why a serious breeder would want to use this particular agent.

Gibberelic acid is a plant hormone that can affect sexual expression. If you're never even tried it, then I don't see how you can maintain that "you don't think all female plants can hermie". This agent doesn't "bend the rules" it PROVES the rule. . .namely that you can make any female plant create a few male flowers, if you know what you're doing. There are other agents that can work too (eg colloidal silver, etc).

and if you really want to complicated things (talkn about in between flowers lol) lets talk about the possibilitys with simple manipulations in vitro using tissue cultures
i dont really want to go there, lol,

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With due respect, I've actually done tissue culture. . . successfully. . .with a variety of different cell lines, though not with cannabis.

Somehow, not only do I not believe that you have any experience with it whatsoever, I really don't think you know what's involved, nor what can be done with it. From where I sit "manipulation" of in-vitro lines is not "simple", at least not if you're talking about any sort of genetic re-arrangement (and presumably you are).

But feel free to prove me wrong, and expound on what you think you know about the subject. I'd love to hear it.

What I'll say on this is that I can imagine many good reasons to play with cannabis tissue culture, but virtually none of them applicable to home growers.

dumbassarcturus said:

ok bro. but my statements weren't anywhere near what you just said, i was talking about selfed seeds, uh not fem seed where did you get that shit from?

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And you were wrong about that too. Again, most of the varieties of marijuana available from seed companies have been selfed at some point. Why don't we see tons of hermaphrodites in these varieties? If you are talking about selfed seeds, you are also talking about fem seeds. Selfed seeds are by definition fem seeds, unless the plant in question is a hermaphrodite with both chromosomes. You can't seem to get past the fact that stress does not change dna.

dumbassarcturus said:

once again, the proverbial, putting words in my mouth thing. and your gonna try and say things like this in PM? quite wasting your time my man, i know what i said and is not what you imply quite trying to twist my words son.

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You are not smart enough to understand what is going on.
Run along and play.

polyarcturus said:

i guess well have to agre to disagree it sound or rather looks as if you know what your talking about, but i dont completly agree with everything you say. if a female plant has no hermie gene(by chance) it would have to be grown from regseed and barbecue it has no hermie gene it cannot produce male flowers this means it is a pure female. but you are correct female male genetically xY chromosome i know this, but im not just talking about that.

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Not to be offensive, and i know this post is from a long time ago. But if you could, please inform me of a plant that is incapable of self pollinating. In the event that there is one i would like to research how it has lived in the wild. Yes, i know the birds and the bees assist with pollination. I mean a plat that is completely incapable of producing female pistils and/or male stamen on the same plant. Almost every fruiting or flowering plants in the wild that i can think of produce some sort of seed or spore no matter what. Thats what in leadrned way back in highschool biology. Im not saying your wrong, Ive just never seen a plant that will not reproduce by itself, given conditions. If you think about it there were any plants that couldn't self reproduce they would be doomed for extinction at some point.